[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by cbbplanet

When you say HiFi stereo.. is that just the base stereo BMW comes with? When I ordered my car, I didn't want to upgrade to just HK speakers and I don't see any option to upgrade to the logic7 or better audio system so I didn't change my audio options.

Now, after hearing the car for myself, I have to change the speakers. According to what you said, best way is to upgrade amp or add DSP as well. However, I can also only upgrade speakers and use the bass/treble within the car to compensate for the mismatch?

Base = HiFi
Upgrade = Harmon Kardon/Top HiFi

Using treble to compensate may be enough to smooth out the tweeters on your new speakers. I still think that, knowing you want more bass out of the system, an amp may be in your future. A set of new subs will sound better than the stock subs, but the stock amp only gives you so much power. To increase volume you need power. You could look at a set of Earthquake 2ohm subs which are supposed to drop right into the stock sub locations and they even have a harness that fits the stock wiring. But I think the stock amp is 240w and it's likely that's a peak wattage rating and not the continuous power rating. That means you're giving little power to that sub - maybe 50w max, so 20w RMS? That's a tiny amount of power for a driver trying to produce sub level frequencies.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by cbbplanet

When you say HiFi stereo.. is that just the base stereo BMW comes with? When I ordered my car, I didn't want to upgrade to just HK speakers and I don't see any option to upgrade to the logic7 or better audio system so I didn't change my audio options.

Now, after hearing the car for myself, I have to change the speakers. According to what you said, best way is to upgrade amp or add DSP as well. However, I can also only upgrade speakers and use the bass/treble within the car to compensate for the mismatch?

Since I had this thread up I'll answer....

The HiFi stereo is the base system. The upgraded system is the HK system ( OEM from Harmon Kardon). The best upgrade for the base system is to replace the amp, the speakers and add a DSP unit to tune the system to the car. The next best is to upgrade either the speakers or the amp (which has some DSP built in). My personal preference is to upgrade the speakers as the factory speakers are about as low performing a 4 inch that you will ever see. If you leave the speakers and upgrade the amp you will have to add a separate DSP unit. A decent amp and DSP will run you between $8oo and $1,500 depending on the level of performance you are seeking. All of this said you may get away with upgrading the door and back deck speakers for say $400 and use the base and treble control to minimise the differences in speaker efficiency between the remaining center channel/sub combo and the new speakers. I have done that and like the result. Knowing that I can replace the amp also is inviting as I have some extra amps kicking around that I can now use.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by gtaphile

Since I had this thread up I'll answer....

The HiFi stereo is the base system. The upgraded system is the HK system ( OEM from Harmon Kardon). The best upgrade for the base system is to replace the amp, the speakers and add a DSP unit to tune the system to the car. The next best is to upgrade either the speakers or the amp (which has some DSP built in). My personal preference is to upgrade the speakers as the factory speakers are about as low performing a 4 inch that you will ever see. If you leave the speakers and upgrade the amp you will have to add a separate DSP unit. A decent amp and DSP will run you between $8oo and $1,500 depending on the level of performance you are seeking. All of this said you may get away with upgrading the door and back deck speakers for say $400 and use the base and treble control to minimise the differences in speaker efficiency between the remaining center channel/sub combo and the new speakers. I have done that and like the result. Knowing that I can replace the amp also is inviting as I have some extra amps kicking around that I can now use.

This is what I'm thinking of getting. 8 channel amp/dsp: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-s83u9dR...h-PP82DSP.html

Someone on Bfest said they went this route with the stock speakers and says he likes it so far. We're still in contact though as he said there may be an issue with a turn-on pop that he's working out with Helix support. I'm waiting for that to get sorted out.

[cbbplanet]

thanks guys i think i've decided which route I am going to go first and then I'll invest in the amp later. I'll let hyperzulu be the guinea pig haha

[Gizzy's_M235i]

ok, posting this question again bc it got buried. Can anyone help. I'm basically looking for the best pair of speakers I can get for under $50. Also, should I be looking at speakers that have an attached tweeter for the rear. I have Focals with attached tweeters in the front. I do not plan to upgrade the amp.

What's up everybody. I'm just entering the world of stereo upgrades, pretty much learning by reading these forums. I picked up a pair of FOCAL Access 100AC that I am now thinking I will put in the doors. I am looking for a cheaper (under $50) set of speakers to put in the rear deck. Ive been looking around on EBAY and found these kickers and these Audiobahn and these Pioneers. I am assuming something with a built in tweeter is better since I dont plan on replacing the amp. Thanks in advance for your help.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Gizzy's_M235i

ok, posting this question again bc it got buried. Can anyone help. I'm basically looking for the best pair of speakers I can get for under $50. Also, should I be looking at speakers that have an attached tweeter for the rear. I have Focals with attached tweeters in the front. I do not plan to upgrade the amp.

What's up everybody. I'm just entering the world of stereo upgrades, pretty much learning by reading these forums. I picked up a pair of FOCAL Access 100AC that I am now thinking I will put in the doors. I am looking for a cheaper (under $50) set of speakers to put in the rear deck. Ive been looking around on EBAY and found these kickers and these Audiobahn and these Pioneers. I am assuming something with a built in tweeter is better since I dont plan on replacing the amp. Thanks in advance for your help.

I still don't think it's worth bothering with to replace the rears. I left mine on only so that I could hear my PDC gongs when reversing. Anyway, you definitely want coax speakers. Nothing to do with amp vs no amp. No sense in dealing with accommodating a crossover, which you would have to do if you went with components instead. It's just a pain in the ass.

Of those three speakers, I suppose I would probably go with the Kickers. No idea about Audiobahn and I absolutely hate those tweeter+micro tweeter 3way combos. So yeah, the Kickers... but only if you forced me by putting a gun to my dog's head. Otherwise I'd just leave the rears alone.

[Gizzy's_M235i]

Really appreciate the feedback. I will install the Focals in the front and see what I'm gonna do from there.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by Gizzy's_M235i

Really appreciate the feedback. I will install the Focals in the front and see what I'm gonna do from there.

The Focals are cheap enough that you should do the backs also. I used the Focal 100s in the doors and back.

[MrBallooKnot]

UPDATE

I'm just back from my install (front/door speakers). The installers at Car Toys said that they could not fit the Focal ICS 100s without bowing out the door panel a bit. I went with the JL Audio C2-400Xs. I think I liked the Focal sound in the studio a bit better but not enough for a hassle.

As for the post-install sound... I would say it's a 50% improvement over the base speakers. They did just one side first so I could hear the different and it was substantial. One side (OEM) sounded like it was covered by a bucket while the new side sounded fresh and bright. Definitely worth the upgrade (about $300 w/ labor).

One side effect, I think the "active sound" got disconnected or is greatly diminished with the new speakers. I think I'm ok with that as I can now enjoy better sound and a quieter ride in "sport" mode. I'm surprised how loud the active sound really was. I'll try it for a few days before I decide if I want it turned back on.

I might try to disconnect the center speaker in the dash just to see how that sounds. I've read it's easy to do and some think it's an improvement.

[hoppy6698]

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

I'm just back from my install (front/door speakers). The installers at Car Toys said that they could not fit the Focal ICS 100s without bowing out the door panel a bit. I went with the JL Audio C2-400Xs. I think I liked the Focal sound in the studio a bit better but not enough for a hassle.

Which Car Toys? DanG will tell you that the Bellevue guys in Seattle didn't have to fiddle with the door (bow it) to fit the speakers. Neither did NW Audio who put in my JBLs. Something smells amateur here.

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

One side effect, I think the "active sound" got disconnected or is greatly diminished with the new speakers. I think I'm ok with that as I can now enjoy better sound and a quieter ride in "sport" mode. I'm surprised how loud the active sound really was. I'll try it for a few days before I decide if I want it turned back on.

The install wouldn't have changed the radio output to the speakers. However, having the separate tweeters now brings up other notes that may be stepping over the active sound. I coded out my active sound after the speaker upgrade and it made a difference in engine note.

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

I might try to disconnect the center speaker in the dash just to see how that sounds. I've read it's easy to do and some think it's an improvement.

Highly recommend disconnecting or pulling it out. Since the center channel is not a true separate channel from the HU, it combines left/right out to simulate a channel. It muddies sounds clarity. I miss the 5.1 sound in my Audi, but after removing the center, the directional accuracy (knowing which speaker is playing) is much improved.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by hoppy6698

Highly recommend disconnecting or pulling it out. Since the center channel is not a true separate channel from the HU, it combines left/right out to simulate a channel. It muddies sounds clarity. I miss the 5.1 sound in my Audi, but after removing the center, the directional accuracy (knowing which speaker is playing) is much improved.

That isn't how logic7 works. It determines the signals being provided to both left and right channels and filters anything which is not being played across both. A conga being played full pan left will not play, but a singer's voice dead center will. It is supposed to provide a ghost channel, but when we switch from 2ohm to 4ohm speakers, the center channel overpowers instead of compliments the rest of the sound stage. This imbalance is probably why it sounds bad on most systems.

[AlexGT]

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

UPDATE

I'm just back from my install (front/door speakers). The installers at Car Toys said that they could not fit the Focal ICS 100s without bowing out the door panel a bit. I went with the JL Audio C2-400Xs. I think I liked the Focal sound in the studio a bit better but not enough for a hassle.

As for the post-install sound... I would say it's a 50% improvement over the base speakers. They did just one side first so I could hear the different and it was substantial. One side (OEM) sounded like it was covered by a bucket while the new side sounded fresh and bright. Definitely worth the upgrade (about $300 w/ labor).

One side effect, I think the "active sound" got disconnected or is greatly diminished with the new speakers. I think I'm ok with that as I can now enjoy better sound and a quieter ride in "sport" mode. I'm surprised how loud the active sound really was. I'll try it for a few days before I decide if I want it turned back on.

I might try to disconnect the center speaker in the dash just to see how that sounds. I've read it's easy to do and some think it's an improvement.

MrBallooKnot , thanks for sharing the optional speakers you decided on. Could you please elaborate a little bit about comparing the JL's with the Focal? Is it a big difference between them?

I found the JL AUDIO® C2-400x (not Xs) is it the same?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-JL-AUDIO...item2eda7b04c0

Thank you for your response.

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

It is supposed to provide a ghost channel, but when we switch from 2ohm to 4ohm speakers, the center channel overpowers instead of compliments the rest of the sound stage. This imbalance is probably why it sounds bad on most systems.

The issue I've found with center speaker with my setup was not only overpowering sound specially in the midrange.
The main issue for me was the midrange glare I heard due to low quality of the midrange and likely due to large portion of sound reflecting from windshield.
I've gone back a forward connecting the center channel and I still much prefer without it.
I also tweak balance control a little to right to get a more center image.
This will reduce total SPL since the right side will clip or reach saturation point earlier.
I wanted to experiment replacing center channel speaker but I'm unable to find one that fits there.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Like I said. Depends on what you're looking for. I think the stock speakers are weak, but also think a lot of people will benefit most from an amp upgrade.

You can replace the stock amp without interfering with active sound, the artificial engine noise. The base stereo is different from the Harmon kardon which uses a digital bus for its signal. Furthermore active sound can be defeated through Idrive (coding).

You can most definitely just replace the amp if you want. This system is not as heavily integrated as you are thinking. If you want a louder system, an amp is where you want to go.

I am moving forward with replacing the center channel and buying a DSP and amp(s).

Does the 4 inch focal (IC100) fit in the center spot?

Thanks

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Like I said. Depends on what you're looking for. I think the stock speakers are weak, but also think a lot of people will benefit most from an amp upgrade.

You can replace the stock amp without interfering with active sound, the artificial engine noise. The base stereo is different from the Harmon kardon which uses a digital bus for its signal. Furthermore active sound can be defeated through Idrive (coding).

You can most definitely just replace the amp if you want. This system is not as heavily integrated as you are thinking. If you want a louder system, an amp is where you want to go.

I am now moving forward with replacing the center channel...does a Focal 4 inch IC 100 fit with only a spacer adjustment?

thanks

[Gizzy's_M235i]

Ok, I just finished installing the driver's side front speaker, Focal AC 100. When I put the volume up and switch the output between left and right (front speakers only), the stock speaker is louder but more muddled. The Focal is lower but def with a crisper sound. Have others found the stock speakers to be louder as well? I ask because this is my first audio upgrade and I now im worried I may have wired it incorrectly. Thanks. BTW, I'm going to post a DIY on removing the door panel. That screw behind the door latch threw me off.

[MrBallooKnot]

Originally Posted by AlexGT

MrBallooKnot , thanks for sharing the optional speakers you decided on. Could you please elaborate a little bit about comparing the JL's with the Focal? Is it a big difference between them?

I found the JL AUDIO® C2-400x (not Xs) is it the same?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-JL-AUDIO...item2eda7b04c0

Thank you for your response.

Those are the same as I installed. The "C2400Xs" was simply the plural of "C2400X". :-)

I found the Focals to be a more rounded sound in the studio whereas the JLs were more pronounced in the high and low ranges. That was in the studio though...once in the car, things generally change. I'm happy with them.

[Gizzy's_M235i]

Originally Posted by MrBallooKnot

Those are the same as I installed. The "C2400Xs" was simply the plural of "C2400X". :-)

I found the Focals to be a more rounded sound in the studio whereas the JLs were more pronounced in the high and low ranges. That was in the studio though...once in the car, things generally change. I'm happy with them.

Mrballooknot did you notice if the stock speaker was louder than your JL when they did the side by side comparison for you? I presently have a Focal in the left front and the stock speaker in the right front and the stock is louder. the Focal is slightly lower and definitely has a sharper better sound. I'm worried I may have wired the speakers wrong.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Gizzy's_M235i

Ok, I just finished installing the driver's side front speaker, Focal AC 100. When I put the volume up and switch the output between left and right (front speakers only), the stock speaker is louder but more muddled. The Focal is lower but def with a crisper sound. Have others found the stock speakers to be louder as well? I ask because this is my first audio upgrade and I now im worried I may have wired it incorrectly. Thanks. BTW, I'm going to post a DIY on removing the door panel. That screw behind the door latch threw me off.

As I've mentioned before (and full disclosure, I haven't tested on a multi-meter yet) I believe the stock speakers are all 2ohm. Most retail speakers are 4ohm. That means there is higher resistance on a retail speaker, which reduces power and thus volume. Not all amps work like this, but most do.

You do want to make sure your speakers are properly wired for polarity. Again, I need to get in there with a multimeter and note the color so I know for sure which wire is positive and which is negative. I just relied on my ear to listen for any reduction in volume at lower frequencies. When you send a signal from two speakers which are wired up inversely (one has the + lead going to the + terminal and the other has the + lead going to the - terminal), their sound waves will start to cancel each other out a bit.

I wish I would have had more time to document my door install. It would have saved you some heart ache.

[Gizzy's_M235i]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

As I've mentioned before (and full disclosure, I haven't tested on a multi-meter yet) I believe the stock speakers are all 2ohm. Most retail speakers are 4ohm. That means there is higher resistance on a retail speaker, which reduces power and thus volume. Not all amps work like this, but most do.

You do want to make sure your speakers are properly wired for polarity. Again, I need to get in there with a multimeter and note the color so I know for sure which wire is positive and which is negative. I just relied on my ear to listen for any reduction in volume at lower frequencies. When you send a signal from two speakers which are wired up inversely (one has the + lead going to the + terminal and the other has the + lead going to the - terminal), their sound waves will start to cancel each other out a bit.

I wish I would have had more time to document my door install. It would have saved you some heart ache.

Thanks for your response hyperzulu. I believe the Focal speaker is wired correctly. it was the difference in volume that was throwing me off, but your response explains it. Hopefully I can finish off the other side tomorrow.

[MrBallooKnot]

Originally Posted by Gizzy's_M235i

Mrballooknot did you notice if the stock speaker was louder than your JL when they did the side by side comparison for you? I presently have a Focal in the left front and the stock speaker in the right front and the stock is louder. the Focal is slightly lower and definitely has a sharper better sound. I'm worried I may have wired the speakers wrong.

First, I know nothing about wiring so I can't help you there. My gauge for a problem begins and ends with, "smoke is a bad sign".

That said, I found the stock speaker "more offensive" in that is seemed so one-dimensional that maybe it could be seen as louder. The new speaker was "less offensive" in that the sound seemed distributed in a more pleasing way. Kind of like if someone was talking to you through a cardboard tube vs. open air.

I couldn't tell you on a decibel level if they were different.

Someone once told me, "Good speakers sound good at any volume". Shitty whiskey is "loud". Good whiskey is subtle but complex. Cheers!

[gtaphile]

I am still trying to confirm if a 4 inch speaker, with spacer if needed, will fit in the center channel slot for M235i


Thanks gents.