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      04-21-2022, 05:43 PM   #1
matter57
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Continental ExtremeContact Force tire reports?

Wondering if anyone is running and can report on these new Continental ExtremeContact Forces?
Thinking about this tire or the Hankook RS4 for HPDE. Currently on Michelin PS4. Thanks, Matt
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      05-05-2022, 10:01 AM   #2
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How did you like the Michelins?
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      05-05-2022, 11:18 AM   #3
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I'm running PS4s on the front R888R on the rear, I love the setup hooks great,

I used to run all 4 PS4 on my f30, would recommend as well if you don't care as much about launch times
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      05-05-2022, 11:30 AM   #4
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First off my comments are in context of a fairly new car driver in the intermediate group.
The PS4s were very good especially in wet or cold track conditions. They talk to you when they approach the limits so thats good. My 228i had quite a bit of body roll before I got my new MCS suspension and the tire would roll over on sharp turns quite a bit so the edge and shoulder wore a lot. They were down to the cords on the edges so they got replaced with Falken RT660s & new Apex wheels
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      05-14-2022, 11:41 AM   #5
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I just replaced my Hankook RS4's with another set of RS4's.

They've gone up in price, and I seriously thought about a set of Falken RT660 instead, which were ~$100 cheaper for the set. But, the RS4 is still the gold standard for HPDE tires. Mainly because they last a long time. I got 8 solid big track HPDE weekends from them, over 3 years, and a few thousand street miles. Still had plenty of tread for HPDE, but they had gotten hard from winter storage and heat cycling, and just didn't brake well anymore. The RS4 is also known to be very consistent lap to lap, and my experience bore that out. They are bulletproof.

The RT660 gets really good reviews, and is the faster tire. But with a heavy F22 I was thinking I would only get a year from them, making the RS4 the better value. And as an intermediate HPDE driver, consistency and cheap long life is way more important to me than ultimate lap times.

Oh, and I also just replaced the OEM PSS with PS4S, but those are for street only. They just won't last on the track. (And boy was that an expensive day at the tire shop....)
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      05-14-2022, 02:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggggbmw View Post
I just replaced my Hankook RS4's with another set of RS4's.

They've gone up in price, and I seriously thought about a set of Falken RT660 instead, which were ~$100 cheaper for the set. But, the RS4 is still the gold standard for HPDE tires. Mainly because they last a long time. I got 8 solid big track HPDE weekends from them, over 3 years, and a few thousand street miles. Still had plenty of tread for HPDE, but they had gotten hard from winter storage and heat cycling, and just didn't brake well anymore. The RS4 is also known to be very consistent lap to lap, and my experience bore that out. They are bulletproof.

The RT660 gets really good reviews, and is the faster tire. But with a heavy F22 I was thinking I would only get a year from them, making the RS4 the better value. And as an intermediate HPDE driver, consistency and cheap long life is way more important to me than ultimate lap times.

Oh, and I also just replaced the OEM PSS with PS4S, but those are for street only. They just won't last on the track. (And boy was that an expensive day at the tire shop....)
Every day's an expensive day at the tire shop ain't it! I got the Falken RT660s mounted so I'll let you know but it should be a good tire. I can always try the RS4s later - not like I won't be buying more tires...
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      05-17-2022, 05:14 PM   #7
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If you are fairly new intermediate, probably best to stay with street tires. They are a lot easier to learn on, worth the extra cost at least to me.
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      05-17-2022, 05:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
If you are fairly new intermediate, probably best to stay with street tires. They are a lot easier to learn on, worth the extra cost at least to me.
That's curious opinion - if I understand you correctly. I'm interested in having you break it down. It seems to me that increased grip and handling as the pace goes up is a good thing. My experience with motorcycles is that to optimally use a 'race' tire the rider needs to put enough force into it to get it into its operating temperature range and that a slow rider won't be able to do that. But these aren't race tires- they are a high performance 200TW 'summer' tire i.e. street tire. In addition my suspension is improved which should make handling & braking better with a grippier tire.

Are you saying that the Falken RT660 is not a street tire and if so why is it more difficult to learn on? Are you recommending a non-performance tire and if so how are you defining that? And why?
Thanks for your comments!
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      05-17-2022, 06:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matter57 View Post
That's curious opinion - if I understand you correctly. I'm interested in having you break it down. It seems to me that increased grip and handling as the pace goes up is a good thing. My experience with motorcycles is that to optimally use a 'race' tire the rider needs to put enough force into it to get it into its operating temperature range and that a slow rider won't be able to do that. But these aren't race tires- they are a high performance 200TW 'summer' tire i.e. street tire. In addition my suspension is improved which should make handling & braking better with a grippier tire.

Are you saying that the Falken RT660 is not a street tire and if so why is it more difficult to learn on? Are you recommending a non-performance tire and if so how are you defining that? And why?
Thanks for your comments!
The recc I consistently get (and share) is that street tires (c.300TW) tires are best for development/learning. The reasons are that they are more predictable and communicative, better in wet, and the lower speeds mean that you are learning car control and the limits of traction at a lower velocity, so safer and easier to correct. The basic tenet is that until you can drive your car consistently at its limits, spend the money on driver skill rather than performance add-ons that just take the car's limit that much further from you. Track tires are often designed for specific track uses, so some are great autoX but very 'peaky' in terms of wear/temp. They have higher traction levels, but usually within a much narrower window, so they 'fall off' or break traction fast and somewhat unpredictably, often without the noises that would alert you that you are at their limit. Your comparison to motorcycle tires is a bit off, as the 200TW tires are not really street tires, they are 'street' (cheater/track-day) tires and usually quite heat/pressure sensitive. True that those track compounds are capable of more grip and faster times, but you won't be learning as much or improving as fast. Ask around with the instructors at your next track day and I suspect you will get similar advice.
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      05-18-2022, 01:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
The recc I consistently get (and share) is that street tires (c.300TW) tires are best for development/learning. The reasons are that they are more predictable and communicative, better in wet, and the lower speeds mean that you are learning car control and the limits of traction at a lower velocity, so safer and easier to correct. The basic tenet is that until you can drive your car consistently at its limits, spend the money on driver skill rather than performance add-ons that just take the car's limit that much further from you. Track tires are often designed for specific track uses, so some are great autoX but very 'peaky' in terms of wear/temp. They have higher traction levels, but usually within a much narrower window, so they 'fall off' or break traction fast and somewhat unpredictably, often without the noises that would alert you that you are at their limit. Your comparison to motorcycle tires is a bit off, as the 200TW tires are not really street tires, they are 'street' (cheater/track-day) tires and usually quite heat/pressure sensitive. True that those track compounds are capable of more grip and faster times, but you won't be learning as much or improving as fast. Ask around with the instructors at your next track day and I suspect you will get similar advice.
good comments thanks Maynard. The Falkens are on so I'll see see how everything goes this Friday compared with the 4S. I agree completely about investing in driver skills and get coaching at least every other track day for 1/2 to a full day. thanks again
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      05-18-2022, 08:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
If you are fairly new intermediate, probably best to stay with street tires. They are a lot easier to learn on, worth the extra cost at least to me.
I'm running the Hankook RS4, and went at this a bit differently. I am only running a 225 width on these (square). Not the more common 245 or wider that many people run. Before I bought them, I asked several advanced/instructor drivers for input. They advised that a narrower width would teach me better skills, and frankly I think they were right. With the weight and power of these cars, and a narrowish 225 width, I am definitely traction limited. Especially accelerating out of a corner.

The 225 is also CHEAPER (notice a theme?) than the 245, and the narrower rims were less too. And, smaller/narrower means LIGHTER, and that's always good. (Also why I run 17".)

If you don't go for a wide super-sticky version, I would also argue that an endurance/HPDE oriented tire like the RS4 is better to learn on than a street tire. First, they have a much stiffer sidewall. This makes them more predictable, and better steering than even a high performance tire like a PS4S on the track. And an endurance tire will be way more consistent than a street tire, with less 'greasiness' as they heat up.

Your point about auto-x or time trial oriented tires, like the (no longer available) Bridgestone RE71 is valid. They can have a lot variability as they heat up. But not all 'track' tires are like that.

Also a street tire will wear incredibly fast, to the point you could eat a set up in a weekend. Especially with newbie understeer/scrubbing. Keeping costs down means more money for track time, which will lead to more and faster learning. I figure my RS4 are lasting at least 4-5x what a street tire would, and that's easily the price of 2-3 track weekends.

Another reason I originally went narrow was to keep the car in the 'F Street' class for auto-x. Ended up not doing much auto-x, but all the other reasons made the 225 RS4 the best choice for me.

Last edited by ggggbmw; 05-18-2022 at 08:20 PM..
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      05-19-2022, 07:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggggbmw View Post
I'm running the Hankook RS4, and went at this a bit differently. I am only running a 225 width on these (square). Not the more common 245 or wider that many people run. Before I bought them, I asked several advanced/instructor drivers for input. They advised that a narrower width would teach me better skills, and frankly I think they were right. With the weight and power of these cars, and a narrowish 225 width, I am definitely traction limited. Especially accelerating out of a corner.

The 225 is also CHEAPER (notice a theme?) than the 245, and the narrower rims were less too. And, smaller/narrower means LIGHTER, and that's always good. (Also why I run 17".)

If you don't go for a wide super-sticky version, I would also argue that an endurance/HPDE oriented tire like the RS4 is better to learn on than a street tire. First, they have a much stiffer sidewall. This makes them more predictable, and better steering than even a high performance tire like a PS4S on the track. And an endurance tire will be way more consistent than a street tire, with less 'greasiness' as they heat up.

Your point about auto-x or time trial oriented tires, like the (no longer available) Bridgestone RE71 is valid. They can have a lot variability as they heat up. But not all 'track' tires are like that.

Also a street tire will wear incredibly fast, to the point you could eat a set up in a weekend. Especially with newbie understeer/scrubbing. Keeping costs down means more money for track time, which will lead to more and faster learning. I figure my RS4 are lasting at least 4-5x what a street tire would, and that's easily the price of 2-3 track weekends.

Another reason I originally went narrow was to keep the car in the 'F Street' class for auto-x. Ended up not doing much auto-x, but all the other reasons made the 225 RS4 the best choice for me.

This is an excellent approach as well, and you make a good point about the benefits of a track-designed carcass and better lifespan. And with extra bonus points for totally bucking the 'bigger is better' BS and going lighter.
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      05-19-2022, 09:45 AM   #13
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Although in general the wider tyre will give more grip, ther may also be other changes needed to actually optimise that grip and keep the most tread in contact with the tarmac. If a different tyre compound and carcass construction is available in a narrower size, it may have as much if not more grip.

As an example, I have run 3 different tyres and two different camber angles on the rear of my Caterham on the track. 195/50-15 RE-71R, 180/530-13 Pirelli slick (equivalent to a 235 wide road tyre) and 235/45-13 AR-1. All tyres have been run at 1.5 degrees rear camber, The AR-1 is currently on and has been changed to 2.7 degrees rear camber.

To get the optimum grip based on maximum tread contact with each tyre, optimum sidewall roll and tread temperature and bearing in mind each rear wheel has approximately 175kg (390 lbs) of load on them, At 1.5 degrees of camber and cold tyres:
195/15-15: 1.25 bar (18PSI)
180/530-13: 1.10 bar (16PSI) - stiff sidewall and moderate tread flexibility
235/45-13: 1.00 bar (14.5PSI) - soft sidewalls but more rigid tread

When I increased camber to 2.7 degrees the 235/45-13 tyre needed 0.90 bar (13.5 PSI) to keep the optimum tread contact, which equates to about 1.30 bar (19PSI) when hot, a pressure I wouldn't want to drop below to avoid popping the bead off the rim.

Bottom line is you may need more camber and a different tyre pressure to optimise use of a wider tyre.
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