[babaikram]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Respectfully, these two statements constitute an oxymoron. By definition, "total involvement" includes all four limbs and activating those cortical areas which control and synchronize them. You are advocating no more than 3/4 involvement.

My definition of involvement is being involved in the dynamics of the car. You get exactly the same result whether you use the gear stick or paddles. Only that you get it faster with paddles. That is why F1 vehicles ditched the gear shift

If for you must use all your four limbs to have this sense of involvement, then that is for you. That is your own peculiarity. Please stop talking about cortical mapping. Cortical mapping is innate and learnt. Your brain would not miss what it never learnt and innate. By the way you are talking to a professional in this area

Sometimes the cry for manual gear stick is elevated to a level of religious fervour when all opposing reasoning is not considered but insults are thrown about

[trilax59]

Thanks for everyone chiming in to give advice. I wasn't really looking to start another manual vs automatic debate, but I guess that was inevitable with the questions in my OP lol

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by babaikram

My definition of involvement is being involved in the dynamics of the car. You get exactly the same result whether you use the gear stick or paddles. Only that you get it faster with paddles. That is why F1 vehicles ditched the gear shift

If for you must use all your four limbs to have this sense of involvement, then that is for you. That is your own peculiarity. Please stop talking about cortical mapping. Cortical mapping is innate and learnt. Your brain would not miss what it never learnt and innate. By the way you are talking to a professional in this area

Sometimes the cry for manual gear stick is elevated to a level of religious fervour when all opposing reasoning is not considered but insults are thrown about

Let's start with vocabulary. "Oxymoron" is not a personal insult; it simply means two statements are contradictory to each other, a very reasonable observation to offer in response to your earlier assertion, especially preceded with "respectfully".

Your definition of involvement is personally yours and you oddly link it to outcomes. However, this discussion has not been about results, similar or not, but rather about the process. It is undeniable that the two experiences are different between a true manual transmission and any form of automatic, for each to decide as better or worse.

If you are suggesting that fMRI would be identical for a controlled sample of experienced drivers, such as those motivated enough to slog through reading forum posts, for both manual and automatic transmission usage, then we have two professionals who will agree to disagree pending such research. Perhaps a novice driver taking their first-ever drive on an interstate highway (in an automatic transmission car), sweaty hands gripping the wheel, might experience "total involvement", if not incipient panic, but that is not the basis for a BMW enthusiast forum discussion.

There is no such religious fervor here as you suggest, just reasoned rebuttal that "total involvement" for the more enthusiastic sub-segment of the driving population can occur when increased automation replaces activity with "resting". That doesn't mean the automatic isn't excellent, as the one in my 3GT is, nor that it isn't very enjoyable to drive. It simply means engagement is less than total. Is there a logical rebuttal to this based on process and not results?

[babaikram]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Let's start with vocabulary. "Oxymoron" is not a personal insult; it simply means two statements are contradictory to each other, a very reasonable observation to offer in response to your earlier assertion, especially preceded with "respectfully".

Your definition of involvement is personally yours and you oddly link it to outcomes. However, this discussion has not been about results, similar or not, but rather about the process. It is undeniable that the two experiences are different between a true manual transmission and any form of automatic, for each to decide as better or worse.

If you are suggesting that fMRI would be identical for a controlled sample of experienced drivers, such as those motivated enough to slog through reading forum posts, for both manual and automatic transmission usage, then we have two professionals who will agree to disagree pending such research. Perhaps a novice driver taking their first-ever drive on an interstate highway (in an automatic transmission car), sweaty hands gripping the wheel, might experience "total involvement", if not incipient panic, but that is not the basis for a BMW enthusiast forum discussion.

There is no such religious fervor here as you suggest, just reasoned rebuttal that "total involvement" for the more enthusiastic sub-segment of the driving population can occur when increased automation replaces activity with "resting". That doesn't mean the automatic isn't excellent, as the one in my 3GT is, nor that it isn't very enjoyable to drive. It simply means engagement is less than total. Is there a logical rebuttal to this based on process and not results?

Changing gears by yourself at a predetermined sound level/pattern, deliberately eliciting bang and pops from the exhaust at predetermined RPM and speed, with the kick and shove in the back, watching the rev reaching close to the red line before changing gears and aiming for the apex before changing your gear are all the same things you can do whether you are using gear stick or the paddles.

The difference is the process, the results are the same. I prefer to use the paddles than the gear stick even though I used the gear stick all my life until my F10. However I hardly drive in full automatic as I always shift the automatic gear stick to manual and in Sport plus. I hope you know in this position, the car would not automatically shift the gear up for you.

You know one thing you can do with semi automatic but not able to do with gear stick is racing from the red light in straight line, putting the gear in full automatic and be satisfied that you extract all the speed from the car even when you lose. Otherwise one would be thinking: Had my car be automatic It would have been faster........

[Lucky13]

I have an X1 E84 MSport with paddle shifters and M235 with manual, I used the paddle shifters twice in 7 years and said what a waste of my fingers and never used them again.

[MichaelL]

This debate never ends and it never gets "solved" buy what YOU want and enjoy it. Everyone has their personal preference. People love to justify their decisions... there has been some very excellent advice in this thread, I would consider all the info and then decide.

How do you plan to use the car? Which would you prefer? Finally, test drive and see for yourself.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by babaikram

The difference is the process...

Exactly. You've actually just proven every stick shift driver's point. The variance in process is what is exciting. As one of the leading experts on neuroplasticity in the US, I can assure you that fMRIs will be different for a person who truly enjoys the process of rowing their own gears vs. that same person in an automatic, including DCTs and flappy paddles.

It's like a master piano player on a grand piano vs an iPad. Different process, same "results" or outcome. Or a real relationship resulting in a baby (I won't get into the process of that here) vs artificial insemination. Different process, same result. BTW, fMRIs are quite different in both settings.

[thebmw]

Bottom line, get what makes your fMRI light up!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Exactly. You've actually just proven every stick shift driver's point. The variance in process is what is exciting. As one of the leading experts on neuroplasticity in the US, I can assure you that fMRIs will be different for a person who truly enjoys the process of rowing their own gears vs. that same person in an automatic, including DCTs and flappy paddles.

It's like a master piano player on a grand piano vs an iPad. Different process, same "results" or outcome. Or a real relationship resulting in a baby (I won't get into the process of that here) vs artificial insemination. Different process, same result. BTW, fMRIs are quite different in both settings.

Originally Posted by thebmw

Bottom line, get what makes your fMRI light up!

Thank you! You've encapsulated the issue perfectly.

I am typing this (and everything recently) with my one non-dominant hand, while my other arm recovers in a post-op sling (rotater cuff). I have been experiencing the increased cerebral activity controlling my non-dominant side hand as I learned to write, type more quickly, use clothing buttons, etc. Giving up the manual transmission would have an opposite effect of subduing the areas that activate the left leg and stimulate it to dance through a smoothly executed double-clutch downshift. With neurological evidence suggesting that even periodically moving your watch to the non-dominant arm is beneficial, I plan to continue with more, not less, activity.

[msej449]

I'd say not to conflate two separate questions, (a) manual or auto and (b) RWD vs AWD, but treat them as separate sets of pros/cons.

Re the manual vs auto, I've gone through this journey over the last 40 years and appreciate the interest in at least owning one manual car, especially given the trend towards autonomous vehicles. But if you can, I'd make it something where the manual capability can shine. In my case this was a separate 'fun' car (a Lotus Elise), in the case of other forum members, it's often a similar road-legal but track/handling-oriented car that wouldn't normally be a daily drive. Obviously, a separate 'fun' car is fine if you can afford it, but many can't, so it's a compromise, like so many things in life. Even so, after about 4 years with the Elise, and a couple of (very) close shaves on public roads, I also realised that I need to go on track to take things any further, and sold the Elise and used the savings on running costs to fund track sessions instead.

I'd say that the ZF8 auto box Crossed The Line for me i.e. the line where, in a car that I was using as a DD, the effectiveness and convenience of an auto that also had a manual mode and paddles, outweighed the occasional superiority/fun of a full manual. This isn't to say that the ZF8 + Sports Auto can't do 'fun' - just that it doesn't take you as far into manual space as - obviously - a manual will.

The RWD vs AWD discussion is so well covered that I'd just point you to the considerable volume of posts on the topic, and leave you to decide for yourself.

So perhaps you might take a look at any local track courses that let you drive a variety of manual cars on a proper track, with instruction. I'm lucky, as I live near the Goodwood Circuit here in the UK, and so there are a variety of courses on offer. Of all those I've done, ironically, the one I most enjoyed (and which I've posted about on other threads) was the Wet Weather course: where they use the Euro BMW 140i with ZF8 Sports Auto as the instruction car. I still can't get over doing a reverse J-turn in an auto at 40mph. And it was only £99 for an hour's on-track instruction in their car.

[EM240]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

BMW 6-speed is too expensive to learn to manipulate a manual transmission on.

We are cut from different cloths. I learned to drive stick on an e93 M3 on a ~15 hour drive from NC to the northeast. I did stall a couple times, once at Starbucks pit stop because someone beeped at me . If OP watches some YouTube videos and takes it easy I’m sure he could handle a modern BMW manual tranny especially with the built in rev matching on downshifts. Not saying it’s the best way to learn but not unprecedented especially if you’re an enthusiast and have a general gist of things to begin with

[p912guy]

Y'all are missing the big picture - both are great. I love my 6MT because I love driving my M235i vert. With a 6MT in it, I know I when I go out to the garage it will always be there waiting for me because my wife hates driving a MT car, even though she is quite accomplished at it. If it had an AT, she'd pick it every time and I'd be stuck taking her Q5.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

It really comes down to whether you are a driving enthusiast, or performance enthusiast. If you want THE FASTER car, get the auto, if you want the one where you will enjoy the drive a bit more, get the manual.

Unless you commute in LA... auto probably for you. Like I said, I own a manual, and auto, they are both fun in their own right, everyone chiming in how one is better than the other, is just justifying their own bias, better at what? They are each better at different things. So there is no single blanket statement, he knows what he would prefer honestly, our job is to give him advice on both and he can better judge which use case he would prefer more.

[35mmSummicron]

6MT rwd on the m240i is just a lovely experience. It brings a smile to my face every time I get in. Came from an F30 3-series ZF 8AT, great car, loved it, but my 2er is just so much more engaging. Added to the fact that manuals will likely only be reserved for the next M2/M3/M4 there's few opportunities left. I drive my 2er during the winter in Toronto. Definitely can be a touch squirrelly if you throttle too hard (my winter's are x-ice3's) but still very safe and manageable for the car enthusiast. I wonder how much better winter traction would be with an LSD...

[insanedc]

Interesting topic as I went through this exact decision a year ago.

1. I was going to buy used. I'm done with new cars.
2. With RWD, I wanted LSD with the manual. The LSD was a must for all of the reasons cited here.
3. No interest in auto. Never drove it.

Fast forward a few months. I couldn't find a car with LSD and it would cost 2k to have one installed. I decided to include xdrive cars in my search just because. I ended up finding an xdrive car with MPE and other accessories installed for the price I wanted to pay.

I drove manuals exclusively for 30 years (my other car is a manual). The ZF8 is the first auto that didn't piss me off. No, it isn't perfect. I only use the paddles during spirited driving because the computer holds the gears too long IMO. It's not the same as the manual, period. That said, I don't miss the manual at all, and the 2 manual 240s that I drove had very solid transmission IMO. Very enjoyable. I would consider owning one, but I'm not iching to get rid of the 235 xdrive. NO regrets with the purchase. I enjoy having traction. I'm no longer interested in having a tail happy driving experience. Been there, done that.

For me, the xdrive auto worked well as a replacement for a 6MT with LSD. I will replace the manual car in 3 years and may consider a newer 2 series if I can find one with a LSD. We'll see.

Bottom line. The choice depends on the driving experience that you want. These 2 cars drive differently regardless of transmission due to weight and AWD/RWD. For me, I made the right choice.

[rainfall]

You need to choose between practicality and fun.

I GUARANTEE to you that RWD+Manual will be more fun. I spent many months more looking for my M235i to get it in manual.

Now, the question is: can you take the hit in less practicality? Like, if you live in NJ area, you probably need to swap to winter tires late fall, and a bit earlier in the fall if you choose RWD.

Also, same thing for manual x auto. If you plan to DD it, ask yourself: How long do you stay in a bumper to bumper situation? I'd say if you drive more than 30 minutes each way bumper to bumper, it will be more annoying to drive in manual. Some people have more tolerance than others, but I think under 30 minutes is pretty endurable.

I disagree what the 2er 6MT is a bad transmission. It works great for me.

[rainfall]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

It really comes down to whether you are a driving enthusiast, or performance enthusiast. If you want THE FASTER car, get the auto, if you want the one where you will enjoy the drive a bit more, get the manual.

Unless you commute in LA... auto probably for you. Like I said, I own a manual, and auto, they are both fun in their own right, everyone chiming in how one is better than the other, is just justifying their own bias, better at what? They are each better at different things. So there is no single blanket statement, he knows what he would prefer honestly, our job is to give him advice on both and he can better judge which use case he would prefer more.

Slightly off topic: I agree that LA is horrible. Ironically, most of 6MT bmw I could find are from there. isn't that crazy? I almost purchased one from there.

[rcyyan]

The question you want from the car...are you looking for a tool or a lover. The auto is definitely the best tool for getting you from point A to B. The manual is like a lover, where you need to coax her to get the best out of her...hearing every rev to know when to shift, feeling when to downshift to open her up etc. She can also be a whining bitch and will test you as you slog through traffic.

My 0.02.

My lover is the manual rwd M240i. My tool is an i3 coder with Traffic Jam Assist. I guess I’m a lucky guy getting the best of both worlds.

[morphomeman]

Ah, California! A frugal wife and a hot one on the side.

[Pray for Mojo]

These cars aren't world beaters even when tuned, so you might as well go for the best driving experience. I've had a RWD 6 speed since 2014, and it's been through 5 winters now and I've never been stuck or had trouble. The combination of winter tires and traction control are more than you need. You can always add limited slip differential as well, I did last summer and it definitely helps. The manual in these cars is incredible easy to drive and rewarding.

[celsdogg]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

An automatic transmission provides 0% of the entertainment/engagement of the manual transmission, by definition. However, as a "survivor" of decades of midwest winters, I came to realize that the best winter tires (Blizzak WS90, Michelin XIce xi3) on RWD provide about 90% of the capability of those same tires on XDrive. Keep in mind, cars don't have traction; tires have traction as the only part touching the ground. XDrive just helps a bit by adding power to the front tires when tire traction is low at the rear, assuming the surface under the front tires is that much better. And, all of this concern is for a fraction of the year. Shame to sacrifice the rest of the year for that last 10%.

I can't +1 this enough!

I check in with 6MT RWD vote. MT is all about you and what you can do and feel. to me, there is no better feeling than a perfect rev-matched downshift. I don't drive it for efficiency or to gain a few tenths in acceleration. most won't notice those 10th's or even a good enough driver to make em count.

I have snows for all my rwd cars. no problem driving the old rwd E46 in 9" of snow. having multiple sets of tires, storing and swapping isn't convenient for most, but if you can swing it, it's worth it.

good luck finding and enjoying your new sled, no matter which you decide!

[morphomeman]

F1 cars and most other serious purpose-built race cars have SMG 'semi'-automatic transmissions with paddle shifters, very similar to your ZF automatic in feel, with 8 speeds, just like the ZF. Is someone going to claim that these cars do not provide entertainment and engagement?
I have nothing against manual transmissions, having learned to drive at the age of 10 on a McCormick Farmall tractor with a three-speed manual, but . . .
As I have noted several times previously, if you want true engagement with the road, get a good bicycle.