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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum BMW 2 Series (F22) Forum BMW 2 Series Coupe and Cabriolet (F22/F23) General Forum BMW M2 engine of choice poll

View Poll Results: What is your engine of choice for the upcoming M2?
i4, and I won't buy an M2 otherwise 14 2.75%
I4, but I don't really care either way and I would consider an M2 regardless 70 13.73%
I6, but I don't really care either way and I would consider an M2 regardless 124 24.31%
I6 only for me. I ain't buying an M2 with anything else 302 59.22%
Voters: 510. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-04-2013, 08:44 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
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Originally Posted by Mangler View Post
I just drove the new 328i today and I have to say, that car with a tune would be perfect daily driver.

It's faster than my n54 335i stock for stock.

The gearing in the new tranny is what makes the difference. You might be surprised if you ran the numbers on acceleration of the new 328i vs the s14b23. That 328 weighs a hell of a lot more but also has a hell of a lot more torque <4500 rpm where the s14 can finally get out if its own way.

I've owned all the cars listed here. There are classics that are special and new cars that are special. You can't compare Jim Brown to Adrian Petersen. Same position different era.

The ///M2 will be special. The only ///M car that wasn't was our E36 332is Mtechnik.

T
I really want to get some seat time in a N20 powered 3-series with a chip. I know they can top 300 whp, but I really question the drivability. I used to be a VW guy, and I knew a handful of people with chipped 1.8T and 2.0T cars that made crazy power, but man, the character was just garbage.

Yes I realize how unfair that comparison is when you consider the dual-inlet geometry turbos and more advanced fuel injection used on modern BMW engines, but there are limits imposed by physics. When you start pushing 300+ HP out of a 2 liter I4, I become deeply suspect. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've really been looking forward to the M2, so I'm not going to cut them any slack if they do go with the turbo I4. It had better be spectacular, and any hint of a laggy turbo character just isn't going to fly with me.
The perception of reduced turbo lag in the N20 is the 8 speed gearing down so quickly. The quick ratios on that tranny is amazing. The new 328i will be special with tune. That engine/trans are very well matched. I haven't driven the 335i with the 8 speed but it must be nice too.

I have faith in M as long as its on their terms and not pressure from marketing to get one into the market (E36 M3).

T
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      05-04-2013, 05:58 PM   #156
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Variable turbos are much better for turbo lag. I also read somewhere that electric turbos may have no lag at all (and can be considered an energy efficiency gizmo to some extent).
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      05-05-2013, 02:42 AM   #157
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You know what? I quite like this idea of a S38:

"C/D: BMW is working on a compact vehicle architecture that will be fitted with three-cylinder engines. Is that a topic of discussion for you as well?
FN: The three-cylinder is an attractive engine. It is possible to reach around 185 to 200 horsepower per liter in a forced-induction three-cylinder and we have 1.5 liters of displacement. Such an engine, which, by the way, sounds very similar to a six-cylinder engine, would have over 310 horsepower. And we are not even at the limit there. Generally speaking, I could imagine such an engine."
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      05-05-2013, 02:45 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
You know what? I quite like this idea of a S38:

Werks testwagens are already been rolling out on the streets...

1.5L 3 cylinder turbo = 310 HP

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      05-05-2013, 08:06 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
While I agree that a lighter car does not need to have the same HP target, I think for competitive reasons, BMW are bound by a few things in terms of the HP numbers for the M2:
  1. [*]The M2 cannot have less HP than the M235 or the 1M
  2. The M2 has to be competitive with the CLA AMG 45 and the RS3, not neccesarily match them, but at least be in the ball park

For these reasons, I don't think that 300 HP will do regardless of weight, I think they have to be targeting the 340-350 range.

Speaking of the CLA AMG 45, does that car really have the highest specific output of any production car ever?
The current champ is the Porsche 911 GT2 RS pushing 620 HP from 3600 CC which puts it at 172.2 HP per liter. If the speculation about the Merc having 360 HP from a 2.0 I4 is true, that would put it at 180 HP per liter !!
Is that for real? How insane is that
Why does it have to have more power than the 1M. The M4 will have the same power as the E9X and F80 M3's. BMW is putting more emphasis on the power to weight ratio versus just giving the car more power.
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      05-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
While I agree that a lighter car does not need to have the same HP target, I think for competitive reasons, BMW are bound by a few things in terms of the HP numbers for the M2:
  1. [*]The M2 cannot have less HP than the M235 or the 1M
  2. The M2 has to be competitive with the CLA AMG 45 and the RS3, not neccesarily match them, but at least be in the ball park

For these reasons, I don't think that 300 HP will do regardless of weight, I think they have to be targeting the 340-350 range.

Speaking of the CLA AMG 45, does that car really have the highest specific output of any production car ever?
The current champ is the Porsche 911 GT2 RS pushing 620 HP from 3600 CC which puts it at 172.2 HP per liter. If the speculation about the Merc having 360 HP from a 2.0 I4 is true, that would put it at 180 HP per liter !!
Is that for real? How insane is that
Why does it have to have more power than the 1M. The M4 will have the same power as the E9X and F80 M3's. BMW is putting more emphasis on the power to weight ratio versus just giving the car more power.
I didn't say that the M2 has to have more power than the 1M, I said it cannot have less!
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      05-05-2013, 08:58 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
I didn't say that the M2 has to have more power than the 1M, I said it cannot have less!
I think it might surprise everyone. I would even say an internal target of 310hp is very likely.

I know you can't read into things, but it is really interesting for them to state that the B38 is good for 185hp to 200hp per litre, and then follow on to say 1.5L gives 310hp. 200 x 1.5 is 300hp and not 310hp. German engineers being precise usually would not state something like this unless they are already working towards a target.

Interestingly, if the car is 1400kg (a saving of 100kg), it will give a power to weight ratio of 220hp/tonne, very similar to the current 1M.

I am not saying we are going to have a M spec 3 cylinder turbo, but I am saying that 310hp is the target HP.

Imagine a tri-scroll turbo, with a E-turbo setup. It would be something very special.
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      05-06-2013, 06:35 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos
Isn't the B38 a 3 cylinder 1.5L? Anyway the down side of an I4 has to be more lag than an I6 with the same HP target assuming similar technology
Yes it is. But, an inline 3 has many of the characteristics (better sound and smoother than an i4) of an inline 6 in a smaller, lighter package. An i3 would also have all of its weight a a good bit behind the front wheels, which really be good for handling. As you can tell, I really like the b38. Lol

A smaller engine doesn't necessarily mean more lag. The N20 is already pushing 270hp. With a better intake, exhaust, and maybe a small displacement bump you could easily be at 300hp. None of those things will increase the lag at all. And since an i4 is lighter, it doesn't have to have the same hp target as an i6.
Smoother than an i4? Ahahhaha

The words of someone who's never driven a 3cyl

They sound and shake like a tractor.

Ed: do any of you really want the m1/m2 to be slower than the m135i or m235i? Or the previous 1m coupe?

400hp 6cyl or it fails, plain and simple.
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      05-06-2013, 06:41 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd1981
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3DL1N3 View Post
TT i6 - 350 horsepower please. A 4 cyl would be right maxed out, leaving little on the bone for tuning etc. he'll for 2 grand the 1m can put out 400+ horsepower and even more torque at the wheels. Why would u want a 4 (or less!) unless the weight was WAY down, say 3k lbs. BMW please stick with your legendary i6!
Yes please stick with the I6 and for Pete's sake keep the weight at the current 135i/1M @ 3200 please
The current 1m is more like 3500+ lol
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      05-06-2013, 06:42 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangler View Post
I just drove the new 328i today and I have to say, that car with a tune would be perfect daily driver.

It's faster than my n54 335i stock for stock.

The gearing in the new tranny is what makes the difference. You might be surprised if you ran the numbers on acceleration of the new 328i vs the s14b23. That 328 weighs a hell of a lot more but also has a hell of a lot more torque <4500 rpm where the s14 can finally get out if its own way.

I've owned all the cars listed here. There are classics that are special and new cars that are special. You can't compare Jim Brown to Adrian Petersen. Same position different era.

The ///M2 will be special. The only ///M car that wasn't was our E36 332is Mtechnik.

T
I really want to get some seat time in a N20 powered 3-series with a chip. I know they can top 300 whp, but I really question the drivability. I used to be a VW guy, and I knew a handful of people with chipped 1.8T and 2.0T cars that made crazy power, but man, the character was just garbage.

Yes I realize how unfair that comparison is when you consider the dual-inlet geometry turbos and more advanced fuel injection used on modern BMW engines, but there are limits imposed by physics. When you start pushing 300+ HP out of a 2 liter I4, I become deeply suspect. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've really been looking forward to the M2, so I'm not going to cut them any slack if they do go with the turbo I4. It had better be spectacular, and any hint of a laggy turbo character just isn't going to fly with me.
With good turbos tuning exhaust heads etc.. 300hp is a cakewalk for a 2.0t 4cyl

Its not til 400-450 it needs a bigger turbo and starts getting laggy and hard to daily haha
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      05-06-2013, 09:51 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
400hp 6cyl or it fails, plain and simple.
You are clearly in for a lot of disappointment. As for it being slower than an M235i in a straight line, sure, I really don't care. I'm okay with the M235i catering to the recent round of hp folks that BMW has attracted since the N54 came along and the M2 catering to the longer term BMW fans who were accustomed to BMW's not necessarily being straight line performers, but balanced performers that could out handle most other cars. Think E36 (euro) or E46 M3's. With the F8x car providing good power and lots of torque, I really hope BMW takes a different approach with the M2 and doesn't chase magazine numbers, but goes for the fun to drive factor like they achieved with the 1M.
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      05-06-2013, 01:19 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You are clearly in for a lot of disappointment. As for it being slower than an M235i in a straight line, sure, I really don't care. I'm okay with the M235i catering to the recent round of hp folks that BMW has attracted since the N54 came along and the M2 catering to the longer term BMW fans who were accustomed to BMW's not necessarily being straight line performers, but balanced performers that could out handle most other cars. Think E36 (euro) or E46 M3's. With the F8x car providing good power and lots of torque, I really hope BMW takes a different approach with the M2 and doesn't chase magazine numbers, but goes for the fun to drive factor like they achieved with the 1M.
While 400 Hp is definitely not gonna happen, I completely disagree with your post also. You are in a very tiny minority of buyers who does not care about straight line speed, and Hp numbers. There is no way BMW can charge more for a car that is slower than the M235i. Not happening

Since you mentioned the M2's predecessor the 1M, BMW has already shown that they can make a car that is both fast in a straight line and a lot of fun to drive. Why mess with a winning formula?

The cheaper route for BMW (which also happens to be the preferred option by most on this forum according to this survey) is to continue the same formula of the 1M, with a little more power from a Turbo I6 and a little less weight. 350-360 Hp and 3200 lbs would be realistic in my humble opinion.
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      05-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
While 400 Hp is definitely not gonna happen, I completely disagree with your post also. You are in a very tiny minority of buyers who does not care about straight line speed, and Hp numbers. There is no way BMW can charge more for a car that is slower than the M235i. Not happening

Since you mentioned the M2's predecessor the 1M, BMW has already shown that they can make a car that is both fast in a straight line and a lot of fun to drive. Why mess with a winning formula?

The cheaper route for BMW (which also happens to be the preferred option by most on this forum according to this survey) is to continue the same formula of the 1M, with a little more power from a Turbo I6 and a little less weight. 350-360 Hp and 3200 lbs would be realistic in my humble opinion.
I'm not really arguing for a slower car, just willing to accept lower power provided it comes with lower weight too. I'd taken similar straight line performance with significantly better handling. Look at the STI, which has sold well in spite of the fact that the regular WRX is quicker. The STI makes up for it with better handling and more robust bits. That sort of compromise is acceptable to me.

Again, BMW will have tons of options here, between the M2, M4, M235i and 435i/M435i, you should be able to pick any number of quick cars (all of which will be far from the quickest in their price range) and making one stand out as different seems likes a real possibility here, rather than creating four similar slices of bratwurst. The 1M was not significantly quicker than a DSG 135i or a 335is, yet it certainly has maintained better resale and more community love than either of those.
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      05-06-2013, 02:58 PM   #168
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It is interesting and a bit worrying why BMW is still not clearing up the fundamental questions here about the engine choice of next M2. It's been sometime since 1M production ceased and the new generation 1 series hatch models have been around the Globe for more than a year now. So why this hesitance or slowness, this makes me think; if they are going to benefit from all this longer development period vs. limited period for 1M which they keep on saying, then they should be working on the minor details already not this pre-engine category discussion.

Either they are working on a surprise 4 cylinder (or 3) which will be able to give similar performance to M2 compared to both 1M and at least new A45AMG to be competitive or they will offer a version of existing I6s and in both cases they don't want to make their choice public (I believe they already made their mind, decision is taken). Maybe a desire to watch market reaction to next M3/M4 first? Not to let certain potential buyers of next M3/M4 choose to wait for the M2? Or to see how well newcomers like A45 AMG, next RS3 or a Alfa 4C fare against each other and existing BMW models?

Despite the success of 1M and now M135i I still sense a half-heartedness of BMW with regard to their "entry level M car". It is still not a priority. Hope I am wrong.
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      05-06-2013, 04:24 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You are clearly in for a lot of disappointment. As for it being slower than an M235i in a straight line, sure, I really don't care. I'm okay with the M235i catering to the recent round of hp folks that BMW has attracted since the N54 came along and the M2 catering to the longer term BMW fans who were accustomed to BMW's not necessarily being straight line performers, but balanced performers that could out handle most other cars. Think E36 (euro) or E46 M3's. With the F8x car providing good power and lots of torque, I really hope BMW takes a different approach with the M2 and doesn't chase magazine numbers, but goes for the fun to drive factor like they achieved with the 1M.
remember that M suspension fits in non-M cars... and an M car is a LOT more expensive as a rule.. if the M235i is faster in a straight line but slower around corners.. a couple thousand $ in suspension and an LSD saes you money and gets you a faster car.

if you on't think all previous m-cars absolutely dominate all other cars in their class in a straight line... you're crazy haha - both those M3's had 300+hp (320+) stock N/A with room for more (!!)

yeah it' going to be incredibly balanced and handle amazingly, but they're not going to let it be out-driven on the track by a non-M.. and sorry to say, but power matters in that case.
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      05-06-2013, 04:31 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I'm not really arguing for a slower car, just willing to accept lower power provided it comes with lower weight too. I'd taken similar straight line performance with significantly better handling. Look at the STI, which has sold well in spite of the fact that the regular WRX is quicker. The STI makes up for it with better handling and more robust bits. That sort of compromise is acceptable to me.

Again, BMW will have tons of options here, between the M2, M4, M235i and 435i/M435i, you should be able to pick any number of quick cars (all of which will be far from the quickest in their price range) and making one stand out as different seems likes a real possibility here, rather than creating four similar slices of bratwurst. The 1M was not significantly quicker than a DSG 135i or a 335is, yet it certainly has maintained better resale and more community love than either of those.
uhhhh the regular WRX isn't quicker hahaa

STI has more power (like... 80hp more), better suspension, brakes, wider chassis (yes the whole floorpan is wider), lighter wheels.. heck even the internals and turbo of the engine are uprated from factory for easier tuning

i mean... what???.. and the 1m was certainly faster, yeah the later N54 'lower' models had similar power (and easier to tune being a regular MSD81 lol)... but the suspension, LSD, brakes, wide body/wheels/tires...
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      05-06-2013, 04:34 PM   #171
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Which is exactly why I hope the M2 deviates from the norm of just adding more suspension, brakes and motor. Losing weight would be something that would clearly differentiate the M cars from the M-Sport and keep the simple parts swaps from creating an equal car. It's unlikely to happen, but since we still don't know why the M3/M4 have different chassis codes than the F3x cars, there's hope that someone at BMW has thought of this too.
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      05-07-2013, 08:09 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Which is exactly why I hope the M2 deviates from the norm of just adding more suspension, brakes and motor. Losing weight would be something that would clearly differentiate the M cars from the M-Sport and keep the simple parts swaps from creating an equal car. It's unlikely to happen, but since we still don't know why the M3/M4 have different chassis codes than the F3x cars, there's hope that someone at BMW has thought of this too.
I'd love to see M-cars on a serious diet, but I wonder where they'll shave the pounds. In recent years, M-cars have become more quiet and refined. Not to mention all the safety requirements. All that stuff adds weight. It'd be tough for BMW to go backward in that regard. IMO, big weight savings won't come until we see a change in building materials. That means less steel and more composites. That's an expensive proposition though.

There's a 1987 1911 Carrera 3.2 around the corner from me with a $16k asking price. I'm seriously considering showing up with $14k cash and making that my next car. No power steering, around 2800 lbs, naturally aspirated, and fully engaging to drive. No, it's nowhere near as fast as an M2 will be, but the pure driving experience can't be matched by any modern production car that costs less than $100k. They're all numb and isolated by comparison.

I wonder how many people longing for an E30 wouldn't be better off finding an aging 911 to put in the garage. We have a very well optioned X3 for day-to-day stuff. The M2 would only be for the joy of driving. I'd just go and buy an E30 M3 if they weren't so hard to find (and expensive). That 911 3.2 is looking really attractive.
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      05-07-2013, 08:26 AM   #173
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Numerous tests have the WRX bring a good bit quicker than the STI in a straight line, especially under 100.

You seem to be confusing yourself by wanting to argue straight line and track performance alternatively.
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      05-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Either they are working on a surprise 4 cylinder (or 3) which will be able to give similar performance to M2 compared to both 1M and at least new A45AMG to be competitive or they will offer a version of existing I6s and in both cases they don't want to make their choice public (I believe they already made their mind, decision is taken). Maybe a desire to watch market reaction to next M3/M4 first? Not to let certain potential buyers of next M3/M4 choose to wait for the M2? Or to see how well newcomers like A45 AMG, next RS3 or a Alfa 4C fare against each other and existing BMW models?

Despite the success of 1M and now M135i I still sense a half-heartedness of BMW with regard to their "entry level M car". It is still not a priority. Hope I am wrong.
I think witch platform will be best and I chooce I6, it just sound better with turbos and when redline is 7000. 1M whit akrapovic , but some Mitsubishi Evo whith aftermarket exhaust or F30 328i, sound like vacuum cleaner. I3 and I4 needs balance shafts too, so not smooth or fast revving than I6.

Bmw has only manufacturer which prefer Inline six and I think they should be keep it that way. Bmw is also manufacturer which keep things "old school", M2 will got Lsd, rwd, over 300bhp, manual gearbox and hopefully L6 engine, what Audi or Merc offers? fwd based awd and turbocharged I4 engine which is located in front of the front axle and only choose to get car is flappy paddle gearbox.
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      05-07-2013, 10:21 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Numerous tests have the WRX bring a good bit quicker than the STI in a straight line, especially under 100.

You seem to be confusing yourself by wanting to argue straight line and track performance alternatively.
Calling the WRX quicker is a pretty disingenuous argument. Everything I've read shows that the WRX wins by a very narrow margin at the 60 MPH mark because of a difference in shift points. Basically, the STi has one extra gear change before the 60 MPH mark. I would not call it a sacrifice in straight-line performance. I'd call it winning on a technicality. If you were to race the cars right next to each other, it'd be a dead heat until the STi starts to pull away because of the greater HP. In the quarter mile, the STi tromps the WRX. That's hardly a "compromise" for the STi, and hardly a "win" for the WRX.

It also doesn't support your broader argument, because it's not really a compromise. Nobody cares about performance at *exactly* 60 MPH. Ok, so some people do, but those people are idiots Even when you're talking about "straight-line" performance, the STi dominates the WRX in the quarter-mile.

It's really hard to find a top-tier performance car that makes any compromises to a lower-tier car of the same model. I don't believe BMW would be successful in making that a reality for the M2. You might be willing to accept compromises, but the general buying public are not, or at least there are no good examples of a case where they have shown that they are.
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      05-07-2013, 01:20 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
It's really hard to find a top-tier performance car that makes any compromises to a lower-tier car of the same model. I don't believe BMW would be successful in making that a reality for the M2. You might be willing to accept compromises, but the general buying public are not, or at least there are no good examples of a case where they have shown that they are.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but wouldn't the GT3 qualify in most eyes as significantly higher performance than the much quicker Turbo? I realize Porsche is much further along the road of true track cars than BMW, but they've certainly created the market for a slower car having more prestige.
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