[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by replicat

Great debate gentlemen. Both of you guys had great points. In the end I had the scoring in favor of Jussi. The knowledge that man has is remarkable, the facts about different manufacturers keep pouring out.
Also VAG is the GMC/FMC of Germany, they capitalize their profits on ideas that aren't theirs to begin with.

IF they were facts, I would be impressed as well. Unfortunatley the bulk of his posts are opinions presented as facts. See the tail end of the E60 M5 vs E92 M3 thread, where he refers to the S2000, widely considered to be one of the best handlign cars on the market, as a 'ricer' car with 'terrible handling'.

-Adam

[JK42]

You see 'widely considered' is an opinion presented as fact, as well.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by JK42

You see 'widely considered' is an opinion presented as fact, as well.

Best regards,

Jussi

No it's not. I'm stating a fact that there is a consensus among enthusiasts and professionals.

-Adam

edit: Furthermore, when you present opinions as facts, they are solely your own. When I say 'widley considered' even if you beleive that's an opinion, it's the opinion of many experts, not just one person.

[JK42]

And the S2000 does nordschleife in 8:39. So much for the "excellent handling". It's probably the most over-hyped vehicle in the history of automobiles, due to it's engine. Nice in it's own category, I admit, but nothing I would ever spend my money on, or recommend to anyone for any purpose.

Best regards,

Jussi

[JK42]

And by the way, the bulk of my posts have nothing to do with opinions, as you claimed. They have to do with information regarding the upcoming M3, while posters such as you try to constantly sidetrack the discussion and discredit me and commit personal attacks by such statements as above. I will ignore your comments in the future. Most of the automotive professionals who read this forum and who I have recommended it to, do not have the time or the inclination to wade through BS such as this, so I'm not going to contribute by adding the amount of it. These people use the forum as a tool to obtain information on the new M3 that even BMW internally poorly disseminates to just "lowly salespeople". These personal attacks take away from the general quality of the forum and make the signal-to-noise ratio worse.

P.S.

Jason: Didn't get the Z4 M Coupé for this weekend, damn, it was hauled up north for a potential customer to test drive. Which is just as well, as it seems that we are having the worst fall storm as of yet right during Saturday and Sunday when I could have had the time to take it to the track.

Regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Wow! Jussi, I know that you are overall, a very knowledgeable car enthusiast, but the S2000 has superb handling and thats all there is to it. The engine is terrible, but please don't take away from the handling of that car, we all know it is great. Maybe not as great as other cars above it in class, but for $30K its the best car for the money.

[meruyailir]

Guys, it's all relative. For someone who only drives a bus in his life, Camry will feel great handling, while we all know it's not, relative to our getting used to driving a 3er.

Man, I can't wait for E92 M3 ...

[JK42]

Replicat, for it's engine, if it had a handling worth a cent, it wouldn't creep down the Nordschleife at 8:39. I have had a chance to test drive it (on a track setting) and it truly was nothing special in the handling department. Meruyailir is right here.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by JK42

And the S2000 does nordschleife in 8:39. So much for the "excellent handling". It's probably the most over-hyped vehicle in the history of automobiles, due to it's engine. Nice in it's own category, I admit, but nothing I would ever spend my money on, or recommend to anyone for any purpose.

Best regards,

Jussi

First, handling isn't about speed. A car can handle well without being 'fast' or having a high 'top speed', take the Elise for example.

You claim your car handles excellent, yet it's 6 years newer, has more hp, and only runs 4s faster?

How many $30k cars ran the Nordschleife in 8:39 in 2001 when the car debuted?

Once again, I'm not saying the car hasn't been overhyped, and I personally wouldn't buy it either, but saying that it's a 'terrible handling' 'ricer' is ill informed and contrary to the facts and opinions of professionals and automotive journalists around the world.

-Adam

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by JK42

And by the way, the bulk of my posts have nothing to do with opinions, as you claimed. They have to do with information regarding the upcoming M3, while posters such as you try to constantly sidetrack the discussion and discredit me and commit personal attacks by such statements as above.

First, posting about your 130i is off topic and has nothing to do with the E90 M3 to begin with. Secondly, I asked you a simple question about why you chose the 130 over the R32, in reply you present an opinion and present it as a fact by saying all VAG products have inferior engines. When I call you out on it, you continue to bring the conversatino further and fruther off track instead of just admitting that it's just your opionin and the facts don't really jive with it.

I have only pointed your bias, which is my opinion and let others make the descsion for themselves.

Originally Posted by JK42

I will ignore your comments in the future. Most of the automotive professionals who read this forum and who I have recommended it to, do not have the time or the inclination to wade through BS such as this, so I'm not going to contribute by adding the amount of it.

I don't really give a damn if you read my posts or not. Nothing that I say is BS. If you want to beleive that it is, it's a free world, and I can't stop you.

Originally Posted by JK42

These people use the forum as a tool to obtain information on the new M3 that even BMW internally poorly disseminates to just "lowly salespeople". These personal attacks take away from the general quality of the forum and make the signal-to-noise ratio worse.

I'm not attacking you personally, I'm merely trying to stop the flow of bad information.

-Adam

[NoelSmart]

s2000 is overrated. I regularly trounced them at autocross in my mx-5 Miata I used to own. The only mods were coilovers, stickier tires and an intake. My Miata was a 2000, cost almost $10,000 USD less than s2000 even after mods. I think this settles any comments about the s2000s handling. It handles well, but it is no BMW, especially if a Mazda with a few mods can hand it its ass.

[replicat]

Both the s2000 and the miata were discussed in another thread, and it was said that they are both excellent handling cars. But yes, the S2K is extremely over rated, Im not denying that, im just saying its not a "terrible ricer car"

Just a little info, any car with coilovers and sticky tires will destroy another car in autocross. ANY CAR. PERIOD. Tires and stiffer suspension is all you need to be competitive at an AutoX.

Also, meruyailir is right, handling is all relative. From one person to another.

And Jussi, you say post so much about how the proffesionals you recommend, come and read this forum. I was the one who showed you this forum! And your negativity is taking away from the fun & community that forums bring. Just be nice.

[Jason]

Please everyone just play nice. We're all here for the same purpose - enthusiasm for the new M3 so there's no need to argue.

We created this place to be a fun place to come and chat about cars so please keep the negativity away from here. If you don't have anything good to say, kindly keep it to yourself. This applies to EVERYONE.

Thanks

[replicat]

Jason rock on bud :rocks:

[JK42]

Agreed, just going to say this on the s2000: the automotive press isn't the holy bible on cars either. They make mistakes. And it seems like several people here seem to agree with me that the s2000 indeed is and has been overhyped. I many cases automotive press "professionals" don't know jack about the cars or engines that they are test driving and writing about. Just look at programs like Top Gear and see how biased they are towards British cars. Or the magazine articles on the Z4 M Coupé when it first came out which claimed it had the same gearbox as the M3 (it didn't) and did not include any of the technical details, or got them all wrong. Reporters and writers are usually the biggest BS artists in almost any professional field.

But that's that. Off topic.

Best regards,

Jussi

Some good points Jussi. I think cars like the S2000 get very hyped up because those cars are always going to be the darlings of the automative enthusiast world - they're very basic throw-back type "sports" cars. This day in age with every new car coming out being loaded with all types of electronics in the car and fancy traction control etc.., I can understand why then cars like the S2000 are so hyped.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by JK42

The conversation turned into talk about the E92 M3, but I suppose it was off-topic at first.

All VAG products do have inferior engines in their class as I have pointed out. Turbodiesels and gasoline engines alike. They weight more, they produce less power and torque, engine by engine, model by model. It's a fact that can be verified just by looking at the numbers. Weight - fuel consumption - power output - torque.

Regards,

Jussi

That simply isn't true. I'll give just one example because to prove you wrong for everyone to see.

Compare the S3's 2.0T and the 130iM's N52.

Using your criteria and 'just the numbers' as you indiciate. The cars both cost roughly the same and are roughly the same size. The Audi's engine makes the same power, more torque (at a lower RPM, and across a wider range) and the engine weighs less. I'm not saying that the Audi engine is superior but simply that it's not inferior.

Specification: 130iM vs S3
----------------------------------
Length: 4227 4210
Width: 1751 1770
Wheelbase: 2660 2580
Power: 265ps 265ps
Torque: 315nm 350nm
RPM @Pk TQ: 2750 2500-5000
Base Price 26,515gbp 26,170gbp
Engine Wt 161kg 152kg

The Audi's fuel consumption is higher, combiend is 30.x for the 130 vs 25.x for the A3, but overall, there is NO FACT BASE for your claim that in every case Audi's engines are inferior.



Have a nice day!

-Adam


Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N52
http://www.bmw.co.uk/
http://audi.co.uk
http://www.vwvortex.com
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...3-1005174.html

[JK42]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

That simply isn't true. I'll give just one example because to prove you wrong for everyone to see.

Compare the S3's 2.0T and the 130iM's N52.

And that's where the facts ended and the fantasy started. The 2.0T is a TURBO CHARGED i.e. forced induction engine, as opposed to the N52B30 which is a freely breathing i.e a naturally aspirated engine. So they cannot and should not be compared.

By the way, my N52B30 gives out 339Nm naturally aspirated, which is pretty close to the TURBO CHARGED S3's POS, so in that way it is very superior. And the N52B30 is 4 years old design, the S3 2.0T is about as new as engines get. But still, comparing naturally aspirated and turbo charged engines is something that only someone as desperate as you would start doing. What next: Compare VAG diesel engines torque with the torque of BMW's gasoline engine, because it's higher? Just as realistic of a comparison. Just as realistic.

Now, buzz off with this subject, I'm done here.

Jussi

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by JK42

And that's where the facts ended and the fantasy started. The 2.0T is a TURBO CHARGED i.e. forced induction engine, as opposed to the N52B30 which is a freely breathing i.e a naturally aspirated engine. So they cannot and should not be compared.

First, you established the criteria, I showed you the S3s motors meets all of YOUR criteria, but you continue to change the rules and drag a number of unrelated topics onto the playing field.

Of course they can be compared, they are similar in nearly every quantifiable respect, price, output, torque, weight, except in how they achieve it. They're just two different approaches to the same problem.

Originally Posted by JK42

By the way, my N52B30 gives out 339Nm naturally aspirated, which is pretty close to the TURBO CHARGED S3's POS, so in that way it is very superior. And the N52B30 is 4 years old design, the S3 2.0T is about as new as engines get. But still, comparing naturally aspirated and turbo charged engines is something that only someone as nutcased or desperate as you would start doing.

I'm neither a nutcase nor am I desperate, nor do I appreciate your childish name calling.

These cars COMPETE directly with each other. The 2.0T is also not 'as new as it gets' it's been available in the MK V GTI since 2003. The changes made to it for the S3 were minor in the grand scheme of things and included the replacement of the K03 turbo with a K04 (as used on the older S3) and strenghthing of engine and transmission internals to deal with the additional power.

Originally Posted by JK42

What next: Compare VAG diesel engines torque with the torque of BMW's gasoline engine, because it's higher? Just as realistic of a comparison. Just as realistic.

Jussi

I never said anything about comparing gas to diesel.

-Adam