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      02-21-2020, 01:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
So... you are listing a bunch of problems, yet, they are reliable because "it's a luxury sports car thing".
Yes, Yes I am and a people are dumb thing.
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      02-21-2020, 01:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
No need. Beside many BMW tech and managers friends (including in almost all luxury brands field), I have my own personal experience. Every car I own has its own binder with what was done since day one (I only buy new). I can provide the whole history of every vehicle I bought. Maybe one day your engine will blow too at 80,015 km and 8 years (so no warranty left -regardless I also bought $4000 extra warranty for 6 years or 120.000 km-) and need to buy one new engine and spend $27,000 to avoid throwing the car in the garbage.

I am one of the crazy 1% that are insane when it comes to maintenance. I am that guy that is replacing under vehicle shields and parts just because they have a scratch or buy new wheels for a little chip. I am the guy who puts only the best gasoline, has the oil changed at 5000 km, replaces all the filters, sparkplugs every spring regardless of low mileage (10-12.000km/year), replace tires at every 75%, etc., and has the car repaired by the same shop foreman tech only as I am extremely demanding and want every car to be looked after only by the same tech as he knows me and what he did on the vehicle.

Please find that quality word that defines a blown overly maintained engine.

And as a note:
BMW did nothing and refused to do something until I was forced to start a judicial process. Only after that battle I received what should have been -to begin with- a quiet, smooth and considerate process. Try my experience and come back with your thoughts and pompous words.
People leave a brand for much less problems.. So, I must be a fan...
I think you have simply proven my point about the lack of robustness in BMW's processes. I don't deny your experience or your emotions about it. But, the existence of cars such as yours and those such as ours and others who have had great outcomes indicates an excessive range of variation for a modern manufacturer. That range has two ends, one far opposite from the one you experienced. Part of what Asian brands historically have done better than the German industry is achieve less variance from the design intent. Thus, they have had better more consistent quality, although owner-based large-sample data from both JDPower and Consumer Reports reveals significant improvement for BMW to now be among the various Asian brands overall.

None of remaining variation, resulting in some cars with problems, undermines the reports of those who do have well-performing BMWAG products that their cars are providing excellent quality.
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      02-21-2020, 02:31 PM   #47
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None of remaining variation, resulting in some cars with problems, undermines the reports of those who do have well-performing BMWAG products that their cars are providing excellent quality.
I was resuming to my own experience only. However, you might find that the whole story will undermine tremendously your point, once you will get a proper insight of the problems. Talk to some very honest techs, managers and so on; many in the industry are moving from one brand to another, and they can provide a quite accurate inside information.
Just as a note, in my dealership the service top tech who repairs my Beemers drives Audi and the Service Manager only Mercedes... Makes me wonder...
BMW has some strong points and I will always defend those, as I will always defend the brand when deserves it.
reliability though is not that good to receive even an Excellence award. Forget about other fancy words.
I also owned different BMW's and all of them had different problems; more or less stressful.

What I can tell you though, is that I have owned many brands in my life including Citroen, Renault or even Fiat, which have never been seen as reliable, yet, none of them EVER let me down or in the middle of the road like BMW did. And they didn't even claimed to be super cars and cost 10% or 15% of a BMW. And they were very decent. Heck, thinking now, for the money they were great!
Only Alfa Romeo was the worse one with number of repairs, but even that one, the engine didn't die.
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      02-21-2020, 02:44 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Just as a note, in my dealership the service top tech who repairs my Beemers drives Audi and the Service Manager only Mercedes... Makes me wonder...
Wouldn't make me wonder about Audi...a brand I tried in 2016 and now would not accept for free (other than to resell it). The car was a collection of engineering failures....transmission, electronics, brakes, all in the first 18 months. Dealer could not repair much of that. Audi of America had no resolutions. Worse yet, technician reported he was told to alter a repair order to deny warranty on the brakes. We dumped a $60k+ A6 3.0T Prestige at a significant loss to be rid of it and Audi. Will never set foot again in any VW/Audi showroom, no matter how attractive. Beauty is only skin deep.

BTW, the stories from all the sources you mention regard the ones with problems. The ones like ours don't show up except for maintenance. I doubt the techs/service managers track the volume of total cars sold and trouble-free cars to do the math on percentages. The ones with problems show up and cause consternation for those involved. Those without are happily being driven elsewhere.
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      02-21-2020, 03:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Wouldn't make me wonder about Audi...a brand I tried in 2016 and now would not accept for free (other than to resell it). The car was a collection of engineering failures....transmission, electronics, brakes, all in the first 18 months. Dealer could not repair much of that. Audi of America had no resolutions. Worse yet, technician reported he was told to alter a repair order to deny warranty on the brakes. We dumped a $60k+ A6 3.0T Prestige at a significant loss to be rid of it and Audi. Will never set foot again in any VW/Audi showroom, no matter how attractive. Beauty is only skin deep.

BTW, the stories from all the sources you mention regard the ones with problems. The ones like ours don't show up except for maintenance. I doubt the techs/service managers track the volume of total cars sold and trouble-free cars to do the math on percentages. The ones with problems show up and cause consternation for those involved. Those without are happily being driven elsewhere.
Not going to argue with about some things as my whole family drives for decades Audi models and are quite trouble free. You will find many Audi owners with similar stories like yours that will never set foot in a BMW anymore. Goes both ways. At least your AUDI didn't had an exploded engine right? I wish I could dump that like you did, even for o Corolla, yet my vehicle was suddenly a scrap yard piece.
You support BMW but ignore other3 VW/Audi vehicles that are right in this list.

The thing is, cases like mine are not minor and that proves that BMW is GOOD and stays there. I hope you realize how lenient I am.
Once I started my process I found hundreds that literally scrapped their BMW due to engine failures. Very few endeavor in finding a used engine to place it in so they can get a buck back. Check BMW special unit for refurbished engines as they offered me a refurbished engine for $24,000!!!!
Do a search and see the class action lawsuits against BMW. If you don't have them, I can help you with that.

Bottom line, the fact that you are not aware it doesn't mean they don't exist. Go and ask, every BMW dealership has few units lingering around that they can't find the problem or are in endless state of repair.
BMW has its own flaws and let's leave it like that.
Otherwise it will have a different reputation and will be well known for their reliability.
Last time I checked, many other brands were ahead of the germans
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      02-21-2020, 04:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Not going to argue with about some things as my whole family drives for decades Audi models and are quite trouble free.
Exactly! Change the brand name and the point in the prior posts today remains the same.
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      02-21-2020, 04:18 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Exactly! Change the brand name and the point in the prior posts today remains the same.
Based on your experience, and others, Audi remains GOOD.
Based on my experience and others, BMW remains GOOD.

That's all I was saying all along.
But it was never excellent, not to mention stellar!

I would buy another BMW? Probably. I am a fan.
I will buy it for other different reasons, but reliability is not one of them.

Honestly, I buy them because I can afford. If I couldn't afford it and it will be a stretch for a dream, BMW will not be in my books. BMW is not that car that you can dream of to have because it will last you forever trouble free. Far from it.
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      02-21-2020, 04:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
well sorry to hear that but that's the risk we all take with cars out of warranty.

what year and model is your e90? stick?
2009, auto.

That's he risk we all take with cars out of warranty that are German, with BMW being the worst offender of German brands.

With my Lexus DD there's very little risk out of warranty. She's a 2012 with 55k miles and I've never spent a penny on unscheduled maintenance.

My point is that while BMWs have a lot of redeeming qualities making them superior to other cars, reliability is not one of them.
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      02-21-2020, 05:32 PM   #53
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I think the first three years most cars are fairly reliable. I rarely had any major repairs on a Lexus I've owned. My 2014 BMW 535d is at the dealer for a $4500 repair right now for only two items. A new ECU and diesel fluid metering valve. It's more than I've spent on all of the 100k in maintenance it seems like. No more 100k beemers
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      02-21-2020, 06:05 PM   #54
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Hey Tracus,
Which model BMW did you have all the trouble with?

Last edited by Busby; 02-21-2020 at 06:24 PM..
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      02-21-2020, 06:35 PM   #55
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Coming from BMW 2 wheel machines for good part of my life I find it interesting this same topic and comments could come from the forum pages for BMW motorcycles. The stories are told of the breakdowns had on a long trip and stranded on the Yukon hi way because of a BMW drive train problem that makes the brand unreliable. Funny part is most bikes on this same hi-way are BMWs and most wouldn’t make the trip without one. I loved all my BMWs and never had a single problem in all the years I rode them. Breakdown reports make the forums and are read much more than the I had no problems with my BMW reports. I drive a Toyota Tacoma and never have a thought of a breakdown. But I do think about it when I drive My m235i so it could be others misfortune can become your mind set.
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      02-21-2020, 06:37 PM   #56
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5 BMWs since 2000 that we typically keep for 7-8 years each (leased E90 was the exception). Driven hard enough to require replacement tyres at typically 25,000km intervals, usually replace suspension bushings and shocks at 100,000km as a maintenance item. Always do maintenance by the book (for example 30,000km for valve shimming in our Z4M), but no more than 15,000km between oil changes when they had intervals up to as high as 30,000km.

The only major component replaced was the Junction Box in the 135i, otherwise no mechanical components on any of the 5 failed, just some trim and seat wear and tear and 80,000km valve cleaning on the N54.
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      02-21-2020, 08:48 PM   #57
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Notwithstanding the personal anecdotes of forum members (unrepresentative of the general population), here is the 2020 US industry data for issues in the prior year of three-years-in-service vehicles, as reported by a large sample (~37,000) of vehicle owners. (Sorry the graphic is split...too long for my screen grab tool, but this is the continuous entire list).
Attached Images
  
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      02-22-2020, 05:59 AM   #58
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I started owning BMWs (335s and my current M3) and all have been very dependable. F80 now at 60k trouble free miles.
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      02-22-2020, 06:19 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
well sorry to hear that but that's the risk we all take with cars out of warranty.

what year and model is your e90? stick?
2009, auto.

That's he risk we all take with cars out of warranty that are German, with BMW being the worst offender of German brands.

With my Lexus DD there's very little risk out of warranty. She's a 2012 with 55k miles and I've never spent a penny on unscheduled maintenance.

My point is that while BMWs have a lot of redeeming qualities making them superior to other cars, reliability is not one of them.
It's funny as i still would trust a Honda or toyota over a German car, but my experience doesn't support that rationale. I think I was just scarred from the 90s when Japanese cars were miles more reliable than anything else. But more recently, going back 15 years that hasn't been my experience.

My Lexus RX 330 that I owned a few years back was great except the transmission was slipping like crazy as we hit 70k miles. Especially when cold. Finally got rid of it at 90k miles. That's too big of an item to overlook. My dad has a newer one with less miles and so far so good.

Subarus have been terrible. Leaking oil all over just as they get to 90k miles. A turbo 2.5 we had constantly needed a flush and that had less than 50k miles.

My Infinitis were better than average but I wouldn't say great (but I forgive them because I loved the original G35 6MT coupe I had - haha).

Owned a couple of old Hondas that were great (150k+ miles) but the new one has major electronics issues with radio/video functionality. Honda transmissions and brakes are also notoriously bad. Friend had to get rid of his newer MDX when the transmission blew at 90k miles (car was only 5 or 6 years old).

I definitely think the same old formulas don't work today as they did many years ago. At least for Japanese vs my BMW experience. I still wouldn't buy an American car for long term ownership.
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      02-22-2020, 07:34 AM   #60
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For long time ownership I don't think JD initial quality means much. Case in point the Volvo 850 my dad bought had some initial warranty failures but 23 years later my wife was given the car and does not want to give it up, it's so roomy and comfortable. It is very reliable now and zero leaks. The valve cover uses a special sealant and they never leak. It has amazing rust resistance, even the brake lines are copper nickel, which I've never seen on a Japanese car. I had my Integra blow a brake line on the highway, and my Prelude and Accord developed rust.
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      02-22-2020, 08:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
For long time ownership I don't think JD initial quality means much. Case in point the Volvo 850 my dad bought had some initial warranty failures but 23 years later my wife was given the car and does not want to give it up, it's so roomy and comfortable. It is very reliable now and zero leaks. The valve cover uses a special sealant and they never leak. It has amazing rust resistance, even the brake lines are copper nickel, which I've never seen on a Japanese car. I had my Integra blow a brake line on the highway, and my Prelude and Accord developed rust.
The above report is not the IQS. It’s the VDS after three years in service. I don't know of any study of 20+ years in service. Great story, though!

Last edited by Sportstick; 02-22-2020 at 08:34 AM..
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      02-22-2020, 09:22 AM   #62
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Well the F series and newer non-M BMWs drive more like Hondas rather than BMWs of old; so it makes sense their reliability is on par with their driving experience.
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      02-22-2020, 10:42 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
For long time ownership I don't think JD initial quality means much. Case in point the Volvo 850 my dad bought had some initial warranty failures but 23 years later my wife was given the car and does not want to give it up, it's so roomy and comfortable. It is very reliable now and zero leaks. The valve cover uses a special sealant and they never leak. It has amazing rust resistance, even the brake lines are copper nickel, which I've never seen on a Japanese car. I had my Integra blow a brake line on the highway, and my Prelude and Accord developed rust.
Older Volvos were built to run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Taken care of properly, they'd run indefinitely. It burned me up when the wife decided to let her 1998 manual V70 T5 go with only 243,000 miles on it.

By the time we bought a 2006 manual V70R, it had become clear that overall Volvo quality had slipped badly. There was a list of $2K repairs I kept reading about in the main forum for the car; some owners had every problem, with some of them occurring multiple times, and others had none of the problems. I decided to get rid of it with 24,000 miles on the clock.
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      02-22-2020, 11:02 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
well sorry to hear that but that's the risk we all take with cars out of warranty.

what year and model is your e90? stick?
2009, auto.

That's he risk we all take with cars out of warranty that are German, with BMW being the worst offender of German brands.

With my Lexus DD there's very little risk out of warranty. She's a 2012 with 55k miles and I've never spent a penny on unscheduled maintenance.

My point is that while BMWs have a lot of redeeming qualities making them superior to other cars, reliability is not one of them.
It's funny as i still would trust a Honda or toyota over a German car, but my experience doesn't support that rationale. I think I was just scarred from the 90s when Japanese cars were miles more reliable than anything else. But more recently, going back 15 years that hasn't been my experience.

My Lexus RX 330 that I owned a few years back was great except the transmission was slipping like crazy as we hit 70k miles. Especially when cold. Finally got rid of it at 90k miles. That's too big of an item to overlook. My dad has a newer one with less miles and so far so good.

Subarus have been terrible. Leaking oil all over just as they get to 90k miles. A turbo 2.5 we had constantly needed a flush and that had less than 50k miles.

My Infinitis were better than average but I wouldn't say great (but I forgive them because I loved the original G35 6MT coupe I had - haha).

Owned a couple of old Hondas that were great (150k+ miles) but the new one has major electronics issues with radio/video functionality. Honda transmissions and brakes are also notoriously bad. Friend had to get rid of his newer MDX when the transmission blew at 90k miles (car was only 5 or 6 years old).

I definitely think the same old formulas don't work today as they did many years ago. At least for Japanese vs my BMW experience. I still wouldn't buy an American car for long term ownership.
This has been my experience with Acuras. 2003 tls xmsn blew at 90k. The replacement was covered due to class action lawsuit.

2008 tls engine seized at 72k mi. Had cert preowned coverage and both Honda and dealer refused to repair. Lawyered up and Honda Motors covered the repair since all maint was done iaw the manual and had receipts. Major pain though to go through.

Brakes are compelete trash on all of them. Constantly warped. Finally talked to one knowledgable tech and he said they are all undersized due to cost cutting.

Had 2002 Infiniti I30 and that car had gremlins that they couldn't fix so sold it after 3yrs. Garbage car.

Several neighbors went from Audis, VW and Acuras to BMW and the cars+service are excellent so far. One of them had 2012 f30 328xi and put 80k mi not a single issue. The German cars last for decades and still look excellent if maintained properly. Yes there are lemons sometimes but that is the case with every brand.
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      02-22-2020, 01:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
For long time ownership I don't think JD initial quality means much. Case in point the Volvo 850 my dad bought had some initial warranty failures but 23 years later my wife was given the car and does not want to give it up, it's so roomy and comfortable. It is very reliable now and zero leaks. The valve cover uses a special sealant and they never leak. It has amazing rust resistance, even the brake lines are copper nickel, which I've never seen on a Japanese car. I had my Integra blow a brake line on the highway, and my Prelude and Accord developed rust.
Older Volvos were built to run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Taken care of properly, they'd run indefinitely. It burned me up when the wife decided to let her 1998 manual V70 T5 go with only 243,000 miles on it.

By the time we bought a 2006 manual V70R, it had become clear that overall Volvo quality had slipped badly. There was a list of $2K repairs I kept reading about in the main forum for the car; some owners had every problem, with some of them occurring multiple times, and others had none of the problems. I decided to get rid of it with 24,000 miles on the clock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
For long time ownership I don't think JD initial quality means much. Case in point the Volvo 850 my dad bought had some initial warranty failures but 23 years later my wife was given the car and does not want to give it up, it's so roomy and comfortable. It is very reliable now and zero leaks. The valve cover uses a special sealant and they never leak. It has amazing rust resistance, even the brake lines are copper nickel, which I've never seen on a Japanese car. I had my Integra blow a brake line on the highway, and my Prelude and Accord developed rust.
Older Volvos were built to run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Taken care of properly, they'd run indefinitely. It burned me up when the wife decided to let her 1998 manual V70 T5 go with only 243,000 miles on it.

By the time we bought a 2006 manual V70R, it had become clear that overall Volvo quality had slipped badly. There was a list of $2K repairs I kept reading about in the main forum for the car; some owners had every problem, with some of them occurring multiple times, and others had none of the problems. I decided to get rid of it with 24,000 miles on the clock.
V70 are nice especially manuals. I had an S70 T5, it was a great car and very fast. I only sold
It because I fell in love with the BMW steering feel. So far the corrosion protection on the body and exhaust are as good as the Volvo, it's just little things on my BMW that I've never had to touch on my Volvo: starter, gaskets, window regulator, cooling hoses. But the engine, trans and body are good so it's clear to me BMW business model is to have small components fail after warrantee to generate service/parts business.
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      02-22-2020, 02:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MassNerd View Post
And BMW as a brand finished 8th overall.

So makes you wonder where BMW gets the reputation that it's cars aren't reliable. Is it the expense of the repairs that eventually happen? Or is it BMWs are problem free while under warranty, but fall apart by 100K miles (This study follows 3 year old cars)?
Because overall, they generally haven't been. Have you not heard of all the N54 problems? The 7 Series with thousands of dollars in electrical problems that left people stranded on the side of the road? The spun crank hubs on the F80 M3/M4? E9x M3 rod bearing failures? Then there were the catastrophic N63 engine problems. And these are just problems from the last 12-13 years.

I could go on, but just because this platform has been well above average in reliability (aside from the N20 timing chain failures), doesn't mean BMW's are generally reliable as an entire brand.
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