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      08-18-2023, 08:13 AM   #1
rotors
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A newb doing his own tune

Hi all,
Got a '20 rwd 8spd auto f22. Has a gen1 B58 + a BM3 licence. Wanting to tune myself based on the BM3 stage2+ tune. First of all, I despise this "stage" concept and will never stand by OTS maps.

So, I'm doing my own map in the hopes of getting no ignition retard and some other sound/engine protection related stuff. It has gone decent so far I guess, I didn't blow it up at the first pull

The car is running catless, OPF-less, and on 100 RON fuel. Well, it says 100 on the pump but you may never know. For all intents and purposes, lets call it 98 RON/93 AKI. Ethanol is simply not a thing where I'm from, for this reason I've figured that upgrading to a b58tu pump is not needed.

My questions at this time are:
1) When not running a transmission tune, does it show on the logs as ignition retard as the means of reducing torque below the gearbox limit? This happens in between 2000 and 4000 rpm. I run the stock timing table at that area, and I get some 3 degrees of corection. I'm suspecting that it isn't knock, but retard to bring torque down as requested by TCU. Please correct me if that's wrong.

2) I must have missed some tables as I'm getting throttle plate closures mid-pull. See https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64de...0b43a008d370a6
Weird as I'm not running _that_ much more boost. About 15 psi throughout.

3) Despite running rich, I get ignition corrections(sometimes even up to redline). I've left the ignition table as-is in most areas, should I tone them down? It doesn't do that all the time, hence the doubt.

4) To my shame I've tried the ots map and got the same ignition retard that my tune gets, despite mine running less boost. Hence, question # 1
Log: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64de...90c665e0b7934f

5) What am I missing to further increase boost? It seems I'm running the stock max boost, only extended throughout the rev range and not just for the 2000-3000rpm range. This is a BM3 question more or less.

Thanks for any input from more experience tuners of BM3. I'm used to 20 yo Denso ECUs, so this Bosch modern one is foreign ground to me.
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      08-18-2023, 08:59 AM   #2
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Stage 2+ requires an upgraded HPFP so either add the TU pump or go down to stage 2

As far as Q1 goes: Which option did you check when flashing? Stock Auto / Manual / xHP?
Q2 could be related to the tune asking for more fuel than teh stock tump can deliver
Q3 and 4 Most tunes now show timing correctings when running the "correct fuel" not sure why the tunes do that

I would get some logs and post them into the 3 series forum thread
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      08-18-2023, 09:31 AM   #3
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I don't particularly care for bm3 ots stage 2 map as I want to customize other aspects in the tune not related to making power.

1)Didn't see anywhere any option to select anything trans-related.
2)Doubt it as afr is on point and so is hpfp pressure.
3 and 4) Part of the reason I want my own tune. Me, myself, accept no ign. retard at all. Even if it means leaving some torque on the table.
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      08-18-2023, 09:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
Stage 2+ requires an upgraded HPFP so either add the TU pump or go down to stage 2

As far as Q1 goes: Which option did you check when flashing? Stock Auto / Manual / xHP?
Q2 could be related to the tune asking for more fuel than teh stock tump can deliver
Q3 and 4 Most tunes now show timing correctings when running the "correct fuel" not sure why the tunes do that

I would get some logs and post them into the 3 series forum thread
Bootmod3 doesn't do the trans/trans tune select as they don't fuck with shit that effects the trans as they tell you to use a proper trans tune and don't try and bypass tq limiters by doing wonky shit.
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      08-18-2023, 04:00 PM   #5
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That was my understading too, that BM3 doesn't spoof torque shown to gearbox. At least not by default to all tunes. I've found some tables that point to how you'd do this, but I won't do that in a million years.
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      08-18-2023, 07:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotors View Post
That was my understading too, that BM3 doesn't spoof torque shown to gearbox. At least not by default to all tunes. I've found some tables that point to how you'd do this, but I won't do that in a million years.
Totally better off doing the trans tune for so many reasons..
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      08-19-2023, 10:54 AM   #7
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Have you ever tuned a turbo BMW before?
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      08-19-2023, 02:34 PM   #8
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No. I know how to tune, but I'm getting bogged down in bm3 and the poor table descriptions it has. Can't say I've seen a more complicated japanese ECU... from today or 20 years ago.
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      08-20-2023, 03:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotors View Post
No. I know how to tune, but I'm getting bogged down in bm3 and the poor table descriptions it has. Can't say I've seen a more complicated japanese ECU... from today or 20 years ago.
I would not recommend you do it yourself, but then again its your car, good luck and let us know how it goes
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      08-20-2023, 08:48 PM   #10
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Gotta do xHP, it's totally worth it.
Especially once you get into the power the hpfp maps can make with the right pump.

Look at it this way, there's so many thousands of cars running it, probably hundreds of tuner shops installing it. The feedback on the forums, the logs all shared online plus countless hours in the lab/tarmac.
FWIW, I put xHP on my car when it only had a dinantronics sport on it. Even then with a baby boost in power the xHP tune made it quicker.

I always find it healthier to prep the car for the power, before you unleash the power on the car.
Stage 2 + HPFP overboosted turbo full tilt 10 bar whatever ain't gonna do shit if you can't get the power to the wheels...then you gotta think about tires...
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      08-21-2023, 02:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I would not recommend you do it yourself, but then again its your car, good luck and let us know how it goes
Thanks for the precaution. I've tuned engines that blow up if you look at them wrong, I'm not really afraid of what I'm doing. I know what to do, I don't know how/what is preventing me in the DME from doing so.

I've done xhp over the weekend and can't say I'm too worked up for it. That, or the DME isn't yet pushing power to the point xhp can do something to show it. Alas, one less shackle.

The issue I'm still facing is that the DME isn't targeting higher loads and/or boost levels as consequence. I've dried my eyes out looking in BM3 over all tables with "torque" or "load" in it and maxed out all I could find.

I've followed the tutorial written by a guy on fb who allegedly did the OTS maps in BM3, still ditto.

My ROM is R1C9J8I2B if it makes any difference.

ATM I'm standing here: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64e2...729bf8e122e9d9
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File Type: pdf Bootmod3 Tuning guide MG1 5th January 2023 (1).pdf (3.43 MB, 201 views)
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      08-25-2023, 09:48 AM   #12
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One of the tables needed to upscale boost the load to torque table. You'll need to adjust the load axis to slightly higher in order to target more boost. If you're stock turbo the original Compressor table will suffice. Some small adjustments may be needed.

As far as timing and fueling, I wouldn't recommend using the oem tables since timing is a bit aggressive for higher stock turbo boost levels and fueling being too rich. BMW implemented a richer condition for fueling as a cooling property but isn't efficient from me personal experience. I myself target 12.1 at 12 degree of timing at 17.5lbs of boost and have had success. Slight timing correction is okay as long as it doesn't go above -3 and is consistent. BMW dme's target Lambda so it's exceptionally easier to tune in fueling. Remember you can run a much leaner condition then PI since DI is spraying directly into the cylinder vs going through the intake ports.

Again, this is my personal experience and always recommend doing trail and error but being smart about it. I don't consider myself an expert in tuning but I do have 7 years of tuning experience. Two of those being BMWs.
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      08-26-2023, 03:16 AM   #13
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I've had some help from the BM3 team itself about this. The table that I lacked was called Load Limitation (Injection) %. In stock fashion this is a 2d table that sits constant at 145%. It didn't struck me as odd because the car under stock tune goes higher than 145 so I left it as is. I assumed it was simply not used.

Turns out, it was used! Assumably in conjunction with Maximum Relative Filling Deviation % which calculates a % of error up 145 + 12% (at 4000rpm) and 145+0%(at 6500 rpm), thus capping max load at these values.

After fixing that, all went much smoother. Obviously, many more tables were adjusted, but this was my root cause of the DME just not wanting to target more load.

About ig timing: yes, I've seen that the stock tune is agressive in higher load/low rpm areas, so I've toned that down. I desire not to have any ignition retard, anywhere. I know this will cost me a bit of spool rpm's and torque, but that's fine since from what i've seen so far, IG. retard only happens outside the powerband.
About fueling: I usually tune starting rich(12 AFR), then dial in boost/load, then dial in timing. ATM I'm looking for a TU HPFP

I'm very glad to have started doing this, as I can make a tune that suits my needs and who knows, maybe next year a larger turbo is at hand.

Last edited by rotors; 08-28-2023 at 07:02 AM..
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      09-04-2023, 03:15 PM   #14
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Here's what I got (blue/red) vs bm3 stg2+ ots (green/yellow). 100 RON E10(straight out of the pump), catless DP+TU HPFP.

These are figures at the wheels, computed by RPM ramp-up rate while knowing the car weight, aerodynamic drag/area(guessed more or less), gear ratio, rear end ratio + 4th gear pull on a straight stretch of road. The OTS one looks a bit worse because IATs were awful on that day. I assume they would be neck and neck otherwise.

The takeaway here is no ignition retard and lots of other personal settings I wanted at all costs(exhaust flap closed, much cooler coolant targets, limiters for high IAT/knock etc etc etc). 10/10 would do again.

When I'm done with it I may do a write-up on how to use BM3 at a very basic level, at least to help get rookies off the ground.
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      09-29-2023, 08:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotors View Post
Here's what I got (blue/red) vs bm3 stg2+ ots (green/yellow). 100 RON E10(straight out of the pump), catless DP+TU HPFP.

These are figures at the wheels, computed by RPM ramp-up rate while knowing the car weight, aerodynamic drag/area(guessed more or less), gear ratio, rear end ratio + 4th gear pull on a straight stretch of road. The OTS one looks a bit worse because IATs were awful on that day. I assume they would be neck and neck otherwise.

The takeaway here is no ignition retard and lots of other personal settings I wanted at all costs(exhaust flap closed, much cooler coolant targets, limiters for high IAT/knock etc etc etc). 10/10 would do again.

When I'm done with it I may do a write-up on how to use BM3 at a very basic level, at least to help get rookies off the ground.
Be mindful that with Direct Injection you can run B58s more lean then typical PI cars. Running too rich can actually cause timing corrections. Targeting 12 AFRs is quite rich in my opinion for these engines. Also remember that the DME reads in Lambda. So 12 would be roughly 0.815 in Lambda.

Also when posting logs, utilize Datazap as it's much easier to read then traditional dyno maps.

I currently own two B58s. DP on the wife's car (all stock aside from DP) and I currently have it hitting 20psi and taper to 17psi targeting 12.4 at 10*. Zero corrections and knock. I could lean the mix a bit more but it's her daily so no need.

My set up is M240i on DAW v2.5 Stage 2 HPFP and DP with MHD's ECA running full flex. Flex is set to run up to e60 but normally I stay around e45 to e50. 29psi e45> 14.5* 12.7 23PSI 93 9* 12.6. Minimal Timing Corrections on E (occasional TC at -3 on CYL 1 and 5 but goes away right away). 93 I've noticed I'll get slightly more TC across cylinders but no more then -3 and will disappear during the pull. May turn down timing slightly.

Just as a reference.
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      04-18-2024, 10:04 AM   #16
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So, after growing some gray hairs from this ECU, which from now on shall be the last "modern" stuff I ever touch again, I feel indebted to this forum to share some tips about what I've done.

Here's a dump of my personal notepad about how to tune a B58, course 101 for dummies. Note that my usecase is gas pump, catless, opf-less, B58TU HPFP, and some personal taste here and there.

my target boost = 1.3 bar, 18.85 psi
desired torque table = Maximum torque limit [nm]
load limiter vs rpm = Maximum Relative Filling Characteristic (with and without Spool)

high iat/ect ign timing limiters: ignition correction full load * ignition timing correction (factor-full load)
depending on iat and ect, the maximum ammount of timing that can be subtracted from the base table is computed as product of the 2 tables
this is an important limiter in the summer when IATs sit at 50+deg C; 4-5-6 degs. of timing are subtracted regularly but this is not knock related



interesting tables: compressor map with required compressor/turbine output kw (how much kw of power does the turbine need to deliver, in order for the compressor to flow y kg/h of air at X p.r)
wastegate position feed forward ( x axis = coefficient between flow that goes out of wastegate and flow that passes turbine;
distribution factor = % of exhaust flow that goes through turbine
low distribution factor = most of the flow goes out the wgt
high distribution factor = most of the flow goes out the turbine
y axis = compressor flow
z axis = wgt position as a base(then it gets PID'ed); if overboost = decrease Z value, if underboost = increase Z value
lambda target superknock = target lambda when ecu detects preignition or severe knock
pressure ratio limitation = (reduces p/r at redline + high iat + high flow(set to 3 across the table)

power setting table: maximum relative filling characteristic % = limits load[limit] vs rpms
maximum torque limit = requested torque vs rpm = base table to set how fast the car goes. lulz.


changed tables under:
boost
boost control
factor for p and d share == 2 (last cell, at maf kg/h from 1200 to 1500
---------------needs PID tuning to get to higher boost in higher rpm
boost target
boost ceiling dynamic hpa from 2000 to 2500
boost set limit last cell from 3 to 3.5(top row, last cell from 1051kg/h to 1700kg/h)
filter constant last cell from 0.02 to 0.1(top row, last cell, from 1120kg/h to 1700kh/h)
pressure loss
pressure loss of exhaust hpa == toned down a lot (bcuz no cat)
pressure ratio
maximum replacement pressure hpa from 2000 to 2500
turbine
boost setpoint limit set to 3.1 from 3
compressor map with required compr/turbine output
under 800kg/h scaled down 15%(because overboost at this point is very frequent)
last 2 rows scaled up 5%
catalyst
catalyst heating
activation
maximum distance from 250 to 0
maximum EGT from 900 to 0
maximum vehicle speed from 90 to 0
maximum engine temp from 327.670 to -40
vehicle speed threshold from 655340 to -40
operating mode
operating mode catheating set to 0
efficiency
activation catalyst diagnosis from 1 to 0
efficiency code bank 1 from 3 to 0
efficiency dtc bank 1 from 1056 to 0
o2 heater circuit diagnosis behind catalyst from 1 to 0
cooling
coolant target
operating mode control from 130 to 85
operating mode normal from 103 to 85
operating mode warmup max temp from 112 to 85
operating mode warmup max temp from 110 to 85
set coolant temp in eco mode from 110 to 85
intercooler pump
intercooler pump volume flow -> drastic changes
engine speed
idle -> to experiment later
limit
maximum rpm oil temp - drastic change
fuel
load limit
load limitation l stoich adaption from 176 to 200
load limitation injection from 145 to 225
scalar
fuel scalar = equivalent of VE table. STFT has to be 1 == no trim needed; positive stft = need fuel = increase in fuel scalar table

setpoint
duration of lambda enrichment suppression set to 0 everywhere
lambda component protection switch from 1 to 255 (to use tables target bank 1 and 2)
lambda target super knock *= 0.95 in areas where lambda is not 1
lambda target bank 1 == lambda target bank 2; enriched at wot and leaned out at cruise
lambda threshold for using fuel tables from 0.998 to 0.7 as instructed
lambda timer for using fuel tables from 1 to 0 as instructed
switch for enrichment suppression, from 0 to 255 as instructed
particulate filter
load limitation opf protection % from 110 to 250 %
ignition
correction
ignition correction full load (and partial load, stock they were identical)
smoothed out
ignition timing correction factor full load (and partial load, stock they were identical)
(rescaled entirely not to reduce timing if ect <100 and iat <50) and tapered off in other areas
setpoint
extended Y axis to 200, by eliminating first Y axis row for following maps:
base igniting timing, full load, partial load, cold and warm (4maps)
left stock all except for 200% load row, wich is taken from 180 and scaled down
ignition timing full load spool - reduced 2.5 degrees in between 1500-3000 @ 140-180 load
made base timing (full load warm + partial load warm) be equal past 160% load
torque reduction(lean afr)
last row, decrease timing - HC says not needed, reverted to stock
torque reduction factor(coolant temp) set to 0.5 for cold temps, and for overheating
load
reduction factors
target torque reduction factor load and rpm set to 1 all round
target torque reduction factor rpm set to 1 all round
target torque reduction factor temp. (has bullshit oil temp scale. re-axed oil temp axis)
(related map) minimum engine temp to activate the yellow warning lamp from 124 to 110
(related map) minimum engine temp to activate the red warning lamp from 128 to 113
Load Limitation (Injection) % from 145 to 250
setpoint
maximum relative filling characteristic from 185 -> 160 to 200 -> 180
maximum relative filling characteristic spool from 185 -> 160 to 200 -> 180
maf
flow quotient
mass flow quotient for maf sensor ceiling last row from 1.35 to 2
oil pump
oil pump pressure setpoint bump in oil pressure
particulate filter
bit coded type of particle filter from 3 to 0
load limitation opf protection set from 110->55 to 250 everywhere
maf power output from 1000 to 1150
particulate filter functionality from 3 to 0
pressure difference set to 0 everywhere
sound tuning
activation
burble activation from 1 to 0
lots of other shit done to minimise noise, including exhaust flap and burble disables
sport display
gauge scaling
changed all to 450hp/700nm
Torque:
gear
maximum permissible clutch torque set to 1000 everywhere
gradients
maximum torque prediction gradient set to 3276 as indicated in map help
intervention
maximum torque memory from 500 to 750
maximum engine speed to enable torque tables set to 10 as indicated
torque threshold from 550 to 1000 both tables
monitors
maximum engine power monitor from 100 to 500
maximum engine torque monitor from 350 to 1000
maximum power monitor kw from 250 to 1000
maximum torque monitor nm from 500 to 1000
time threshold exceeded acceleration ms from 500 to 5000
engine speed threshold moftrqact from 450 to 10000
engine speed threshold function monitoring from 800 to 10000
opf
torque imiter opf nm set to 1000 every cell
torque limiter opf 2 set to 1000 every cell
torque limiter switch opf cars 2 from 1 to 0
engine speed for max power from 4775 to 6500
full load boost limitation from 485 -> 291 to 600 -> 450
full load boost limitation 6mt from 485 -> 291 to 650
full load torque limitation nm from 500 -> 650
full load torque limitation 6mt nm from 500 -> 650
load specification at full load from 120 to 200
maximum allowed torque injection active from 600 to 750
maximum power output -> multiplied throughout by 1.3
maximum torque idle 500 to 750
maximum torque at clutch from 600 to 750
maximum torque at clutch engaged from 600 to 750
maximum torque for pi controller from 550 to 750
maximum torque limit from 500 ->333 to 650-> 450
relative filling limitation from 80->60 to 80 everywhere
torque k0 limit from 600 to 750
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      04-22-2024, 11:56 PM   #17
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Thanks for dropping this man. I found this thread after getting curious about the technicalities of tuning and this helps a lot
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      05-05-2024, 01:20 PM   #18
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Hey, since on tuning topic, anyone know which table or tables to defeat rf max 2 Lpfp capacity on gen2 b58 MHD and what to raise it to?
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      05-11-2024, 06:50 PM   #19
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Good information.

I'm also a dinosaur tuner from the "MAP Tuning" days of yester-year trying to figure out how to make BM3 do what I could do with other EMSs. Learning the intricacies of "Load Based Tuning" and with the principles of DI has been exciting, but slow.

Just as the OP stated, the table descriptions are terrible. They seem to be named in a complex manor intentionally to sound erudite or something... but, once you start really understanding how they influence each other, they start to make sense... well, a little.

If anyone has any other good resources on tuning with BM3 specifically, or where to find information, I know I would be greatly appreciative.

But yeah, so far, lots of great info buried in the threads... and I know I've said it before, but why does this board not have a dedicated Engine Management forum?!
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      05-11-2024, 09:05 PM   #20
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Yeah... Wish HP Tuners was compatible with these ECU's lol...
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