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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics B58 (M240i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning M240i Rev Jumping on Upshifts

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      06-26-2018, 04:40 PM   #1
TheoK
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Hi Everyone,

I just picked up a 2018 M240i not too long ago in RWD and Manual transmission. I noticed that when im driving aggressively when I go to upshift at mid to high rpms, the revs sometimes jump up. Anywhere from 500 rpms to 1000 rpms. At first I thought I might be leaving my foot on the gas but after doing it a few more times and consciously taking my foot of the gas before pushing the clutch in it still does it. Also im 29 and have been driving manual since I was 16. I read others have this issue and people seem to think its the laggy drive by wire, heavy flywheel, residual boost after taking foot off the gas and a slow closing wastegate. The master tech at the dealership said there are no bulletins and probably due to the drive by wire.

Anybody else with a manual have this issue?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Theo

Last edited by TheoK; 07-18-2018 at 12:09 PM..
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      06-26-2018, 05:34 PM   #2
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Sounds like maybe the built in rev matching.
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      06-27-2018, 12:04 AM   #3
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I have run into this before, and in my last car the reason was to not close the throttle too quickly on WOT to throttle off. This would cause a rich condition. By holding the throttle just a little longer, and thus holding or even slightly raising rpm you can avoid that condition.
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      06-27-2018, 01:49 AM   #4
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I have this rev jump happen sometimes. I think it is related to the rev matching, as the throttle is not that laggy (no worse than the N54 in the 135i I had) and on throttle release the direct injectors will not leave any residual fuel to be injected even if the throttle blade hasn’t fully closed, so even with excess boost the engine couldn’t increase in speed without fuel.

I have been meaning to check if it does it with DSC Off, as rev matching is disabled in that mode.
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      06-27-2018, 01:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knyghtryda View Post
I have run into this before, and in my last car the reason was to not close the throttle too quickly on WOT to throttle off. This would cause a rich condition. By holding the throttle just a little longer, and thus holding or even slightly raising rpm you can avoid that condition.
Thanks for this info, next time I will try letting off the throttle a bit before I shift and see if it works!!
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      06-27-2018, 01:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
I have this rev jump happen sometimes. I think it is related to the rev matching, as the throttle is not that laggy (no worse than the N54 in the 135i I had) and on throttle release the direct injectors will not leave any residual fuel to be injected even if the throttle blade hasn’t fully closed, so even with excess boost the engine couldn’t increase in speed without fuel.

I have been meaning to check if it does it with DSC Off, as rev matching is disabled in that mode.
Yeah I was also thinking about the rev matching feature. I wonder if there is a way to disable it in sport or sport+ without fully taking traction off?
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      06-27-2018, 07:52 PM   #7
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Sorry read through the post more carefully and if the rpm is going up without touching the gas then it's most definitely something to do with rev matching. Does this still happen if you turn off rev match by completely turning off traction control?

Last edited by kivyee; 06-27-2018 at 08:00 PM..
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      06-27-2018, 08:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kivyee View Post
Sorry read through the post more carefully and if the rpm is going up without touching the gas then it's most definitely something to do with rev matching. Does this still happen if you turn off rev match by completely turning off traction control?
I have not tried taking the rev matching off and seeing if it happens. I am still under break in period at the moment and I only figured out this does this because I have punched it a few times (I couldn't resist waiting till 2000 kms to see how it accelerates lol ) but now that i got it out of my system and once break in is done I will try it again with the traction fully off.

Btw, I see that you drive a 135i with DCT. I use to have a 135i with DCT also, such a wicked car especially with that Dual Clutch.
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      06-28-2018, 09:50 AM   #9
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Yeah the DCT was very nice in the car - too bad the135i's are starting to get old. Hence I'm picking up a 15 235i. Need some factory warranty goodness . Hope the ZF8 doesn't disappoint!
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      07-07-2018, 04:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knyghtryda View Post
I have run into this before, and in my last car the reason was to not close the throttle too quickly on WOT to throttle off. This would cause a rich condition. By holding the throttle just a little longer, and thus holding or even slightly raising rpm you can avoid that condition.
Sorry but not sure if I am reading this right now that I read over it, but the way I read it is you're saying to let off the throttle a bit before fully letting got of the throttle to switch gears?
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      07-10-2018, 01:28 PM   #11
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Little bit of an update guys. When fully disabling traction control it still does the rev jumping on an upshift. Really sad!
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      07-10-2018, 02:21 PM   #12
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Another update. Letting off the throttle a bit before shifting does work!
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      07-10-2018, 02:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kivyee View Post
Yeah the DCT was very nice in the car - too bad the135i's are starting to get old. Hence I'm picking up a 15 235i. Need some factory warranty goodness . Hope the ZF8 doesn't disappoint!
Its really really great for what it is (slushbox) I am still surprised everytime I drive the car.
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      07-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoKiatos View Post
Another update. Letting off the throttle a bit before shifting does work!
Sounds like it could that you were clutching a little too quickly...If you disengage the clutch before you let up on gas then rpms will shoot up.
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      07-10-2018, 02:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
Its really really great for what it is (slushbox) I am still surprised everytime I drive the car.
Yeah I've only had a day to drive the car so far but I can't say I feel a significant difference in shift speed between the dct and the zf8. The shifts are harder in the dct at full throttle and S shift mode, but a smoother shift is not necessarily a bad thing!
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      07-12-2018, 09:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kivyee View Post
Sounds like it could that you were clutching a little too quickly...If you disengage the clutch before you let up on gas then rpms will shoot up.
No its when you go to shift really quick that it happens. Im always fully letting go of the gas but if I have wide open throttle and let go of the gas completely to push the clutch in thats when it rev jumps. But if I let off the throttle a bit before fully letting go (instead of letting go of the gas from wide open throttle) then it doesnt rev jump. Something definitely wrong with this tuning or whatever it is because I should be able to let go of the gas when im at WOT without having it rev jump.
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      07-18-2018, 02:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoKiatos View Post
Hi Everyone,

I just picked up a 2018 M240i not too long ago in RWD and Manual transmission. I noticed that when im driving aggressively when I go to upshift at mid to high rpms, the revs sometimes jump up. Anywhere from 500 rpms to 1000 rpms. At first I thought I might be leaving my foot on the gas but after doing it a few more times and consciously taking my foot of the gas before pushing the clutch in it still does it. Also im 29 and have been driving manual since I was 16. I read others have this issue and people seem to think its the laggy drive by wire, heavy flywheel, residual boost after taking foot off the gas and a slow closing wastegate. The master tech at the dealership said there are no bulletins and probably due to the drive by wire.

Anybody else with a manual have this issue?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Theo
Thanks for posting about this issue. I have been meaning to post about it for a while but have been too busy with work to get on the forums. I have had my 2018 M240i for 7 months now and have about 9k miles on it today. I took the car in for an oil change in mid May around 5k rpms (have taken a few long trips since). Prior to this service, I never had any issues with up-shifts, and the car behaved like the many manuals I have had when shifting under load.

While in for service in May, the dealership updated the car with the latest software. On the drive home I noticed that the rev-matching was changed for downshifts and it finally worked as one would think it should have from day 1. Prior to this update, the car would not rev-match if you went down more than 1 gear at a time. Now the car will rev-match every time. Example, before if I was at cruising at low rpms in 5th gear and down shifted directly from 5-3 it would not rev match. Also, if you depressed the clutch and went 5-4-3 while the clutch was engaged, it would rev match from 5-4 but not 4-3. Post update, it rev matches in every situation, on every gear change. This was the good part about the software update.

Now the bad. A few days after this update (as i don't drive like a hoonigan all the time), on up-shifts under higher load, the car would surge in rpms as you described. On shifts above ~5k rpm under load, the following events would happen:

1) Let off the gas to start the gear change 2) Engage the clutch 3)RPM's would momentarily drop 100ish RPM as the engine starts decelerating, then jump up 500ish RPM while changing gears 4) Disengage the clutch 5) Back on the gas

This was extremely repeatable, and not an issue prior to the update. It is also more severe in sport than comfort mode. Another side effect of this issue is that it made it more difficult to get the car into the next gear on up-shifts. I contacted the dealer, took the shop foreman on a ride, and he confirmed that it is not normal or intended behavior. They took a data log from my car, a video, and sent it off to BMW.

Fast forward to the end of June, the foreman called me back and told me they got a new software package and installed it on a car they had on their lot and it fixed the issue. I took my car in, got the new software, and it is much better in comfort and sport mode. It is still not 100% as I would expect, as the car still seems to hang a bit during up-shifts under load, but in no longer jumped to a higher rpm. That said, there is one time it did still do it, but this was in Sport+, which I do not go in often, so it appears it is not completely solved.

To me it appears to be related to the wastegate timing, almost as if the car is not relieving pressure fast enough during the gear change. It isn't driver error and related to a clutch/throttle timing issue because if you engaged the clutch before letting off the throttle fully, the rpm's would not momentarily decrease and then increase again. Also, you, myself, and the shop foreman were all able to reproduce it, so it is independent of driver. What also leads me to believe that it is related to boost/wastegate timing is that when you do complete a shift and stay on it when it occurs, the car is viscous when you get back on it, similar to a powershift where it maintains full boost during the shift. While this is fun and exhilarating, I can't imagine it is good for longevity of the powertrain.

So bottom line is you are not alone, it is a repeatable event, and it is not intended behavior. Now that I see I am not the only person with this issue, I will also go back to the dealer after I test it out a few more times to see if the issue is still there in Sport+ mode only now, and then follow back up with the dealer.

My suggestion is to take your car in, explain the issue, and ask for the latest software update. The worst part is that this is an issue that did not exist, was created, and now they can't seem to fix it 100%, at least not yet. It just baffles/frustrates me as this was not a problem when I originally got the car, but now it is. One would think that they would just compare the software versions, isolate the changes, and then correct the problem. For those that do not have this issue, I would suspect it may be that you are on a different software version. Prior to this, I still had the original software from when I took delivery last October. Also, I do have a video of this, I just need to figure out how to post it online to this forum.

~ J

Last edited by jt8307; 07-18-2018 at 02:33 AM..
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      07-18-2018, 12:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt8307 View Post
Thanks for posting about this issue. I have been meaning to post about it for a while but have been too busy with work to get on the forums. I have had my 2018 M240i for 7 months now and have about 9k miles on it today. I took the car in for an oil change in mid May around 5k rpms (have taken a few long trips since). Prior to this service, I never had any issues with up-shifts, and the car behaved like the many manuals I have had when shifting under load.

While in for service in May, the dealership updated the car with the latest software. On the drive home I noticed that the rev-matching was changed for downshifts and it finally worked as one would think it should have from day 1. Prior to this update, the car would not rev-match if you went down more than 1 gear at a time. Now the car will rev-match every time. Example, before if I was at cruising at low rpms in 5th gear and down shifted directly from 5-3 it would not rev match. Also, if you depressed the clutch and went 5-4-3 while the clutch was engaged, it would rev match from 5-4 but not 4-3. Post update, it rev matches in every situation, on every gear change. This was the good part about the software update.

Now the bad. A few days after this update (as i don't drive like a hoonigan all the time), on up-shifts under higher load, the car would surge in rpms as you described. On shifts above ~5k rpm under load, the following events would happen:

1) Let off the gas to start the gear change 2) Engage the clutch 3)RPM's would momentarily drop 100ish RPM as the engine starts decelerating, then jump up 500ish RPM while changing gears 4) Disengage the clutch 5) Back on the gas

This was extremely repeatable, and not an issue prior to the update. It is also more severe in sport than comfort mode. Another side effect of this issue is that it made it more difficult to get the car into the next gear on up-shifts. I contacted the dealer, took the shop foreman on a ride, and he confirmed that it is not normal or intended behavior. They took a data log from my car, a video, and sent it off to BMW.

Fast forward to the end of June, the foreman called me back and told me they got a new software package and installed it on a car they had on their lot and it fixed the issue. I took my car in, got the new software, and it is much better in comfort and sport mode. It is still not 100% as I would expect, as the car still seems to hang a bit during up-shifts under load, but in no longer jumped to a higher rpm. That said, there is one time it did still do it, but this was in Sport+, which I do not go in often, so it appears it is not completely solved.

To me it appears to be related to the wastegate timing, almost as if the car is not relieving pressure fast enough during the gear change. It isn't driver error and related to a clutch/throttle timing issue because if you engaged the clutch before letting off the throttle fully, the rpm's would not momentarily decrease and then increase again. Also, you, myself, and the shop foreman were all able to reproduce it, so it is independent of driver. What also leads me to believe that it is related to boost/wastegate timing is that when you do complete a shift and stay on it when it occurs, the car is viscous when you get back on it, similar to a powershift where it maintains full boost during the shift. While this is fun and exhilarating, I can't imagine it is good for longevity of the powertrain.

So bottom line is you are not alone, it is a repeatable event, and it is not intended behavior. Now that I see I am not the only person with this issue, I will also go back to the dealer after I test it out a few more times to see if the issue is still there in Sport+ mode only now, and then follow back up with the dealer.

My suggestion is to take your car in, explain the issue, and ask for the latest software update. The worst part is that this is an issue that did not exist, was created, and now they can't seem to fix it 100%, at least not yet. It just baffles/frustrates me as this was not a problem when I originally got the car, but now it is. One would think that they would just compare the software versions, isolate the changes, and then correct the problem. For those that do not have this issue, I would suspect it may be that you are on a different software version. Prior to this, I still had the original software from when I took delivery last October. Also, I do have a video of this, I just need to figure out how to post it online to this forum.

~ J
Hi J!

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this! As seen we have the same issue but I just got my car a month ago so it was really crazy for me to hear that your car never did this when you first got it but after they had updated it thats when the issue started. I don't know if my car has all the updated software but I did pick it up June 15th so Im assuming it had everything up to date as of that date. Mine does it every time when im on WOT and I let go of the gas completely to shift. As someone said above, if you let off the throttle a second or so before you're going to shift and then fully let go when you're about to shift it doesn't do the rev jumping.

I took the master tech for a ride yesterday at the local dealership and he saw that it does it and I have an appointment with him on Friday so he can start a case for me and come up with a solution.

I will keep everyone updated on what happens. I think it's just a matter of everyone going to the dealership that has this issue and if there are many cases put in by the dealerships then BMW will come up with more software updates (which I am sure they are going to do either way).

If you can figure out how to post that video it wold be awesome!

Hopefully in a month or so there is a new update and our cars will run how they should run!
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      07-25-2018, 04:23 PM   #19
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So a little update guys. Got a software update done today and it's still doing the exact same thing. Really don't know what to do at this point. Makes the car very unenjoyable to drive.
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      07-30-2018, 10:37 PM   #20
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I investigated this a bit more and I agree it is still not fixed on my car. It may be slightly better, but it still has the same behavior. I am going to raise this issue at my dealer again as my car goes in for service soon. Maybe we will have a bit more leverage since multiple people are having the same issue?

Any advice out there from people on getting more attention to an issue like this? The basic jive I get from the dealer is that they can't alter the software themselves ( which is understandable), so their only option is to install what they get. At what point do you elevate this to BMW NA?
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      07-31-2018, 12:58 PM   #21
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Just some food for thought but does anyone know for sure if the Dinan Stage 1 tune would fix this issue?

Also, if they can't fix this issue in a decent time frame then what are the chances we could tell BMW to take them back and get us automatic ones? As much as I like the manual transmission are we suppose to just sit here and drive our car without enjoying them due to this issue and wait around for BMW to come up with a fix?

None of us paid to have these issues and this is definitely not the car we paid so much for so if they can't fix it they should take it back!
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      08-08-2018, 09:37 PM   #22
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I just made it through break-in and had this exact thing happen on my first couple pulls. Chalked it up to it having been a month of slow driving and being out of practice. Pretty disappointing to see all this. I mainly seem to only notice it going from 2nd to 3rd. The rpms will hang it seems and dont drop nearly as fast as they should when letting off the gas, making for a really sloppy shift.

I was almost wondering if the car was thinking you are going into the gear you are leaving and its holding the rpms there for the rev matching? Like it is picking up the sensor in the gate as you leave 2 instead of enter 3. If that makes sense...
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