[proflex957]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

There are plenty of class D amps that sound just fine for tweeters and mids, but for sub frequencies you would need a great ear and a very detailed sub to tell the difference between class D and A/B.

With that being said, this is the Internet. You don't need to apologize for making silly comments. It goes with the territory.

Obviously your not an audiophile is you like class D.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by proflex957

Obviously your not an audiophile is you like class D.

Your mom likes class D.

Seriously though, different applications, different needs. A class D amp for a ported sub is perfect. Who would bother with a trouble of a class A/B amplifier and then not use a sealed enclosure? Audiophile or not, spending $3000 on an amp that doesn't sound acoustically any different to your ear than a $500 amp is the real waste of money.

[zipphreak]

No need to apologize. I love Class D amps for low frequency. Typically the die hard subwoofer SPL guys don't care about sound-quality. Ported boxes are for getting the most out of your specific drivers, and giving a bump in output around the FS of the driver... D's are great for lows and great price points, stable to 1 ohm, and now even 0.5 ohm. Gives flexibility.

My perceived audio quality is subjective.

Also isn't D > B > A ?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by proflex957

Obviously your not an audiophile is you like class D.

I'm an audiophile. But I'm not a total snob. (Most of the time.)

I'm also a somewhat accomplished bass guitar player who knows gear both modern and vintage, and I've run everything from Class A Sunn and Ampeg tube heads to tiny Class D microamps on stage. Believe me: Class D can sound juuuust fine. Actually, it can sound daaaaamn good.

What zipphreak says is true: many who claim they understand bass reproduction actually only care about how it affects them physically (SPL, how the bowels rattle and jiggle and quiver, etc.). Believe me: power is just one part of a pretty complex equation.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I'm an audiophile. But I'm not a total snob. (Most of the time.)

I'm also a somewhat accomplished bass guitar player who knows gear both modern and vintage, and I've run everything from Class A Sunn and Ampeg tube heads to tiny Class D microamps on stage. Believe me: Class D can sound juuuust fine. Actually, it can sound daaaaamn good.

What zipphreak says is true: many who claim they understand bass reproduction actually only care about how it affects them physically (SPL, how the bowels rattle and jiggle and quiver, etc.). Believe me: power is just one part of a pretty complex equation.

True on the bass volume level vs actual bass and sub bass quality.
The HK logic7 in my 335i has plenty of sub bass volume, but there isn't the same level of actual bass quality. There isn't very good bass note quality to match it's volume level. Part of that problem is the lack of good mid-bass drivers that have quality reproduction.
It sounds like they tuned the HK system in the 3 series for pop and hip hop type music where they want volume and low bass extension with a disregard for actual reproduction. Use a quality piano only recording where the piano is being played from high to low and you can hear the big lack of even frequency reproduction.

The HK system in my 335i has a multi band graphic eq, but fiddle all you want you can't make it much better than what is there.
EQ is for fine tuning but not for correcting poor driver choice along with poor cross over selection.
The HK system uses titanium dome tweeters, and I do not like those.
Titanium domes do have very high frequency extension and can produce what the human ear can hear up to 20Khz.
However, the highs they produce are harsh in quality and quickly lead to "hearing fatigue". You notice this by wanting to turn the volume done after a short while of listening. My favorite are silk dome tweeters.

On top of this the HK system uses 2 x 8" subs under the seats.
Those are used in the 3 series and 2 series, just as in the 1 series.
Two 8.5" subs can sound good and give plenty of low end, however, the lack of quality of the sub drivers used in the HK system are a let down. They don't have the magnet strength needed to give tight and controlled low bass extension. They just can't do it because they are a cheap driver.

I installed Earthquake shallow subs in my 135i and those were much better.
The problem was that the stock amp then showed it's lack of quality.
All the links in the chain matter. The weakest link will show over all weakness.

Sounds like BMW isn't and hasn't upgraded the HK audio system for the 2 series.
They'll just keep charging more for less in the 2 series compared to what you get in the 3 series for the same money.
That's really BS and frankly dishonest imo. This car is targeted and marketed towards a younger buyer in the US.
Well, to me that means get the audio correct.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by RPM90

True on the bass volume level vs actual bass and sub bass quality.
The HK logic7 in my 335i has plenty of sub bass volume, but there isn't the same level of actual bass quality. There isn't very good bass note quality to match it's volume level. Part of that problem is the lack of good mid-bass drivers that have quality reproduction.
It sounds like they tuned the HK system in the 3 series for pop and hip hop type music where they want volume and low bass extension with a disregard for actual reproduction. Use a quality piano only recording where the piano is being played from high to low and you can hear the big lack of even frequency reproduction.

The HK system in my 335i has a multi band graphic eq, but fiddle all you want you can't make it much better than what is there.
EQ is for fine tuning but not for correcting poor driver choice along with poor cross over selection.
The HK system uses titanium dome tweeters, and I do not like those.
Titanium domes do have very high frequency extension and can produce what the human ear can hear up to 20Khz.
However, the highs they produce are harsh in quality and quickly lead to "hearing fatigue". You notice this by wanting to turn the volume done after a short while of listening. My favorite are silk dome tweeters.

On top of this the HK system uses 2 x 8" subs under the seats.
Those are used in the 3 series and 2 series, just as in the 1 series.
Two 8.5" subs can sound good and give plenty of low end, however, the lack of quality of the sub drivers used in the HK system are a let down. They don't have the magnet strength needed to give tight and controlled low bass extension. They just can't do it because they are a cheap driver.

I installed Earthquake shallow subs in my 135i and those were much better.
The problem was that the stock amp then showed it's lack of quality.
All the links in the chain matter. The weakest link will show over all weakness.

Sounds like BMW isn't and hasn't upgraded the HK audio system for the 2 series.
They'll just keep charging more for less in the 2 series compared to what you get in the 3 series for the same money.
That's really BS and frankly dishonest imo. This car is targeted and marketed towards a younger buyer in the US.
Well, to me that means get the audio correct.

Decent analysis here, though I wouldn't even give HK (and, ergo, the dreaded Harman International) or BMW credit for 'tuning' the system for specific types of music. What both have done is tune the system for two factors:
1). The tastes of masses that either don't care, listen to a lot of talk radio/audiobooks or talk on the hands-free phone, or don't appreciate low-compression music (much less know what it is) in what is essentially an extremely bad listening room: the car interior.
2). Subpar speaker drivers that are "matched" to two flat-plane chip amps so as to not blow -- speakers OR amp -- if someone turns it up loud. (The three biggest signs of this: lack of low-mid articulation in the door drivers, that the subs are 2 ohm and the rest of the speakers are 4 ohm, and the omission of multi-frequency tone control).

What we have is a very bare-bones audio system sonically in the 2-series. Either option -- Hi-Fi or HK -- is designed like this. It's quite sad, but not totally surprising in what is essentially BMW's entry-level car.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Decent analysis here, though I wouldn't even give HK (and, ergo, the dreaded Harman International) or BMW credit for 'tuning' the system for specific types of music. What both have done is tune the system for two factors:
.

True, true.

[RPM90]

UPDATE:

I heard the base USA audio system in the M235i.
WOW. If the audio engineer who designed and signed off on that POS in the 2 series were in the car with me I would have slapped him hard or maybe thrown him out of the car.
The base audio system is so f'ing bad that I question my choice for choosing BMW.
Simply horrid. It has no definition, no clarity, and don't try to turn it up past a normal conversation volume level as it will fall apart completely. I've heard better sounding boom boxes from Walmart.

I also recently heard the B&O system in an Audi S3.
VERY nice. It is better than the HK system in my F30 335i, and my HK.
I have not had an opportunity to listen to the HK system in the 2 series.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by RPM90

UPDATE:

I heard the base USA audio system in the M235i.
WOW. If the audio engineer who designed and signed off on that POS in the 2 series were in the car with me I would have slapped him hard or maybe thrown him out of the car.
The base audio system is so f'ing bad that I question my choice for choosing BMW.
Simply horrid. It has no definition, no clarity, and don't try to turn it up past a normal conversation volume level as it will fall apart completely. I've heard better sounding boom boxes from Walmart.

I also recently heard the B&O system in an Audi S3.
VERY nice. It is better than the HK system in my F30 335i, and my HK.
I have not had an opportunity to listen to the HK system in the 2 series.

And this is why I shake my head at people in this forum who say the HK isn't worth it. Is it a slap in the face to have to pay for a decent system? Yes. Is the base sound system livable? Hell No.

[W///]

Originally Posted by 2msport

And this is why I shake my head at people in this forum who say the HK isn't worth it. Is it a slap in the face to have to pay for a decent system? Yes. Is the base sound system livable? Hell No.

I think the reason people say this is because you are better off upgrading the base system. It'll sound better than HK.

I'll probably end up going this route with the M2. Not an audiophile by any means, but this is just the consensus from what I've read.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by W///

I think the reason people say this is because you are better off upgrading the base system. It'll sound better than HK.

I'll probably end up going this route with the M2. Not an audiophile by any means, but this is just the consensus from what I've read.

Exactly. I have a high quality set of speakers I can take out of my M235i and put on my next BMW. Initial investment is about what I would pay for the HK option, but now I have a better system than HK and can continue enjoying it in the next car. Those who got the HK got a rather ho-hum system for a lot of money and will probably get another ho-hum system next time around - when BMW decides people will pay $950 for it

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by W///

I think the reason people say this is because you are better off upgrading the base system. It'll sound better than HK.

I'll probably end up going this route with the M2. Not an audiophile by any means, but this is just the consensus from what I've read.

To mirror hyperzulu: this. If you appreciate good (not great), reasonably clear and clean sound on its face -- and you actually know what that is -- neither sound system option in the 2-series is acceptable stock.

If you want a decent-sounding system in a 2-series, get the base system and upgrade that. It's easier, relatively cost effective (can be done acceptably for under $1K), and you have some options.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To mirror hyperzulu: this. If you appreciate good (not great), reasonably clear and clean sound on its face -- and you actually know what that is -- neither sound system option in the 2-series is acceptable stock.

If you want a decent-sounding system in a 2-series, get the base system and upgrade that. It's easier, relatively cost effective (can be done acceptably for under $1K), and you have some options.

You are right on. I got the base system and added four Focal 100s and removed the center speaker. The sound is much improved and my cost was under $500 installed.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DanG

You are right on. I got the base system and added four Focal 100s and removed the center speaker. The sound is much improved and my cost was under $500 installed.

That's really good to know. I don't know much about these things, I'll admit, so I'm just going to follow what you guys do

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by proflex957

Obviously your not an audiophile is you like class D.

Seriously? This isnt 1996. And if you are going to sit there and tell me you can tell what class an amp is, while driving 50+ mph in a 2 series, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, then you are quite the phenom.

I love my old A/B dont get me wrong. And while parked, they probably sound a little better. But they are also 8x's larger than my class d amps, make less than half the power, and could fry an egg after an hour of playing.

Modern Class D is no slouch. And considering Andy W's winning systems used those flat chip amps, I would say those aint to bad either.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by Jonathan95

I have preordered my 228i with the hifi loudspeaker option and im wondering if its worth paying an extra 600 euros to upgrade to harman kardon before its too late. Obvious hk is better but is it worth the extra money? How good is the hifi? What do you guys recommend me?

Stick with the Hi-Fi and spend the money after. HK/Premium is a much more involved process to upgrade. I have HK, but will never do again.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by DanG

You are right on. I got the base system and added four Focal 100s and removed the center speaker. The sound is much improved and my cost was under $500 installed.

Same here: my cost was about $300: I opted for Hertz Energy 100.5s and some pre-made E90 spacers. I'm still debating about an amp ... which I'm inclined not to shell out for because I've found that certain CDs of mine distort because the mix is so dense and dynamic, which is a sign that the electronics in the HU -- specifically either the DAC or the transport -- are poor.

It's jitter city inside the CD slot in my HU ... and I'm realistic enough to realize that I probably won't convince the dealer that my HU may be defective unless another issue comes up. They likely wouldn't know the difference between jitter and the jitterbug ...

[LouisFCO]

If you lease, the HK system is definitely worth the $875 upgrade over the factory system - it is adding only $20-$25 per month to your payment, if that. No point in dropping $1k on a system unless you plan on moving it to your next vehicle.

That being said, the best execution of the HK system is by far, in the i3, no doubt due to the shape of the interior. It even blows the B&O system from the 5, 6, 7, X5, X6 system out of the water. In the 2-series, unfortunately, you get the least effective system, with no equalizer and fewer speakers. Hopefully, the M2 comes with HK standard, and a better setup.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by LouisFCO

If you lease, the HK system is definitely worth the $875 upgrade over the factory system - it is adding only $20-$25 per month to your payment, if that. No point in dropping $1k on a system unless you plan on moving it to your next vehicle.

That being said, the best execution of the HK system is by far, in the i3, no doubt due to the shape of the interior. It even blows the B&O system from the 5, 6, 7, X5, X6 system out of the water. In the 2-series, unfortunately, you get the least effective system, with no equalizer and fewer speakers. Hopefully, the M2 comes with HK standard, and a better setup.

Hopefully not. That would be an awful decision to make HK standard. Waste of money

[LouisFCO]

Originally Posted by Tomahawk

Hopefully not. That would be an awful decision to make HK standard. Waste of money

I was saying that HK need be included AND improved. Not included as it is currently, because it IS the poorest execution in all of our vehicles.

[proflex957]

For those of you interested in hi res audio.....do the research.

http://hiresaudiocentral.com/afterma...-for-your-car/

btw: class D amps do suck.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by proflex957

For those of you interested in hi res audio.....do the research.

http://hiresaudiocentral.com/afterma...-for-your-car/

btw: class D amps do suck.

Hi-res audio in a car all but sucks. What's the point when the acoustics of a car's interior are so bad by their nature (you can't make glass less reflective, you can't eliminate the myriad of specific harmonic resonances in the car's structure, you can't acoustically or electronically eliminate white or environmental noise, etc. etc. etc.) and you're basically having to install an outboard system (NAS, DAC, equalization at a minimum) just to make one of those Audison boxes worthwhile to install?

Hey, dude, go for it if you want. In the meantime, I'll hit a D through my 1,200-watt Genz-Benz CLASS D bass amp and be louder than you, anyway.