[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by BentZero

I like how this thread has basically become the sub-forum.

Sub forum of a sub forum. Where actual subs are a key topic of discussion. So sub sub sub forum if you will!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by jase2addict

I'm thinking about installing a amp/dsp. I would really like to get past this hk amp and hear what this car can do under the right conditions. I was looking at the mosconi one 60.8 dsp amp or the d2.80.6 DSP What would I need to make this work besides Technics amp harness? Can I get around using a MoBridge or bit ten? I've heard great things about mosconi and my bday is coming up. I'm in a place where I splurge a little on myself this year but at the same time don't want to throw money away. Please give me your thoughts if it is worth going this route.

Research on this subforum. There are several amp/dsp installs documented. Use my amp-install thread as a starting point -- it has posts from MASH65 regarding his adding a DSP to my original install design.

Also, this has been repeated so many times in other threads, the issue needs to pretty much die: 2 Series HK systems are not Logic7 systems controlled by a fiber-optic MOST interface. The 2 Series HK system is completely analog.

You're welcome.

[havinfun]

Quote:
I appreciate the assessment of the JL Audio C1-400x (as a downgrade to the recommended C2-400x). And the suggestions on coding out the ASD make sense (I was planning to do a resonator delete for the exhaust system anyway on my upcoming M240).

So I noted that a couple of owner comments mention choosing Morel Maximo Ultra 402 Coax speakers for the rear shelf. Based on price ($140/pair), they may be of equal or higher quality than the C2-400's but also have a higher sensitivity (87.5 dB) to better match the Etons in the front doors. They are 2 1/8" deep, however, and I don't know if there is a depth restriction in the rear shelf (the C2-400's are only 1 15/16" deep).

Any shortcomings/assessments of the Morel's compared to the C2-400's? Is the sensitivity matching worth paying more for the speakers? Would the "warm" sound from the Morel's not work well with the Eton's?

Viffermike:

Can you offer an opinion on this? I am trying to make a rear-shelf speaker selection but don't know how important higher sensitivity is between the JL Audio C2's (84.5 dB) and the Morel Maximo Ultra 402's (87.5 dB).

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by havinfun

Quote:
I appreciate the assessment of the JL Audio C1-400x (as a downgrade to the recommended C2-400x). And the suggestions on coding out the ASD make sense (I was planning to do a resonator delete for the exhaust system anyway on my upcoming M240).

So I noted that a couple of owner comments mention choosing Morel Maximo Ultra 402 Coax speakers for the rear shelf. Based on price ($140/pair), they may be of equal or higher quality than the C2-400's but also have a higher sensitivity (87.5 dB) to better match the Etons in the front doors. They are 2 1/8" deep, however, and I don't know if there is a depth restriction in the rear shelf (the C2-400's are only 1 15/16" deep).

Any shortcomings/assessments of the Morel's compared to the C2-400's? Is the sensitivity matching worth paying more for the speakers? Would the "warm" sound from the Morel's not work well with the Eton's?

Viffermike:

Can you offer an opinion on this? I am trying to make a rear-shelf speaker selection but don't know how important higher sensitivity is between the JL Audio C2's (84.5 dB) and the Morel Maximo Ultra 402's (87.5 dB).

The Morels will be a better choice overall.

Note that the sensitivity difference is 3dB between the two models. Relative Sound Pressure Level (SPL) -- known to most of us as volume -- doubles for every 3dB measured. That means that, with 1 watt feeding each speaker, the Morels will be twice as loud as the JL Audios at 1 meter away -- basically the distance between these speakers and your head in the 2 Series.

They still won't be as loud as the OEM speakers, but the difference is not great. My bet is you'll love 'em. Morels are great speakers.

As for depth: it's not a tremendous issue in the rear deck. There's at least 3.5 inches of clearance back there.

[havinfun]

Viffermike:

Thanks! Appreciate your insight.

[surayne]

Why not just use the Eton B100XN coaxial speakers for the rears? They would match the fronts perfectly and are meant to be drop-in replacements with no modifications needed.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by surayne

Why not just use the Eton B100XN coaxial speakers for the rears? They would match the fronts perfectly and are meant to be drop-in replacements with no modifications needed.

Go for it, considering where you are!

(Programming note: Etons are not available in the U.S. Those of us who have opted for them across the pond have ordered them from the EU, which takes time and some risk.)

[surayne]

Thanks. Very curious about the ASD changes in 2017 cars. I was going to import an ASD harness but may not bother if coding is sufficient. I've tried searching the forum but can't find further info on this, has anyone got a link or details?

[ryem3]

Originally Posted by jhs1210

Over the past week, I installed Arc Audio XDi 1100.5 amplifier with TechnicPnP harness in the stock location (ASD was coded out with Bimmercode app). Also changed out the front stage to Focal K2 Power 100KRS separates, and the rears to Focal 4" Performance 100AC coax, and left the woofers stock running in mono from the sub channel of the amplifier. The front and rear stages each get 150 watts per channel.

I did the install in stages, first changing out the amplifier early in the week. If you are going to do anything to your F22/F87, CHANGE OUT THE AMP! The stock speakers transformed with the new amp. The woofers truly came to life, as if they had been almost dormant with the wimpy stock amplifier. The tweeters were still very bright, but the punch from the extra watts helped open up the mids to a very respectable level. In fact, if I had not already bought the front and rear speakers, I would have been happy just leaving the system at this level of transformation.

I added the rear Focals next. I had to adjust the gain for the rears to make them come to life since they are much less efficient than the stock speakers. Once the gain was adjusted, they sound about the same or maybe a hair better than the stock ones. Really the only reason to have speakers back there is for the parking sensors and/or if you have people sitting in the back often.

Next came changing out the front stage. While the Focal K2 separates do have a bit more detail, I am hoping they open up after their break-in period. The highs are not as bright as the stock tweeter's highs, but they I would bet most people would say they are a bit on the bright side. I know the Morel's are supposed to be a bit warmer sound, so that may be an option for other folks. I went with them as I had previous experience with Focals many years ago in other cars.

I will report back once the speakers break in. I am not sure I am going to change out the under seat woofers. Right now the improvement in overall dynamics and sound should hold me over for a while. If I do add a subwoofer, I will go with Musicar NW's enclosure that fits perfectly in the trunk and looks OEM.

Again, if you do one thing to upgrade the sound in the car, swap out the amplifier (JL Audio seems like a very popular choice too). With all the wealth of information on this and many other threads, I think anyone that has done any kind of car audio in the past can do it themselves. With that said, if I had to do it again, I would have just bought the plug and play system from Musicar. The time savings of prep in getting the cables soldered, crossover connected and properly protected, custom amp rack made, not to mention the time it takes to do the system design, etc, makes the Musicar packages totally worth it in my book.

Didn't want to quote the whole post, but maybe it's best.
No one commented on what I thought to be the insanity of buying $700 4" 2 way speakers for this application! Even though Crutchfield does have them on sale for only $400! Seems like major overkill. However not many comments on the Focal PC 100s. At $280 a pair with 90 db sensitivity, these could be very good. I ran these in my Porsche with very good results. I think in a car application you need more high frequency energy to offset the road noise.
I'm also curious about the use of the 3.5mm audio input. Compared to the usb port, in a Porsche the audio was horrible. You are taking analog output to a poor input. At least the usb port takes a line level input, perhaps not digital, but at least pre portable amp. Using any iPod with uncompressed audio yields very pleasing results.

[ryem3]

Focal integration subs - ifbmw-sub v2 only $268 each, anybody tried them? Should be a plug and play upgrade.

[ryem3]

The Focal ifbmw-c speakers look like the pc-100s with 3 screw holes and a $200 higher price tag.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Didn't want to quote the whole post, but maybe it's best.
No one commented on what I thought to be the insanity of buying $700 4" 2 way speakers for this application! Even though Crutchfield does have them on sale for only $400! Seems like major overkill. However not many comments on the Focal PC 100s. At $280 a pair with 90 db sensitivity, these could be very good. I ran these in my Porsche with very good results. I think in a car application you need more high frequency energy to offset the road noise.
I'm also curious about the use of the 3.5mm audio input. Compared to the usb port, in a Porsche the audio was horrible. You are taking analog output to a poor input. At least the usb port takes a line level input, perhaps not digital, but at least pre portable amp. Using any iPod with uncompressed audio yields very pleasing results.

Actually, the K2 components (NOT 2-way; that term implies coaxials!) are a really smart choice if you're dead-set on Focal components because of the tweeters. They're not Focal's typical harsh inverted metal dome; the K2 tweeter is an aramid-fiber inverted dome. The difference is substantial. YMMV, but I will never run Focals with metal tweeters because I detest them so much. These, however, are sublime. They're worth the extra cost.

The biggest mistake the poster made with this install was mixing the aramid/kevlar drivers of the K2 set with the aluminum/fiberglass drivers of the AC 100s. They just don't play well together. The PC 100s, though a better speaker, wouldn't be a good match, either because it, too, uses metal for its tweeter (which, IIRC, is a partially loaded design).

A few posters have tried the Focal Integration BMW subs; the consensus is that they're great for what they are if you're OK with the relatively high cost -- they're basically the most expensive PnP underseat solution on the market.

As for your comments on the Aux-in/USB: I'm confused by them. USB isn't an analog input, so there's no "line level" that applies to it. Are you talking about plugging in an iPod to the Aux in jack next to the USB post, perhaps?

[ryem3]

Thanks, appreciate the response.
I know they are separates, not coaxials. Still an insane amount for a 4" speaker unless you are building a super high end system. The 2 series hardly seems worthy. Especially without decent bass drivers other than the subwoofers. This system seems really compromised unless one does a major custom job to add 8" speakers somehow.

The dedicated Focal ifbmw-c speakers look very nice, but seem to have identical specs to the PC100s. Not exactly a value proposition.

I had very good results with a predecessor to the PC100, maybe CVX 100 if I recall correctly. Also, they have directable tweeters, so they could be angled towards the listener from locations in the 2 like the rear shelf and down on the doors. Problem with the factory speakers is they are very glaring, without real highs. You need to turn up the treble to get reasonable highs out of them, but you don't get any real crisp highs. Of course, they can't be too "crisp" or they will simply be fatiguing.

Since we need to rely on the subs for not only deep bass, but mid bass, what are good recommendations on the value end? The Focals are over $500. Are cheaper alternatives worthwhile? Since "bass" is coming out of 4" speakers otherwise, the subs seem like a key item to focus on. Even the better 4" Focals only go down to 70 Hz. The PC100s are speced to only 90 Hz. Do these subs add punch? Are they crisp? Or are they just another muddy set of subwoofers that try to rattle things? I'm very leery of subs and greatly prefer a good solid bass driver. Really not an option here as mentioned.

Ah, on the inputs. I believe the USB IS an analog input. It COULD be a digital input if you read data from it like from a thumb drive. Then you rely on the DAC in the car system. I've found that plugging in an iPod into the USB port is taking line level analog output into the audio system. I think I would prefer the iPod DAC to the DAC in the car stereo. I don't know that much about the BMW system, so happily corrected here. In a Porsche, the aux jack was an incredibly poor input. Connecting any player (Fiio, whatever) resulted in MUCH poorer sound quality than using an iPod through the dedicated iPod connection.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Thanks, appreciate the response.
I know they are separates, not coaxials. Still an insane amount for a 4" speaker unless you are building a super high end system. The 2 series hardly seems worthy. Especially without decent bass drivers other than the subwoofers. This system seems really compromised unless one does a major custom job to add 8" speakers somehow.

If the owner did, indeed, get the K2 Power set for a reduced price, I'd hardly call that "an insane amount". You could also argue that the amp he used (Arc Audio 1200.6, which I considered personally) is overkill at roughly $850, too. But here's the thing: what determines "an insane amount"? That's a personal judgment and has absolutely nothing to do with the car. There are countless Japanese small cars with five-figure audio systems in them. Is that insane? To those owners, no. Do you have to own a Porsche to justify spending that much on a small component set? HELL no.

But going along with your point: If the K2 Power set ($749 retail) is 'insane', then these Morel speakers are just as insane (and these are Morel's fourth-level set: the Elate Titaniums start at more than $2k), and an equivalent set by, say, Dynaudio is even more. It's all relative, and basically subjective ...

... BUT: If you think about the system you want and match things properly, you don't have to spend that much. For instance: Would I consider running Morel Tempo components in a Porsche? I absolutely would -- and, actually, I am (I have a 718 Cayman on order).

Originally Posted by ryem3

The dedicated Focal ifbmw-c speakers look very nice, but seem to have identical specs to the PC100s. Not exactly a value proposition.

That's because you're paying extra for an easy installation. That's worth a considerable amount to a lot of BMW owners -- otherwise, companies such as BAVsound wouldn't exist, and at least a half dozen other speaker makers wouldn't produce drop-in sets for BMWs, including Focal, Eton, Jehnert, Rockford Fosgate, MB Quart, and others.

Originally Posted by ryem3

I had very good results with a predecessor to the PC100, maybe CVX 100 if I recall correctly. Also, they have directable tweeters, so they could be angled towards the listener from locations in the 2 like the rear shelf and down on the doors. Problem with the factory speakers is they are very glaring, without real highs. You need to turn up the treble to get reasonable highs out of them, but you don't get any real crisp highs. Of course, they can't be too "crisp" or they will simply be fatiguing.

Actually, the biggest problem is the DSP built in to the OEM systems. But the stock tweeters don't help. They completely break apart with any sort of power.

Originally Posted by ryem3

Since we need to rely on the subs for not only deep bass, but mid bass, what are good recommendations on the value end? The Focals are over $500. Are cheaper alternatives worthwhile? Since "bass" is coming out of 4" speakers otherwise, the subs seem like a key item to focus on. Even the better 4" Focals only go down to 70 Hz. The PC100s are speced to only 90 Hz. Do these subs add punch? Are they crisp? Or are they just another muddy set of subwoofers that try to rattle things? I'm very leery of subs and greatly prefer a good solid bass driver. Really not an option here as mentioned.

Consdier these Jehnerts or these BAVsounds. Either will be about as good as one can get down below.

Originally Posted by ryem3

Ah, on the inputs. I believe the USB IS an analog input. It COULD be a digital input if you read data from it like from a thumb drive. Then you rely on the DAC in the car system. I've found that plugging in an iPod into the USB port is taking line level analog output into the audio system. I think I would prefer the iPod DAC to the DAC in the car stereo. I don't know that much about the BMW system, so happily corrected here. In a Porsche, the aux jack was an incredibly poor input. Connecting any player (Fiio, whatever) resulted in MUCH poorer sound quality than using an iPod through the dedicated iPod connection.

Ummm, no. USB is a digital interface; it has absolutely no capability to carry an analog signal. When you plug an iPod into the USB port, the DAC in the head unit is being used -- you're basically using the iPod as a storage device. When you plug it into the Aux In, you're using the iPod's DAC to convert because, conversely, the headphone jack has virtually no capability to carry a digital signal.

I personally use a FiiO X3v2 loaded with either AIFF or FLAC files through the Aux In most of the time. It sounds incredible.

[ryem3]

Thanks much for the info. In terms of cost, there are plenty of ways to spend money, no question about it. I'm also into high end audio. I only question spending a lot of money on 4" speakers as part of a kit that only has 4" speakers! Spend what you like physics here are incredibly limiting.
Curious about the aux input. In my Porsche, the sound was horrible. I ran a Fiio through it and got rid of it. I run lossless on the last model iPod classic and get pretty good quality with the benefit of music on the display (something you completely lose with the aux input). Another element to keep in mind.
Thanks for the links!

[ryem3]

The Bavsound ghosts versus the Focals, which is better? I would bet on the Focals, but without experience, just on the brand. The Focals really don't cost much more.

[jase2addict]

Ryem3 I went with the Focal K2 and Focal under seat subs. Mike what are you thoughts on that arc amp vs 70.6? What would you consider sound quality amps?

[ryem3]

Originally Posted by jase2addict

Ryem3 I went with the Focal K2 and Focal under seat subs. Mike what are you thoughts on that arc amp vs 70.6? What would you consider sound quality amps?

So how is that system with the stock amp? Were the k2s worth $700 a pair???

[ryem3]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Ummm, no. USB is a digital interface; it has absolutely no capability to carry an analog signal. When you plug an iPod into the USB port, the DAC in the head unit is being used -- you're basically using the iPod as a storage device. When you plug it into the Aux In, you're using the iPod's DAC to convert because, conversely, the headphone jack has virtually no capability to carry a digital signal.

I personally use a FiiO X3v2 loaded with either AIFF or FLAC files through the Aux In most of the time. It sounds incredible.

Hmm, that would imply that any Apple cable plugged into the usb port is talking a digital signal from an iPod? Pre DAC? Not so sure about that. I think a standard car interface takes analog line level output from any Apple product. Double check me.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Hmm, that would imply that any Apple cable plugged into the usb port is talking a digital signal from an iPod? Pre DAC? Not so sure about that. I think a standard car interface takes analog line level output from any Apple product. Double check me.

I am 100 percent sure about that.

USB = Universal Serial Bus. It is a data bus designed primarily to supply digital information from computers to peripherals. As such, it requires a driver both upstream and downstream. It became the data bus standard primarily because it was the first widely used bus protocol to also have power supply capability.

It has zero analog signal transfer capability. To wit: the Lightning-to-3.5mm adapter that comes packaged with all iPhone 7s has a DAC built into the USB-side housing. Also to wit: If USB could transfer analog audio, why haven't we seen any USB headphones on the market?

There is NO current bus technology that carries analog audio: Not USB/USB-C, not HDMI, not FireWire, not Lightning, not Thunderbolt. It's all 1s and 0s, and it all requires a DAC of some sort to convert it to audio.

[Audioholics]

Guys;

The mediocrity of the HK system in the 2-series and this thread inspired me to do this video and following undertaking:

[selmeralto]

I'm a little puzzled that you posted this particular video as you did. Some of your comments are helpful in identifying shortcomings of the HK system but you ask for comments. You are post #549. Have you read any of the previous 548 posts?