[WolfGTI]

My wife has an E84 X1 Msport - I use the paddles in the twisties and when I want to give it some hi rm / enthusiastic flogging. I do prefer the 6spd in my M240i but each has its purpose.

Originally Posted by Lucky13

I have an X1 E84 MSport with paddle shifters and M235 with manual, I used the paddle shifters twice in 7 years and said what a waste of my fingers and never used them again.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

F1 cars and most other serious purpose-built race cars have SMG 'semi'-automatic transmissions with paddle shifters, very similar to your ZF automatic in feel, with 8 speeds, just like the ZF. Is someone going to claim that these cars do not provide entertainment and engagement?
I have nothing against manual transmissions, having learned to drive at the age of 10 on a McCormick Farmall tractor with a three-speed manual, but . . .
As I have noted several times previously, if you want true engagement with the road, get a good bicycle.

The ZF provides a decent amount of engagement, but the manual provides a ton more engagement, mental processing, and skill. The auto shifts extremely fast, so fast in fact that you can shift safely through a turn with little risk of chassis instability. The auto also has more gear ratios thus is far less dependent on correct gear selection. With the manual, you have to think out the timing of your shifts, move one arm off the wheel, carefully modulate the clutch and throttle, all the while managing the brakes and watching ahead and your mirrors. It WAY more engaging and involved.

F1 cars use autos because they are faster, more reliable, reduce driver fatigue, reduce driver mistakes, and give the engineers more control. It has nothing to do with providing or reducing engagement.

Some people love driving manuals. Some view it as a hassle. Some want the fastest/quickest car. Some want to feel the most connection to a car as possible. Thank God we all have a choice.....for now.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

F1 cars and most other serious purpose-built race cars have SMG 'semi'-automatic transmissions with paddle shifters, very similar to your ZF automatic in feel, with 8 speeds, just like the ZF. Is someone going to claim that these cars do not provide entertainment and engagement?

That is not the relevant question. F1/race cars as you describe provide a variety, type, and degree of stimulation not achievable on "civilian" streets with more typical vehicles, so the comparison is not close to valid. For the mundane driving tasks most experience commuting or on the way to Costco, the difference between the ZF and a stick is highly pronounced in the absence of being on a speed-driven track with hugely powerful vehicles. This difference is what changes the degree of engagement and driving entertainment in the routines of our lives.

[albertw]

[QUOTE=XutvJet;25107399]The ZF provides a decent amount of engagement, but the manual provides a ton more engagement, mental processing, and skill. The auto shifts extremely fast, so fast in fact that you can shift safely through a turn with little risk of chassis instability. The auto also has more gear ratios thus is far less dependent on correct gear selection. With the manual, you have to think out the timing of your shifts, move one arm off the wheel, carefully modulate the clutch and throttle, all the while managing the brakes and watching ahead and your mirrors. It WAY more engaging and involved.
QUOTE]

I agree that a manual is more engaging, but I think you are overstating the case by "a ton".

There's no reason why you can't use the paddles to manage the RPMs exactly the same way as with a manual. You can exercise the same care to ensure that you are always in the right gear and that you never have to shift in mid-corner. The argument about gear spacing is pretty minor. Eighth is much higher than 6th on a MT and I think 1st is lower, so it's really comparing the spacing of six to seven gears.

"move one arm off the wheel" - you can do that with the auto by using the stick to shift instead of the paddles.

"carefully modulate the clutch and throttle" - if you have revmatching on (seems most people do) the challenge of heel-and-toe downshifting is pretty well eliminated. Considering how few people agreed with my contention that using the clutch release to raise or lower rpms is inelegant to point of being offensive, it seems few people really care about this even if they turn revmatching off.

All the other arguments listed are just bumf that has to be done regardless of transmission.

In fully automatic mode vs revmatching off I agree that the difference in involvement is significant. However, in manual mode vs revmatching on the difference can be pretty minor, depending on driver attitude.

Finally, there's the problem that if you're buying new it's almost impossible to get a test drive in the exact model you plan to buy. That's an additional, and in my case decisive, reason why there are so few manuals purchased nowadays.

[XutvJet]

[QUOTE=albertw;25107633]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The ZF provides a decent amount of engagement, but the manual provides a ton more engagement, mental processing, and skill. The auto shifts extremely fast, so fast in fact that you can shift safely through a turn with little risk of chassis instability. The auto also has more gear ratios thus is far less dependent on correct gear selection. With the manual, you have to think out the timing of your shifts, move one arm off the wheel, carefully modulate the clutch and throttle, all the while managing the brakes and watching ahead and your mirrors. It WAY more engaging and involved.
QUOTE]

I agree that a manual is more engaging, but I think you are overstating the case by "a ton".

There's no reason why you can't use the paddles to manage the RPMs exactly the same way as with a manual. You can exercise the same care to ensure that you are always in the right gear and that you never have to shift in mid-corner. The argument about gear spacing is pretty minor. Eighth is much higher than 6th on a MT and I think 1st is lower, so it's really comparing the spacing of six to seven gears.

"move one arm off the wheel" - you can do that with the auto by using the stick to shift instead of the paddles.

"carefully modulate the clutch and throttle" - if you have revmatching on (seems most people do) the challenge of heel-and-toe downshifting is pretty well eliminated. Considering how few people agreed with my contention that using the clutch release to raise or lower rpms is inelegant to point of being offensive, it seems few people really care about this even if they turn revmatching off.

All the other arguments listed are just bumf that has to be done regardless of transmission.

In fully automatic mode vs revmatching off I agree that the difference in involvement is significant. However, in manual mode vs revmatching on the difference can be pretty minor, depending on driver attitude.

The M235 6MT is not equipped with rev matching.

As for those making the argument that manuals are terrible in bumper to bumper traffic, the 6MT has an anti-stall feature that will let the car roll at 1-2mph in 1st without stalling assuming you're not going up some major grade. From a stop and in bumper to bumper traffic, you simply release the clutch and the DME will bring the revs up for you thus you don't need to use the throttle at all either.

[TajoMan]

If the 8sp auto in our car was as bad as the one in Lexus IS-F, then I would take manual any day.
I don't miss manual that much with this 8sp. It's very good. (comparable to some decent dual clutch)

One of the great feature is that it holds the gear at rev limiter in manual mode.
It does not upshift by itself. This is huge plus for Auto x/track day.

As far as RWD vs AWD goes, it depends on LSD and winter tire (if winter weather is a consideration).

[Q_Subsub]

IMO, BMW manual is just okay. Even on an M2 I think the manual is good, but I cannot in good conscience say that it is one of the greats. The clutch is good, the shift knob feels good, is pretty precise, has decent weight, and decent throw length, but the rubbery-ness of slotting into the gear I really do think is what keeps it from great.

With that said, I would STILL advise getting the RWD MT because 1). It's not bad, and 2). You know it's a dying breed and you may not get another chance to own one down the road.

[Dylan86]

6MT/RWD for me in a car like this. I have other auto cars for DD, this makes the 6MT far more enjoyable as a casual PT car.

Nothing like ring'ing out 2nd/3rd's long gears, and hearing that engine purr from 4-7k rpm. Reminds me of my old Corrado VR6 days, where's you'd drive around the city in 2nd just listening to the harmonious sounds of the VR. The i6 t N55 is no exception especially with an MPE.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Q_Subsub

IMO, BMW manual is just okay. Even on an M2 I think the manual is good, but I cannot in good conscience say that it is one of the greats. The clutch is good, the shift knob feels good, is pretty precise, has decent weight, and decent throw length, but the rubbery-ness of slotting into the gear I really do think is what keeps it from great.

With that said, I would STILL advise getting the RWD MT because 1). It's not bad, and 2). You know it's a dying breed and you may not get another chance to own one down the road.

The rubbery feel is greatly reduced by simply swapping the shift knob for the M Performance version. It's surprising the difference. An Ultimate Clutch Pedal with at least the large helper spring removed is a must for the 6MT as well. It adds much needed weight, feel, and lowers the catch point and pedal resting position.

[BimmerJRP]

Originally Posted by trilax59

Thanks for everyone chiming in to give advice. I wasn't really looking to start another manual vs automatic debate, but I guess that was inevitable with the questions in my OP lol

Haha, there was no way this wasn't going to turn into a stick vs auto debate.
I live on the east side of Toronto and when I moved here from even snowier climates, I traded my Porsche Macan for a RWD manual M235i. The Porsche was the only non manual car I ever owned, and while it had lots of positives I really missed driving stick and wanted to try owning a RWD car. I've been through 2 winters on dedicated snows, and it's been better than I expected. My street is the last to be plowed, and twice after giant snowfalls I've needed a little manual assistance getting to the end of the street, but once you're on plowed roads it's perfectly fine. I drive away from the city for work, so usually no stop and go for me - if there was that might change my opinion a bit.
I say if you've always wanted a manual car then go for it. Heck even the guy from Calgary made it through 5 winters no problem!

[S62RIP]

I'm debating this quandary myself. My 2003 M5 was totaled this week (*sigh*) and I am debating auto vs. manual in a new M240i. The inner purist is nagging me to get the manual but my practical side says I already have a manual car (NC Miata w/2.5L turbo, zoomzoom) and it would be nice to *not* have a stick in the traffic hell that is Austin TX. I've driven the 8spd and was impressed but I fear I'll get bored with it quickly. Definitely quicker though...

Every car I've ever bought has been a stick aside from a practical but ill advised detour with a used Honda Element (toaster4life, great utility vehicle, but no). For me automatic cars can be dangerous as I get disconnected, distracted or bored driving them.

OP, if you've never owned a stick you owe it to yourself to get one. It really is a unique and rewarding experience that enhances the tactile part of driving. If the BMW was going to be my only car I wouldn't even be debating this.

[hohay]

when I started to look for my 240 I was fully set on a 6MT but in the UK I could not find any for sale! I was in a rush and found a stunning blue 240i at a good price and went for it. Never had a auto before and always had MT for the last 20 years.

Surprising I love it, its my DD and I can just sit and let the car do the work. Yes you do not get the same feel when driving quicker on some twisty roads but overall I would get the auto again.

[Lucky13]

Biggest regret I ever made in purchasing BMW’s was trading my E36 328 coupe with manual for a 1997 BMW 528 auto which was an all new model at the time. I was bored to tears within a month and had to buy a Z3 2.8 manual to regain my sanity to drive on weekends.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Biggest regret I ever made in purchasing BMW’s was trading my E36 328 coupe with manual for a 1997 BMW 528 auto which was an all new model at the time. I was bored to tears within a month and had to buy a Z3 2.8 manual to regain my sanity to drive on weekends.

Yeah, it took a lot for me to stick to my guns and order my 6MT M235 rather than saving a ton of money and buying one of the many automatics sitting on the BMW lots in Kansas City. I could have saved myself a few grand buying one of those cars, but I too made the mistake of settling for automatics in my 1994 Z28 and 2003 Infiniti G35 rather than being patient and finding the 6MT variants. The autos in those cars were really good and really no slower in the 1/4 mile than the 6MTs, but after 6 months to a year, I was really wanting the manual. I stomached owning those cars for 3 and 6 years each, respectively and constantly thought about the 6MTs. When looking at M235s only autos were available and I was really impressed with the 8AT, but knew for a fact that I could only fool myself into thinking it was the better choice for a few months and then I'd be wishing for the 6MT.

[trilax59]

Update:

Thank you everyone for commenting and providing your input on the topic. I have just signed papers for a 2016 M235i RWD ZF8. Now before everyone starts commenting that it should've been a manual, I was able to get a very good deal on this car and it had everything I was looking for. Many of the manuals I found were more expensive and weren't configured with what I wanted (+some of the dealers drilled the front bumper ). This auto will make commuting more comfortable and easier. It would take me some time to get the manual down pat and I can't afford to spend extra time commuting because of it. However, I am still very eager to drive a manual and will look for a used stick as a second car when the finances are right.

[Tslbmw]

Congrats on your purchase! Your reasoning is sound and I'm sure you're going to love your new ride.

Enjoy.....and post some pics!

(And thanks for thread #128,674 on MT vs Auto - they're always entertaining!)

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by trilax59

Update:

Thank you everyone for commenting and providing your input on the topic. I have just signed papers for a 2016 M235i RWD ZF8. Now before everyone starts commenting that it should've been a manual, I was able to get a very good deal on this car and it had everything I was looking for. Many of the manuals I found were more expensive and weren't configured with what I wanted (+some of the dealers drilled the front bumper ). This auto will make commuting more comfortable and easier. It would take me some time to get the manual down pat and I can't afford to spend extra time commuting because of it. However, I am still very eager to drive a manual and will look for a used stick as a second car when the finances are right.

Congratulations and many happy/safe miles ahead! Having two cars with a choice is a great outcome, when you can arrange that one day.

[mattc1176]

These threads are always my favorite. All I know is the feeling I get when I downshift to pass someone always puts a smile on my face and I can't find any automatic that does that. Closest was using the paddles on a Ferrari 458.

[DBinOC]

Don't care so long as you 1) enjoy whatever you drive and 2) buy a 2 series of some sort so BMW will keep making them. There are talks of a culling of the model line and the 4 series coupes have gotten too big while the Z4 isn't a coupe.

Personally speaking, I enjoy the RWD/6MT but I live somewhere that gets no snow and I don't mind using the clutch in traffic. Not everyone feels the same way. (Obviously)

DBinOC

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by trilax59

I am still very eager to drive a manual and will look for a used stick as a second car when the finances are right.

A well cared-for NB Miata will solve that problem at a relatively modest price point.

[celsdogg]

Originally Posted by dradernh

A well cared-for NB Miata will solve that problem at a relatively modest price point.

this is a great take!

congrats OP, enjoy and post pics!

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Congrats OP, I don't think you will regret it being a manual.

Honestly the first car with paddle shifters I drove was a Ferrari F430 on a track. Before that I was kind of a hater, but there was something very rewarding about goosing it out of a corner, and that first upshift slamming you in your seat with ferocity. Granted I wont go as all out on the mountain roads around where I live, but it is still quite rewarding, maybe no as engaging as rowing through your own gears, but slapping the paddle, hearing the burbles, it is not exactly a dull feeling by any stretch.

If you really want to have a fun car to row the gears through, go get an e46 3 series beater or e36 beater with a manual for daily commuting heheh, can keep that as your primary car and save some money on insurance also.