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      05-18-2020, 12:49 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Quiet Saturday morning musings:

Does anything to the right of the decimal point matter or is it even reliable?

What is the difference between 4.2 and "like" 4.2?
I couldn’t quite recall if 4.2 was BMW’s official published number and didn’t really care enough to look into it further, hence the “like”. Perhaps if I had substituted “IIRC” for “like”, I would have been more clear, but then who knows what you would have spent your Saturday morning musing about. Probably snow tires.
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      05-18-2020, 01:10 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by B58togo View Post
Perhaps if I had substituted “IIRC” for “like”, I would have been more clear, but then who knows what you would have spent your Saturday morning musing about. Probably snow tires.
Waaay too soon for snow tires....80F+ and sunny!

Never too soon to stamp out "like"! Some folks here have actually started or interrupted their own sentences by typing that nonsensical filler!

BTW, that was just a Saturday...catch me on a weekday when I've got all 4 cylinders engaged!
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      05-18-2020, 02:37 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14 View Post
Much harder to do with a MT. Not only do you have to hit the correct shift points, but you also have to been super clean/quick with your shifts.

I enjoy manuals more than autos. But I'm not about to argue about which one is quicker and more repeatable.
Sometimes just my right hand and arm miss driving stick, power shifting and down shifting and feeling the hard kick from aggressive shifts, but I've always had an auto to switch to during rush hour or when I was lazy or had an injury. I haven't owned a stick in over 4 years now, and tried driving one a couple months back, and wasn't a complete fail, but still embarrassing.

My question is...is the MPG in an auto really better than a stick, if you can coast in neutral and shift at a lower RPM and reduce weight plus I wouldn't want to keep shifting with an auto tranny?
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      05-18-2020, 02:50 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
With differences in driver skill, tire compound, tire temperature and inflation, weight of fuel and driver onboard, road surface material/temperature, etc.....the results can vary further. But, I am left to wonder why anyone not on a track would care about anything to the right of the decimal? Why don't we just enjoy how the car feels to drive?
I've never raced on a track, but it's nice to know what your car is capable and how it compares to older or newer models especially if you're looking to trade for a newer version and to see how the car measures up to other makes and models.

While 0.2 seconds doesn't mean as much in this situation, if you had had a choice of a car that did 1/4 mile 12.9 sec stock vs 13.1 secs, or 13.1 secs or 13.9 secs even not tracking I'd go with the lower number. Numbers on paper help sell cars and depending on the car it can be something to brag about.
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      05-18-2020, 05:15 PM   #115
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.... But, I am left to wonder why anyone not on a track would care about anything to the right of the decimal? Why don't we just enjoy how the car feels to drive?
Duh! - 'cause, then, like, you don't have anything to, like, brag about - duh! My bruh is like 'I can go 60 in like 3.9' and I'm like 'damn, I gotta get a better car'.
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      05-18-2020, 05:28 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
.... But, I am left to wonder why anyone not on a track would care about anything to the right of the decimal? Why don't we just enjoy how the car feels to drive?
Duh! - 'cause, then, like, you don't have anything to, like, brag about - duh! My bruh is like 'I can go 60 in like 3.9' and I'm like 'damn, I gotta get a better car'.
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      05-18-2020, 06:58 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Duh! - 'cause, then, like, you don't have anything to, like, brag about - duh! My bruh is like 'I can go 60 in like 3.9' and I'm like 'damn, I gotta get a better car'.
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      05-18-2020, 07:00 PM   #118
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.
And we come full circle. My car can go "fast". It just has a slower rate of acceleration than the M240i or M2.

(P.S. Sorry about "fast" versus "quickly" but reacting to the graphic.)
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      05-18-2020, 07:39 PM   #119
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Just one more comment. BMW knew what they were doing when they introduced the B48/46. The stock B46 now is at 302hp in some models. i had to tune my 2017 to achieve that. That's not quite car too fast, but maybe car too fun!
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      05-18-2020, 08:40 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Winemaker2 View Post
Just one more comment. BMW knew what they were doing when they introduced the B48/46. The stock B46 now is at 302hp in some models. i had to tune my 2017 to achieve that. That's not quite car too fast, but maybe car too fun!
No dude, you should have started a new thread channeling the great Shovelman titled "Car too fun ?".

In Shovelman fashion you should have begun talking about the "works of man" and toasters, and then threw this forum another doozy by going even more meta than Shovelman.

That would have been epic.
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      05-19-2020, 05:19 AM   #121
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And the great Shovelman takes an enigmatic bow.

(not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the hardest working)
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      05-19-2020, 06:46 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Shovelman View Post
And the great Shovelman takes an enigmatic bow.

(not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the hardest working)
Well, I think you started a thought provoking thread Shovelman. Well done i'd say
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      05-19-2020, 07:20 AM   #123
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So you said it

" It's not faster or more efficient or easier, it just lets me be true to my nature."

Finding what makes you really smile is what matters I couldn't agree more. We so often get influenced by marketing and what our buddies approve off.

That's why I am still driving stick shift and changed the final drive ratio. I get to rev the engine more, even at slow commuting speeds. I drove the F80 M3 but decided against it. It was just not as much fun at slow speeds! That happens with many over-engineered cars these days who have to beat Nürburgring times. Most of the M models are like this. Too heavy and they lost the fun part. They are like overweight pigs that have been made to dance through engineering .

What about having too much power? Is having 4 servings of fries with your steak better? Perhaps if you weigh 350 pounds and haven't eaten for a day, absolutely. But if you weigh little and eat three times a day it only upsets your stomach. Leads to long term health issues too.

A few of you commented you can't have too much power. There will be always moments where that is great to have. Just don't loose the fun for the remaining 99% of time. I agree!
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      05-19-2020, 07:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Shovelman View Post
And the great Shovelman takes an enigmatic bow.

(not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the hardest working)
You crack me up man thank you!
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      05-19-2020, 07:24 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Heitzer View Post
So you said it

" It's not faster or more efficient or easier, it just lets me be true to my nature."

Finding what makes you really smile is what matters I couldn't agree more. We so often get influenced by marketing and what our buddies approve off.

That's why I am still driving stick shift and changed the final drive ratio. I get to rev the engine more, even at slow commuting speeds. I drove the F80 M3 but decided against it. It was just not as much fun at slow speeds! That happens with many over-engineered cars these days who have to beat Nürburgring times. Most of the M models are like this. Too heavy and they lost the fun part. They are like overweight pigs that have been made to dance through engineering .

What about having too much power? Is having 4 servings of fries with your steak better? Perhaps if you weigh 350 pounds and haven't eaten for a day, absolutely. But if you weigh little and eat three times a day it only upsets your stomach. Leads to long term health issues too.

A few of you commented you can't have too much power. There will be always moments where that is great to have. Just don't loose the fun for the remaining 99% of time. I agree!
Sounds like you need a.... I am not going to say it.

Perhaps this should suffice?
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      05-22-2020, 05:56 PM   #126
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Chiming in late, and I haven'y read all the posts.

But there is a point to be made here. Engineering is about systems and optimizing for usage situations and use-cases.

In an infrastructure and legal system where most driving is at 10-75 mph, and any more than that seriously increases risks to life, limb and fellow pedestrian/motorists....one can argue the 2 series and all BMW and modern cars are poorly engineered for the purpose at hands. Great cars and full of individual technical marvels. but the OP has a point.

Hence why the Miata is popular with its 130-155 HP motor, as are Kei cars in Japan with 0.6 cc engines...and their owners have as much if not more fun.

In another analogy...there's a reason why in computing, Intel computers and processors are "too fast" and ARM "systems on a chip" are taking over the world...or why individual computers themselves are "too fast" and much of modern infrastructure is run on virtual cloud CPUs...

(speaking as someone who added a miata as a second car to their 228i w/ dinan stage I/shockware...)
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      05-22-2020, 06:17 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caycep View Post
Chiming in late, and I haven'y read all the posts.

But there is a point to be made here. Engineering is about systems and optimizing for usage situations and use-cases.

In an infrastructure and legal system where most driving is at 10-75 mph, and any more than that seriously increases risks to life, limb and fellow pedestrian/motorists....one can argue the 2 series and all BMW and modern cars are poorly engineered for the purpose at hands. Great cars and full of individual technical marvels. but the OP has a point.

Hence why the Miata is popular with its 130-155 HP motor, as are Kei cars in Japan with 0.6 cc engines...and their owners have as much if not more fun.

In another analogy...there's a reason why in computing, Intel computers and processors are "too fast" and ARM "systems on a chip" are taking over the world...or why individual computers themselves are "too fast" and much of modern infrastructure is run on virtual cloud CPUs...

(speaking as someone who added a miata as a second car to their 228i w/ dinan stage I/shockware...)
Thank you for adding a meaningful contribution to the conversation.

Following your main point, I would argue that our cars are not poorly-engineered, but are instead over-engineered. That is, they simply do much more than they need to or is necessary. And please believe me, I'm the last guy to argue against that, as wretched excess has been the hallmark of my existence. Thankfully, my parents are no longer available to hear me admit this.

There are, of course, exceptions to that generalization. In my case, I wanted a street/track car. I chose to not take a Cayman/Miata/BRZ (each of which would have been much better on the track (and much less better on the street (for me))). Not being willing to go hardcore two-seater, and, being a BMW guy from way back, I chose the BMW that best fit my needs.

As Throttlesteer14 has expressed so well, the BMW is not going to hold a candle to the Cayman on the track. However, when I travel to Whitefish, MT for the summer, the BMW is the car for me. The Cayman, as spectacular as it is (and it really is), is not a car I would want to take on a 4K-mile round trip.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––

Possibly Interesting Side-Note: Before I retired in the early 90s, I worked for a Japanese Big-Four company. They were making exceptionally high-quality hard drives for a variety of applications. The only problem was: they were too high-quality. Imagine that, right!

The market was changing so rapidly at the time that the limited size of those HDs didn't allow the manufacturer to recover its costs. It didn't matter that they were insanely reliable; the speed and capacity of lesser drives soon passed them by.

For those who don't understand the concept, there is such a thing as making a product that is so perfect at what it does; and, more importantly, costs accordingly, that the market ends up passing it by before the development costs can be recouped. Then the out-sized profits that were projected never come to pass.

Think...Tesla. Or not. I look forward to finding out while I tool around in my lowly 2 Series!
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      05-22-2020, 06:40 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caycep View Post
Chiming in late, and I haven'y read all the posts.

But there is a point to be made here. Engineering is about systems and optimizing for usage situations and use-cases.

In an infrastructure and legal system where most driving is at 10-75 mph, and any more than that seriously increases risks to life, limb and fellow pedestrian/motorists....one can argue the 2 series and all BMW and modern cars are poorly engineered for the purpose at hands. Great cars and full of individual technical marvels. but the OP has a point.

Hence why the Miata is popular with its 130-155 HP motor, as are Kei cars in Japan with 0.6 cc engines...and their owners have as much if not more fun.

In another analogy...there's a reason why in computing, Intel computers and processors are "too fast" and ARM "systems on a chip" are taking over the world...or why individual computers themselves are "too fast" and much of modern infrastructure is run on virtual cloud CPUs...

(speaking as someone who added a miata as a second car to their 228i w/ dinan stage I/shockware...)
There's different ways of looking at things. While there are many cars even newer cars with less HP, that will eventually make it to the speed limit and many can go past, having a car with lower HP and or TQ doesn't make a car safer. Have you experienced trying to merge on or off a freeway or change lane while in heavy traffic or need the power to accelerate to avoid an object in a car with lower or average performance? Or how about the cars that slows everyone down because they can barely drive up hills on the street or freeway? Situations like that can be more dangerous for the driver and other nearby drivers.

While I'm no computer expert I have sold computers for a job in the past, and if you want to compare the two, I'd argue that many people who buy a slower model end up upgrading sooner than later. No one knows what will change in the future, for computers more intensive software will likely to continue. With driving, speed limits change up or down. I knew people who had cars that were old and slow and I thought I was going to die on the freeway.
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      05-23-2020, 12:00 AM   #129
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I'm super late to the party and others have probably said it more eloquently than me, but I think even my lowly B46-powered car is fast enough that I wouldn't dare try to drive it anywhere near the limit on a public road because it would be unsafe or risk arrest.

And I'd contrast that against my buddy's BRZ that handles well and is fun to drive, but is so damn slow in a straight line that he gets dusted at stoplights by road-raging soccer moms in V6-powered minivans.

That said, when the BMW is off the public roads in a motorsport setting, its in a weird spot where its too heavy to be a momentum car, and not fast enough to keep up with the power cars. So I guess it really depends on the context in which you're evaluating it. It straddles the line between being the slowest fast car or the fastest slow car.
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      05-23-2020, 10:15 AM   #130
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To disagree with the OP (I think) - the 'excess' power in the M235i/M240i isn't there for Yet More Power, it's just a by-product of the turbo, put there to give you diesel-like torque.

In my 330d Touring, the turbodiesel pretty much meant I only needed four gears: 1st/2nd to get going, 5th in town and 8th to cruise. The rest were redundant. And over 40mph, 8th would hack it in most circumstances.

Conventionally-aspirated petrol engines by comparison become tedious as you constantly have to shift up/down and rev high. So add-on a turbo and you get much closer to the torque you're used to in a diesel.

But a side-effect is to give the engine far more raw power than you need. This is how I see it, not as a pointless excess but something I get 'for free', and can discard or utilise as I see fit.
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      05-23-2020, 03:33 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by msej449 View Post
To disagree with the OP (I think) - the 'excess' power in the M235i/M240i isn't there for Yet More Power, it's just a by-product of the turbo, put there to give you diesel-like torque.

In my 330d Touring, the turbodiesel pretty much meant I only needed four gears: 1st/2nd to get going, 5th in town and 8th to cruise. The rest were redundant. And over 40mph, 8th would hack it in most circumstances.

Conventionally-aspirated petrol engines by comparison become tedious as you constantly have to shift up/down and rev high. So add-on a turbo and you get much closer to the torque you're used to in a diesel.

But a side-effect is to give the engine far more raw power than you need. This is how I see it, not as a pointless excess but something I get 'for free', and can discard or utilise as I see fit.
OP has a 230i (4 cylinder turbo) not a m235/240 (6 cylinder turbo)
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      05-24-2020, 05:32 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by tayone415 View Post
OP has a 230i (4 cylinder turbo) not a m235/240 (6 cylinder turbo)
But the observation still applies, surely? I was only quoting the 6-cyl turbodiesel because I actually owned one.

I also previously owned an Audi A3 4-Cyl turbodiesel 2.0L and would say the same thing: that the 'unnecessary' extra power in a 4-cyl petrol turbo is a by-product of giving it the torque of the equivalent diesel engine. And that you can opt to use it for outright acceleration or not, at your discretion. But what you welcome is the torque it gives, without which, you might find the non-turbo petrol engine unsatisfactory.
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