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      04-17-2018, 08:36 AM   #23
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Am I correct to assume that these cars will put you into 'limp mode' if they detect a dangerous drop in oil pressure? I'm assuming (hoping) that since they do it for momentary fuel starvation and a host of other momentary issues - since I don't run a dongle with oil pressure mapping (and couldn't use it on track anyway, since it wouldn't be bolted down) I was hoping this would be a safety net to at least let me know if I was having any starvation issues.
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      04-17-2018, 11:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisa9977 View Post
I'm not the only one who had engine problems at the race track with M235. Friend on mine had the same engine failure at the different race track due to oil starvation. Same exact thing with his brand new car. His engine was replaced under factory warranty. May be warranty issues keep people from reporting track engine failures. Who knows.

I only did about 5 laps, but I they were timed laps driven 10/10. If I drove 9/10 may be I could've done 1000 laps. I drove a lots of different cars such as e46 M3, Porsche GT3, Audi R8, Renault Megan RS, Mercedes GTS, Ferrari 458 and many more at the same race track with the same pace with no problems.

If there was no problem with oil starvation, racing version M235R would't have oil sump and oil pan from M2. It's all depends on how much speed you carry through the corners and how hard you are driving. Standard car can take quite a bit of track driving, but I guess, its all depends.
You only did 5 laps before the engine failed?
Were you running the track CW or CCW?
Exactly what street tires were you running?
Were you running a tune?
What oil was in the car?

I've done track days and time attack events in the car at Big Willow here. 130mph sustained big sweepers. Logs show no oil temp or pressure issues.

Either way that's a very cool find with the M2 parts.

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      04-17-2018, 11:15 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by bryan_f22 View Post
I never had an issue with oil.. I can see if you are running a true endurance event how this would be an issue.

Fuel is a known issue.
When i get to 1/4 tank left, i have to refill or it will starve and go into limp mode. The stage 2 lpfp from fuel it seemed to make this more of an issue vs. the stock fuel pump.
My EvoX could not get below 3/4 of a tank on CCW tracks
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      06-06-2018, 08:06 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisa9977 View Post
I'm not the only one who had engine problems at the race track with M235. Friend on mine had the same engine failure at the different race track due to oil starvation. Same exact thing with his brand new car. His engine was replaced under factory warranty. May be warranty issues keep people from reporting track engine failures. Who knows.

I only did about 5 laps, but I they were timed laps driven 10/10. If I drove 9/10 may be I could've done 1000 laps. I drove a lots of different cars such as e46 M3, Porsche GT3, Audi R8, Renault Megan RS, Mercedes GTS, Ferrari 458 and many more at the same race track with the same pace with no problems.

If there was no problem with oil starvation, racing version M235R would't have oil sump and oil pan from M2. It's all depends on how much speed you carry through the corners and how hard you are driving. Standard car can take quite a bit of track driving, but I guess, its all depends.
what were the symptoms of the car? and how did you figure out it was oil starvation ?
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      09-10-2018, 02:40 PM   #27
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Can anyone else share more information on oil starvation experiences. I spoke with RSR Nurburg who runs eight M235's at the Nurburgring and they've not has any issues.

I'm debating whether to start modding the M235 for track or not?!
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      09-10-2018, 06:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3LMV View Post
Can anyone else share more information on oil starvation experiences. I spoke with RSR Nurburg who runs eight M235's at the Nurburgring and they've not has any issues.

I'm debating whether to start modding the M235 for track or not?!
The BMW specialist shop that modified my M240i for track use said that oil starvation was not an issue. Now, that's with the B58 motor, and not the N55 motor in your car. Perhaps N55 owners will weigh in with their experiences.

I was informed that fuel starvation was the issue to look out for in this regard, and to keep the fuel tank at least 1/2 full when negotiating right-hand turns with moderate-to-high lateral g-forces.
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      10-07-2018, 09:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisa9977 View Post
I had two engine replaced due to oil starvation. M235 is not designed the track use and for higher lateral G forces. If you planning to use you car at the track I recommend to install M2 (M235R) oil sump and the oil pan this will keep the car from being starved for oil.
Two engines lost? Both under warranty? Whew, I did over 40 track days in my 235i with no oil issues. Fuel starvation issues, yes, but no other issues. The only mod was wheels and tires - 17's with a square set of Hankook R-S3s. Were you on R compounds?
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      01-16-2019, 02:30 AM   #30
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Sorry I did not reply. I'm not a regular in this forum. Anyway, after replacing those parts, I've been using the car for about a year (only race tracks) and have no issues with engine and transmission.

Again, the standard m235 oil system is not designed for the race track use, this is why its cup version M235R has M4/M2 oil system! M4 and M2 are made for the track. If you did't have any oil starvation problems, that only means, that the track that you are driving doesn't have multi apex long corners and you are not experiencing g forces for extended period of time. Or you just not fast enough in the corners.
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      01-16-2019, 03:08 AM   #31
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This is the corner that killed my engine


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      01-16-2019, 06:06 PM   #32
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That's a pretty long and flat high G and high speed turn. Most of us won't be driving on a track with a long turn like that. You were in the turn for over 12 seconds. LOL
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      01-17-2019, 01:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
That's a pretty long and flat high G and high speed turn. Most of us won't be driving on a track with a long turn like that. You were in the turn for over 12 seconds. LOL

Other cars have no problem with this turn. At this track I drove BMW M3(all generations), almost all Porsche models, Renault Megan RS, Renault Clio RS, VW Scirocco, Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458, Mercedes (a lots of different models), Audi TT and R8, all bone stock and neither of them had any problems after 1000 laps.
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      01-18-2019, 03:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisa9977 View Post
Other cars have no problem with this turn. At this track I drove BMW M3(all generations), almost all Porsche models, Renault Megan RS, Renault Clio RS, VW Scirocco, Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458, Mercedes (a lots of different models), Audi TT and R8, all bone stock and neither of them had any problems after 1000 laps.
I agree with you. N55 oiling system (any street non-M BMW really) is not robust for track use. My 135i N55 starved of oil at Pocono: https://bmw.***********.com/threads/...e-2#post-64723 (Spool Street). I know of an N54 and an N55 that had just blown up at that track within a few weeks of me.

If you've ever torn down one of these engines you'd know the oiling system is weak for track driving. There is no baffle in place and the shape of the oil pan allows oil to slosh forward in roll. The sump really isn't all that deep either and 7qt capacity is relatively small. A deeper oil pan, 2 qts more capacity, and a longer pick up tube would be great start to address this. That is one of the things the N20 race cars are doing.

There is an entire thread in the N20 section dedicated to showcasing oil starvation with oil pressure plotted along side g-force. The oil pan and oil pickup is effectively the same on the N20 engine as it is on the N5x engines just with 2 less cylinders.

Obviously driving style and setup can play a big roll in this. Lots of cars are set up where they are slow-in (understeer on entry) and then the driver is just mashing the gas around the turn.

Even the "semi-dry" system that the M cars use is only rate for up to 1.3g. BMW points this out themselves in the S55 engine PDF.

The B58 did not get any special oil pan or pump. There is no reason to believe the B58 would be any more or less reliable.

Upon rebuild, I personally put in a slight baffle and an Accusump. I may do what another user in my thread posted and hook up an oil transfer pump to the rear of the pan. Should be able to tap the oil pan in place and pump oil from the front of the pan to the rear to mimic the M2 setup. It would be cheaper and easier than sourcing M2/3/4 parts and swapping them in. Dropping the oil pan SUCKS.

Just some food for thought... at 1g oil forms a 45* wedge up the wall of the pan. Now think of how much the oil sloshes at 1.3g...
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      01-18-2019, 08:14 PM   #35
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Currently sourcing a pan and sump, from an M2. This will be one of my last mods, before more power..
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      01-24-2019, 10:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
That's a pretty long and flat high G and high speed turn. Most of us won't be driving on a track with a long turn like that. You were in the turn for over 12 seconds. LOL
Come to Road America and you will (see 1:31 of the video).

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      01-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
That's a pretty long and flat high G and high speed turn. Most of us won't be driving on a track with a long turn like that. You were in the turn for over 12 seconds. LOL
The Carousel at Watkins Glen takes about that long. In the video below (from a much faster car), there are 10.25 seconds during which the car does pretty much what the OP's car is doing in his video:

Lateral G Avg -1.21
MPH Avg 96.35
Steering Avg 68.90

The strong Lat G section starts at 43.15 of the lap time and ends at 53.42.

One of our cars would run around 11.5 seconds through the Carousel. That would lower the Lat G somewhat, and it might slightly reduce any potential oil starvation.

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      01-25-2019, 09:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post

One of our cars would run around 11.5 seconds through the Carousel. That would lower the Lat G somewhat, and it might slightly reduce any potential oil starvation.

Not all long sweepers are the same. You aren't entering the carousel as the first turn off the straight away after having just spent 10 seconds topping out 5th gear... Spending a lot of time at high rpm can reduce the oil volume available in the pan. There is the chicane that slows you down and gives oil a few seconds to drain back to the pan.

Oil starvation is an issue for pretty much every street car in existence that didn't come with provisions to prevent starvation. LS, VQ, N5x/N2x , EJ, and plenty of other engines have threads out there documenting oil starvation.
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      01-25-2019, 09:27 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post

One of our cars would run around 11.5 seconds through the Carousel. That would lower the Lat G somewhat, and it might slightly reduce any potential oil starvation.

Not all long sweepers are the same. You aren't entering the carousel as the first turn off the straight away after having just spent 10 seconds topping out 5th gear... It is plausible that spending a lot of time at high rpm can reduce the oil volume available in the pan. There is the chicane that slows you down and gives oil a few seconds to drain back to the pan before you toss the car into the sweeper.

Oil starvation is an issue for pretty much every street car in existence that didn't come with provisions to prevent starvation. LS, VQ, N5x/N2x , EJ, and plenty of other "great" tuning engines have massive threads documenting oil starvation when turning.
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      01-25-2019, 12:09 PM   #40
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Back in the 'old days' we used to run an Accusump as a cheaper alternative to a dry-sump. Is anybody here using one of these? Can they even be adapted to these new high-tech motors? IIRC, the ones I saw in use were just plumbed into the oil return line from the cooler, and it sounds like the BMWs have a lot of internal routing going on that might defeat that.

And thanks for the WGI vid - I'm already getting stoked for my second season tracking, and it whets my appetite even more.
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      01-25-2019, 12:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Back in the 'old days' we used to run an Accusump as a cheaper alternative to a dry-sump. Is anybody here using one of these? Can they even be adapted to these new high-tech motors? IIRC, the ones I saw in use were just plumbed into the oil return line from the cooler, and it sounds like the BMWs have a lot of internal routing going on that might defeat that.

And thanks for the WGI vid - I'm already getting stoked for my second season tracking, and it whets my appetite even more.
I have an Accusump plumbed to my oil return line side of the thermostat (top port of OTH). What about the plumbing could possible affect this? Oil gets pumped to the filter first, then it gets pushed through the thermostat, and then it returns to the housing to enter the main oil galley. The oil filter housing is pretty simple. SOME oil is ALWAYS flowing through the thermostat so even on a dead cold nuts start I can use the Accusump to prime the engine with pressure. The only argument that can be made is that the oil will back-flow through the oil filter but that is what anti-drainback valves prevent. A log of oil pressure shows the accusump building pressure (up to 40psi prior to cranking), which is measured right before it goes into the block, so the oil is NOT just dumping back to the pan.

Also, you can run an in-line check valve on the oil return line to prevent the potential back-flow of oil.

I wired a light and switch to the Accusumps electronic valve so I can see when it's dumping oil. This has shown that the oil pressure PID is not as responsive as you might think. BMW either does some kind of smoothing of the data, or, the logging resolution (sensor feedback or OBD limits) just isn't that great. I say this because a log of oil pressure will show 80psi while shifting but the Accusump will dump oil during a shift which indicate it actually dropping below 60psi. Not concerning, but, it shows the oil pressure monitoring may not have the greatest resolution to capture a split second oil pressure loss.

Accusump is a great device but I've still read people popping engines even when using them.
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      01-25-2019, 06:16 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Is anybody here using one of these?
The car in the video had one, but an Accusump is further than I'm willing to go with the M240. As little time as this car spends on the track, I'm not going to take on that level of complexity.

If it was more of a track car, I'd consider installing one. First, though, I'd collect data from an aftermarket sensor to show me where and how much the car is dropping pressure.
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      01-29-2019, 11:39 AM   #43
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Glad to hear these are still an option, if/when the warranty ends and I start getting more creative w/ the mods (and perhaps able to generate enough g-loading to actually matter by then )
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      05-28-2019, 01:11 PM   #44
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dradernh cross posting from "spool" & "street" forum...

It finally stopped raining and I was able to get out to run another autocross yesterday with some sticky Hoosier A7 (17/225's).

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/5-1...w9k8juO8HLLSGF

No Accusump installed. I have been messing with a few things and didn't have time to re-install it. The results were not good... I don't have any video since I was getting data, but, there are multiple points in the log where I was seeing low 20's psi oil pressure. As posted earlier, anything over 3,000rpm and I should be seeing 60psi still. The first picture below was a sweeping left hand turn. I saw a minimum of 26.5psi and then again in a sweeping right hand turn I was seeing as low as 23.5psi.

I think I am going to go change my oil and look for metal LOL



Here is a comparison I did last fall of accusump vs no accusump. It works!:


Top log shows 1 single <60psi event (49.5psi). Bottom logs shows that without the Accusump I had multiple ~4x.x psi data points. The 3qt Accusump was doing a decent job at keeping oil pressure supplemented.
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