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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics B58 (M240i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning 2nd gear grind in manual transmission

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      06-24-2016, 09:30 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
Update: They drained the oil and found metal, so they're currently on hold with BMW re: replacing the entire box or just fixing it. Don't really care so long as it gets fixed.........My guess is that gearboxes aren't supposed to have loose metal floating around.........
It is likely those metal shavings were produced by damaged synchro(s). According to my research and personal experience most synchros are damaged by clutch not disengaging properly (look-up: clutch dragging), very few gearboxes come from the factory with synchros already damaged or weakened.

Because of that I would strongly push them examine the clutch because if it has a disengagement problem it will keep eating synchros and therefore gearboxes. That's what was happening in my case anyway: I hope you have better luck.
My guess is that they'll probably look at it and replace the whole unit (clutch, pressure plate, gearbox, etc.). I'm sure BMW is curious as to why the box failed in this manner.

Hopefully it's just a bad box. It happens.
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      06-25-2016, 07:50 PM   #90
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Sorry to hear about these issues for you fellas. I'm sure corporate will do the right thing and correct the problems. I actually ran into similar issues twice on my old IS250 manual. It wasn't until it went in for a third time that they replaced the dual mass flywheel and all was good. If they are replacing all the parts under warranty i would strongly push them to mate a new flywheel to the new clutch. These flywheels from my understanding are quite complex, crazy expensive and usually the weakest link unfortunately. I would even say that the gearbox/tranny will still be ok.

My second transmission was grinding after a few hundred kilometres then they finally dumped my original DMF and all was good.

Keep us posted!
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      06-27-2016, 03:19 PM   #91
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Update:

Called the dealership and the shop notes said "complete transmission failure" (not entirely accurate, but whatever). My new gearbox is on its way (thank god for warranty). I have a question into the shop foreman as to whether this means flywheel, clutch, gearbox, etc., or just the gearbox. I'll let you know when I find out more.
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      06-27-2016, 07:25 PM   #92
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Same here, my new transmission goes in tomorrow.
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      06-27-2016, 09:10 PM   #93
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Did you notice anything abnormal aside from the 1-2 grind at high rpm? When my flywheel was on its way out it was big time inconsistent with engagement, I was getting vibrations in the pedal and under hard acceleration and also some strange noises when first lifting from 1st.

I would think the flywheel is toast in your case as the gearbox is the first victim once they start failing.
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      06-27-2016, 09:20 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by amw896
Did you notice anything abnormal aside from the 1-2 grind at high rpm? When my flywheel was on its way out it was big time inconsistent with engagement, I was getting vibrations in the pedal and under hard acceleration and also some strange noises when first lifting from 1st.

I would think the flywheel is toast in your case as the gearbox is the first victim once they start failing.
Never had that issue. Just a grind at high rpm from 1 to 2 - nothing else.
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      06-29-2016, 03:13 PM   #95
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Update:

Gearbox is going in the car today. They are only replacing the box -- no flywheel, no clutch.

Honestly, I am okay with this. I never had issues with clutch engagement/disengagement or with the flywheel. The problem was isolated to 1-2 shifts above 5000 rpm. Ive done plenty of redline shifts (on a racetrack -- I'm not crazy) from 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5, and it never had an issue. I think the problem is isolated to that synchro -- defect? Who knows. I'll be sure to watch out for any future problems.

In any event, my plan is to break the transmission in for 1,200 miles, and then do a fluid swap/drain for some redline.
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      06-29-2016, 03:27 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
Update:

Gearbox is going in the car today. They are only replacing the box -- no flywheel, no clutch.

Honestly, I am okay with this. I never had issues with clutch engagement/disengagement or with the flywheel. The problem was isolated to 1-2 shifts above 5000 rpm. Ive done plenty of redline shifts (on a racetrack -- I'm not crazy) from 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5, and it never had an issue. I think the problem is isolated to that synchro -- defect? Who knows. I'll be sure to watch out for any future problems.

In any event, my plan is to break the transmission in for 1,200 miles, and then do a fluid swap/drain for some redline.
This 1-2 grind issue seems to be the primary reported problem with these transmissions, currently and historically. Even Motor Trend has reported a 1-2 "crunch" with their 6MT M2 tester which has the same exact 6MT. Current gen M3/M4 owners have reported similar problems and replacements. It's not widespread, BUT there aren't many 6MTs out there. That's unfortunate.

Just curious:

1) Do you have any power modifications?
2) Do you routinely do high rpm 1-2 shifts?

My 2016 M235 6MT only has 4K miles and the shifting feels completely fine. I can't say I often wind out 1st much though or slam a 1-2 shift. Maybe once a month I'll so do it, but nailing it in 2nd and grabbing a quick 2-3 shift is pretty normal. Hitting a 1-2 shift in any manual car has always felt a bit harsh. Apparently the 1-2 syncros are a bit pissy in these trannies.
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      06-29-2016, 04:28 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
This 1-2 grind issue seems to be the primary reported problem with these transmissions, currently and historically. Even Motor Trend has reported a 1-2 "crunch" with their 6MT M2 tester which has the same exact 6MT. Current gen M3/M4 owners have reported similar problems and replacements. It's not widespread, BUT there aren't many 6MTs out there. That's unfortunate.

Just curious:

1) Do you have any power modifications?
2) Do you routinely do high rpm 1-2 shifts?

My 2016 M235 6MT only has 4K miles and the shifting feels completely fine. I can't say I often wind out 1st much though or slam a 1-2 shift. Maybe once a month I'll so do it, but nailing it in 2nd and grabbing a quick 2-3 shift is pretty normal. Hitting a 1-2 shift in any manual car has always felt a bit harsh. Apparently the 1-2 syncros are a bit pissy in these trannies.
I have no power modifications, and I very, very rarely do high rpm 1-2 shifts.

Yeah, I know that these problems exist in most manual transmission cars -- they don't really like being slam shifted from 1 to 2 (unless its a honda tranny, I guess). I think its based on the fact that the gear ratio change from 1 to 2 is much greater than the change from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc, so the synchros have to do a lot more work, leading to failure.

I'm not terribly worried about it. The car didn't always have this issue, so I don't think it is a design flaw -- something just broke is all.
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      06-29-2016, 05:34 PM   #98
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good to hear it'll be sorted liquid!
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      07-01-2016, 12:05 PM   #99
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Update:

Got my car back with the new gearbox. Problem is completely fixed, and it feels much, much better than it ever has. Gear shift feels like a well-oiled bolt-action rifle, no vagueness or rubberiness at all. Very confidence inspiring.
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      07-01-2016, 06:06 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
Update:

Got my car back with the new gearbox. Problem is completely fixed, and it feels much, much better than it ever has. Gear shift feels like a well-oiled bolt-action rifle, no vagueness or rubberiness at all. Very confidence inspiring.
I know that feeling of freshly installed and/or adjusted manual gearbox. Give it a couple of months though and it will lose its tightness: apparently cars like Honda have "much better" transmission than our M135i/235i, see below:
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      07-01-2016, 06:11 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
Update:

Got my car back with the new gearbox. Problem is completely fixed, and it feels much, much better than it ever has. Gear shift feels like a well-oiled bolt-action rifle, no vagueness or rubberiness at all. Very confidence inspiring.
I know that feeling of freshly installed and/or adjusted manual gearbox. Give it a couple of months though and it will lose its tightness: apparently cars like Honda have "much better" transmission than our M135i/235i, see below:
Dunno about that - never felt this good even when I bought it.
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      07-01-2016, 06:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper
Update:

Got my car back with the new gearbox. Problem is completely fixed, and it feels much, much better than it ever has. Gear shift feels like a well-oiled bolt-action rifle, no vagueness or rubberiness at all. Very confidence inspiring.
nice!
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      08-05-2016, 02:25 PM   #103
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Got mine back also. Shift much better than original.
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      08-05-2016, 07:02 PM   #104
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After 6 months of fairly hard use, the 6mt in my 2016 m235 feels rock solid. The only change was that it's become easier to get into 2nd.
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      08-06-2016, 11:44 AM   #105
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When the car was new I found the 6MT to be notchy and required some finesse on the 1 to 2 shift at moderate RPM's. Was worse still when cold. My solution was to go easy for the first 15 minutes or so and grinding was non existent. Now the car has close to 5 K on the odometer and while I still shift easy for the warm up period, the notchiness is gone and the shifts, even at higher RPM's are smooth all the time. Guess that the tranny needs a little break in time as well. Crunching it early in its life seems like the recipe for early tranny failures.
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      08-06-2016, 08:55 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidpaper View Post
Yeah, I know that these problems exist in most manual transmission cars -- they don't really like being slam shifted from 1 to 2 (unless its a honda tranny, I guess).
I don't think most manual transmission cars grind when doing a hard 1-2 shifts. American muscle cars definitely do not grind. I've had U.S V-8 cars with manual transmissions since my first car - a 1974 Camaro Z28 - right up to the 2005 Mustang GT that I sold before buying the 2er. You could literally slam those shifters into 2nd gear and they're practically bullet-proof. In fact, the Muncie M-22 transmission I had in a 4-4-2 was affectionately known as the "rock crusher."

The BMW shifter is slicker than American shifters under general conditions. I had a Hurst short-throw in the Mustang and it was precise like a rifle bolt action, but very high effort. The M235i shifter feels like butter in comparison. But the BMW shifter just feels like it could never take the abuse that a U.S. muscle car transmission can take. I'm not even going to take the chance and try it.
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      08-07-2016, 05:07 AM   #107
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I have read almost all the posts in this thread and recently picked up my M235i. June 2016 production and still in the break in period where I keep the RPMs lower than 4500k and driving it like a grandpa without hooning the engine. Why does it seem like there's a higher chance risk that the MT are experiencing either gearbox/transmission issues? I hope I am not the case... time to rack up more mileage on the car and pass the break in period and let her rip.
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      08-07-2016, 09:24 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siwo
I have read almost all the posts in this thread and recently picked up my M235i. June 2016 production and still in the break in period where I keep the RPMs lower than 4500k and driving it like a grandpa without hooning the engine. Why does it seem like there's a higher chance risk that the MT are experiencing either gearbox/transmission issues? I hope I am not the case... time to rack up more mileage on the car and pass the break in period and let her rip.
I don't think it's a common issue aside from it happening to a few folks here unfortunately. I've had mine for almost 6 months and its never happened on my 2015. I drive it pretty hard daily but always, once I hit operating temp. It's a dry sump gearbox! I think someone in another post was complaining about grinding when they were ripping 6k rpm after pulling out of the driveway lol.

Also, my old civic si did the same thing when I bought it used and I drove on it for like 120k. It never came to complete failure I would just have to do the 1-2 shift a bit slower at high rpm, otherwise it led to a nice audible grind during engagement.
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      08-07-2016, 11:43 AM   #109
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Yep, it's always good practice to let the gear box warm up before ripping on it. On a cold start, you could be looking at 5-10 minutes at least. The 1-2 syncro being the part with the most potential for damage.


I will say this about the 6MT, specifically the clutch, although the clutch pedal is fairly light and the overall clutch take-up quite long, the primary engagement point range is quite narrow. For me, a guy that has around 20 years of driving manuals under his belt, this car is somewhat difficult to get moving smoothly without concentrating and also on the 1-2 shift. I also find lower rpm rev matching hard to complete smoothly because the flywheel feels kind of heavy and the throttle pedal somewhat dead (even in Sport+) in the initial range of application. On many occasions when I'm on a decline or barely rolling, I'll just start in 2nd and then skip shift into 4th or 5th.

During hard driving, the 6MT and clutch is money. The car is terribly easy for me to launch and manage wheel spin, I can bang the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts with ease (although I can feel the CDV and traction control at play on the 1-2, especially in Sport or Sport+), and rev match downshifts are easy.

I guess you can't have it both ways.
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      08-14-2016, 04:59 AM   #110
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Hi Guys. I'm Mike from Johannesburg, South Africa. I drive a 2013 Manual M135i, apologies for crashing your 2 forum. I read this with great interest as my car is now going in again for the 2nd gearbox replacement and clutch replacement with exactly the same problem as few of you guys on this forum. I am very annoyed and disappointed, but don't have much choice except wait and see what happens with the new box. Again, apologies for gate crashing your 2 series forum with my 1 series issue I found this forum very helpful, and enlightening. So thanks Guys.
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