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      08-29-2020, 12:00 PM   #1
mikeysosa
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Novice Tracking Questions

Howdy! I'm new to tracking and have always wanted to but never had the time due to work etc. I was wondering at what point is it a good idea to start tracking? I have FBO and JB4 and am thinking about running BMS meth injection. But first, I wanted to upgrade the suspension. What do y'all suggest is the best before getting out on the track? I'm looking for something relatively aggressive on road (I'm young, I don't need comfort ) and something that's able to go on the track but not meant solely for track use. Also, what do y'all suggest I should upgrade as well as suspension before I head on out to the track? Thanks all!
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      08-29-2020, 12:50 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeysosa View Post
I was wondering at what point is it a good idea to start tracking? What do y'all suggest is the best before getting out on the track? I'm looking for something relatively aggressive on road (I'm young, I don't need comfort ) and something that's able to go on the track but not meant solely for track use. Also, what do y'all suggest I should upgrade as well as suspension before I head on out to the track? Thanks all!
As soon as you can afford to do it is the best time to start.

My mod recommendations, in order:

0) The Driver Mod* – this mod outweighs all others put together (my 2¢, of course)
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
1) Uprated Brake Fluid and Brake Pads
2) Tires – ones that will hold up to track abuse and still be safe when it's raining while street driving
3) Schroth Quick Fit Pro 4-Point Harnesses
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
4) Limited Slip Differential
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
5) Camber Plates – or whatever means you choose to achieve a street/track alignment in front
6) A Street/Track Alignment – one that pretty much ignores tire wear on the street (e.g., the tires may last only 8-10K)

Forget the go-fast bits; they make no difference in the corners (where the fun is), and the car is more than fast enough on the straights. Learning to drive well is job one.

My list is oriented towards reducing the time between starting tracking and becoming the kind of driver who can get more than 75-80% out of his car as-built.

If you really want to shrink that time frame, hire a professional race car driver to coach you after you've done 10-20 events.

Be prepared to burn your brakes down. To see what that means, search for threads with statements like "why are my calipers this ugly green-brown color?". If you can swing it, drive with a club that has instructors who can help prevent you from doing that. Learning and applying correct braking techniques will make you faster and safer than just about anything else on a race track. Those techniques are radically different than anything you're used to doing on the street.

In that vein, I recommend focusing on events where instructing novice and intermediate drivers is taken seriously. Many events are not well-organized to develop novice and intermediate drivers. I recommend events sponsored by BMWCCA chapters in your region (https://www.bmwcca.org/chapter/finder), NASA (http://www.drivenasafl.com/), and Chin Track Days (https://chintrackdays.com/).

* The driver mod entails doing everything you can to become a better driver: listening to your instructors, trying autocross to see if you like it, driving any car control clinics that may be offered in your area, and studying the craft (there's quite a bit of free information at these two sites: https://speedsecrets.com/ and http://www.peterkrause.net/Krause_%2...C/Welcome.html).
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      08-29-2020, 07:32 PM   #3
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Novice Tracking Questions

Wow, thanks for the in-depth response. I do have some questions though: 1.) What alignment and camber setup do you suggest? (As well as which camber plates) 2.) What tire setup do you have? I just got Michelin Sports, would these do? 3.) Should I replace control arms etc.? 4.) What brake pads and brake fluid combination do you suggest?
Thanks so much! Sorry for the novice questions :/
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      08-29-2020, 07:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
As soon as you can afford to do it is the best time to start.

My mod recommendations, in order:

0) The Driver Mod* – this mod outweighs all others put together (my 2¢, of course)
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
1) Uprated Brake Fluid and Brake Pads
2) Tires – ones that will hold up to track abuse and still be safe when it's raining while street driving
3) Schroth Quick Fit Pro 4-Point Harnesses
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
4) Limited Slip Differential
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
5) Camber Plates – or whatever means you choose to achieve a street/track alignment in front
6) A Street/Track Alignment – one that pretty much ignores tire wear on the street (e.g., the tires may last only 8-10K)

Forget the go-fast bits; they make no difference in the corners (where the fun is), and the car is more than fast enough on the straights. Learning to drive well is job one.

My list is oriented towards reducing the time between starting tracking and becoming the kind of driver who can get more than 75-80% out of his car as-built.

If you really want to shrink that time frame, hire a professional race car driver to coach you after you've done 10-20 events.

Be prepared to burn your brakes down. To see what that means, search for threads with statements like "why are my calipers this ugly green-brown color?". If you can swing it, drive with a club that has instructors who can help prevent you from doing that. Learning and applying correct braking techniques will make you faster and safer than just about anything else on a race track. Those techniques are radically different than anything you're used to doing on the street.

In that vein, I recommend focusing on events where instructing novice and intermediate drivers is taken seriously. Many events are not well-organized to develop novice and intermediate drivers. I recommend events sponsored by BMWCCA chapters in your region (https://www.bmwcca.org/chapter/finder), NASA (http://www.drivenasafl.com/), and Chin Track Days (https://chintrackdays.com/).

* The driver mod entails doing everything you can to become a better driver: listening to your instructors, trying autocross to see if you like it, driving any car control clinics that may be offered in your area, and studying the craft (there's quite a bit of free information at these two sites: https://speedsecrets.com/ and http://www.peterkrause.net/Krause_%2...C/Welcome.html).

I would add as 1.5) the M4 LCAs
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      08-29-2020, 07:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeysosa View Post
Wow, thanks for the in-depth response. I do have some questions though: 1.) What alignment and camber setup do you suggest? (As well as which camber plates) 2.) What tire setup do you have? I just got Michelin Sports, would these do? 3.) Should I replace control arms etc.? 4.) What brake pads and brake fluid combination do you suggest?
Thanks so much! Sorry for the novice questions :/
1) if you do M4 LCAs you will get about -1.8 in the front with adjusted toe to around 0.05 in.. rear you can do about the same as its adjustable with a bit more to in 0.10 ....

2) PSS WON'T do they have very soft sidewalls... do something like RE-71R ... Direzza star spec or Hankook RS4s

3) Yes get the M4 LCAs and you will need an alignment

4) fluid Motul RBF600 ... EBC YellowStuff is a good hybrid pad that is decent on the track and very streetable
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      08-29-2020, 10:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
As soon as you can afford to do it is the best time to start.

My mod recommendations, in order:
...
Listen to these recommendations, there's a lot of wisdom offered here.

If you want to understand how much more important 0) is than anything else, ask your instructor to drive your car for a few laps. Most would be happy to do that. Then you'll realize how much more pace there is in the car as it is, no other mods needed.

The one thing I'd change in dradernh 's list is swap the order of brake upgrades and a front camber solution. It's easy to completely destroy the outside of your front tires in just a single day without enough camber. Really, any camber plate will do -- Ground Control, Vorshlag, TC Kline, or any of the other typical solutions -- offset bushings, eccentric strut bolts, slotted strut towers, etc.

The forums here also love recommending the F80 lower control arms, which give you a fixed 2 degrees or so. That's fine if you don't plan on getting any faster. If you do, you'll end up needing more camber and you're back to square one.

In terms of tires, I'd say stick with the PSS you have for now. They're actually surprisingly good in single-lap pace -- I've gotten them within 2 seconds compared to RE71rs on a ~2:10 lap. And they're perfect for learning -- once they're near their grip limit, they start getting very loud, and they approach that limit much more gradually. The more aggressive tires tend to snap quietly and suddenly, so you really have to catch them quickly without as much warning. Where the PSS fail is handling heat in repeated pushing -- once you see them starting to chunk, it's a good time to move to more aggressive tires.

Last edited by msendit; 08-29-2020 at 10:34 PM..
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      08-30-2020, 03:27 PM   #7
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I'm doing "light" track and some driver schools. Here's what I have done so far and has helped.

1) Downpipe, Catted added some HP/torgue (321 WHP with SAE) No tune
2) Chargepipe, thats a must, assuming you have done with boost
3) I did Powerflex upper thrust bushings, tightened steering and response, enough so I'm not replacing LCA. - for now..I may if more serious
4) Ferodo DS2500 pads and Motul fluid. (bit better than stock won't screech much on road, if any)
5) Titan 7 TS5 forged rims and PS4 235/40 final piece, looks and traction. (crap RFT are not good for road lol)
6) Rogue Short Shifter, not as much for track, but after having, I'll love there, obviously manual !)

As others with way more exp. lil more HP with downpipe is solid, but brakes and tires and handling. Next step for me would be camber plates
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      08-31-2020, 02:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
I'm doing "light" track and some driver schools. Here's what I have done so far and has helped.

1) Downpipe, Catted added some HP/torgue (321 WHP with SAE) No tune
2) Chargepipe, thats a must, assuming you have done with boost
3) I did Powerflex upper thrust bushings, tightened steering and response, enough so I'm not replacing LCA. - for now..I may if more serious
4) Ferodo DS2500 pads and Motul fluid. (bit better than stock won't screech much on road, if any)
5) Titan 7 TS5 forged rims and PS4 235/40 final piece, looks and traction. (crap RFT are not good for road lol)
6) Rogue Short Shifter, not as much for track, but after having, I'll love there, obviously manual !)

As others with way more exp. lil more HP with downpipe is solid, but brakes and tires and handling. Next step for me would be camber plates
Do you think wheel spacers would fly? Or would that put too much stress on the wheel bearings? (Never tracked before, is it obvious? lol)
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      08-31-2020, 03:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeysosa View Post
Wow, thanks for the in-depth response. I do have some questions though: 1.) What alignment and camber setup do you suggest? (As well as which camber plates) 2.) What tire setup do you have? I just got Michelin Sports, would these do? 3.) Should I replace control arms etc.? 4.) What brake pads and brake fluid combination do you suggest?
Thanks so much! Sorry for the novice questions :/
1) I can tell you what I chose, but that won't necessarily be what's best for your circumstances. See below for my build, where you'll see my camber settings (in post #13) and that I went with a TC Kline suspension package, including their camber plates. I haven't used any of the other brands; my previous cars had custom-built camber plates.

2) See #1. Also, msendit's recommendation that you use PSS' to start with is a good one.

3) This depends. If what you want to do is go to the track and have some fun they might be sufficient. I'm not really sure. I suspect most drivers will be better off with camber plates. If the bug bites you and you decide to do more than three events a year, you would probably be better off buying a quality set of coilovers and the camber plates that come with it. If I were in your shoes, I would seek out the nearest qualified shop that specializes in BMWs and prepares both track and race cars. A good shop will likely have a wealth of experience that outstrips what you'll find here.

4a) Stay away from so-called street/track pads. Fundamentally, those are street pads and are not well-suited to our cars when they're used hard on a race track. For pads, I can recommend Performance Friction PFC 08 (https://www.bimmerworld.com/PFC-08-R...-08-17-44.html) and Hawk DTC-70 (https://www.bimmerworld.com/Hawk-DTC...0-F82-F87.html). Note that both links are to front pads only; you'll need a set of front and rear pads for the track.

Racing pads will be fine on the track, but you may not like them on the street for the noise they can make and the significant amount of brake dust they produce. Me, I just deal with it; others choose to change pads for the track and then back again.

4b) I recommend Castrol SRF (it doesn't absorb water - more on that subject here: (https://www.bimmerworld.com/Castrol-...ake-Fluid.html) and AP Racing's R4 (https://www.essexparts.com/ap-radi-cal-r4-brake-fluid). Those fluids cost substantially more than something like Motul 660, which many drivers use and have been happy with.

It's best to flush racing brake fluids once a year instead of the scheduled once every two years for the OEM fluid.

If your brake pedal gets soft at the track, it's likely for one of two reasons: your brake fluid has been overheated and now needs to be bled, or you've experienced pad knock-back. More on the latter phenomenon in the second paragraph of the Anti-Knockback Springs section in this blog post: https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...-f80-m3-f82-m4.

I've experienced pad knockback in my cars at tracks where I've gone over certain curbs. The solution is to lightly tap the brake pedal with your left foot as soon as possible after going over those curbs and before the next braking zone. The issue is that you'll have a very soft brake pedal if you get pad knockback. If it happens, start pumping the brake pedal. It can be pretty scary.

Your instructor at the track should be willing to discuss all things braking with you. After all, they're what's keeping both of you safe once you're out there.

In case you haven't seen it, following is a link to what I think of as a basic street/track build. As you'll note, it wasn't inexpensive. It addresses brakes, tires, alignment, suspension, grip, and driver/passenger safety, and nothing else.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1532418

I recommend you also look at the build threads of msendit and capt_and. Sometimes, reading the builds of other drivers can prevent your making mistakes or going down dead-ends with your own car. Most track rats have gone through multiple iterations of suspensions, brakes, and tires, as well as other components. If you decide to develop your car, asking as you are for the experiences of those who have gone before you may help you to do as little of that as possible.

Good luck with it, and feel free to continue asking questions.
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      09-01-2020, 05:05 PM   #10
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^^ Agree with all points above.

For me to, get most enjoyment out of a $$ track day: track pads, RBF600/600 or SRF brake fluid, and a good set of tires. The pads swap in 10min per side, no reason not to run a track pad and swap back to street once you're back home. I made the mistake of using a street/track pad and it was no good. Tires are up to you, as long as they are fairly new, quality, you can have a great time. If you are going for PBs and more confident, you can get a nice set of 200tw or 100tw tires and have a blast.

These cars are really heavy and quite honestly feel like it-- don't be surprised if you point by Miatas and other momentum cars. Other heavy cars such as Camaros, M4s, and even our M2 friends have the benefit of massive amounts of contact patch. Not much you can do to override physics when the car behind you with a similar power:weight ratio is sitting on 285 or 305 square tires!!
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      09-02-2020, 10:01 AM   #11
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I considered myself a dyed in the wool car guy, but hadn't tried tracking; once I did it completely rewrote most of what I thought I knew about driving, especially that concept of 'doing something at 7/10ths or 10/10ths' - you will never look at driving your car the same way again. I'd say that first up is to go do some HPDE time to see if you like it. You will find that this is is a whole different dimension from the street-modder 'buy some more parts' mentality (not that you can't quickly go broke, but most of what you think of as 'speed parts' are either useless or worse on track). And you need to check your competition mindset at the door - it isn't about going faster, it is about driving better. If you care about who passes you, stick to stoplight drags with the high school kids (but it is kind of a thrill to be bombing down the back straight at 120 and get your doors blown off by somebody at 160, or to finally get a point by from the Ferrari - yeah, he was on his cool down lap, but it is still memorable).

The only parts that you should really consider replacing to do this will be better pads and fluid (I'm on Ferodo 200 and Motul 660). Don't go up to hot tires (200 or 100 wear ratings) until you have a few seasons under your belt, as they make it harder to learn the limits (and if you find those limits, you'll be going a lot faster, so more likely to incur some damage). The Scroth belts are also a great addition, and even if you don't like tracking they will look real cool at cars and coffee. Everything else noted above is, IMHO, premature until you know if you really love it. If you do, then break out the checkbook. It is habit forming, so you have been warned. General priority is reliability > braking > handling >experience (seat time and coaching). Power and more tire are optional, and I meet a lot of VERY experienced drivers who have no need for either. At your first HPDE notice how those well-driven Miatas and E30's are eating your lunch with about half the Hp and a third of the torque (and how badly driven some of those 600hp 'supercars' are).

And I know I'm a wonk on this, but your contact patch has nothing to do with how wide the tires are (that is a function of weight and pressure), so don't spend a mint on width (go for the light wheels first - you notice the benefits of lightness everywhere). Tires are so specialized, that a lot of good advice is way wrong if you aren't in the exact same situation as the advisor (autocross and track sessions are VERY different). Many of the semi-comp tires that get high regards are very specialized - they'll give a few hot laps, then may turn to goo after 15 minutes on a warm track, go from sticking like crazy to full skid without any audible warning, or heat cycle out into useless hockey pucks after a few events.
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      09-03-2020, 06:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeysosa View Post
Howdy! I'm new to tracking and have always wanted to but never had the time due to work etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I considered myself a dyed in the wool car guy, but hadn't tried tracking; once I did it completely rewrote most of what I thought I knew about driving, especially that concept of 'doing something at 7/10ths or 10/10ths' - you will never look at driving your car the same way again. I'd say that first up is to go do some HPDE time to see if you like it. You will find that this is is a whole different dimension from the street-modder 'buy some more parts' mentality (not that you can't quickly go broke, but most of what you think of as 'speed parts' are either useless or worse on track). And you need to check your competition mindset at the door - it isn't about going faster, it is about driving better. If you care about who passes you, stick to stoplight drags with the high school kids (but it is kind of a thrill to be bombing down the back straight at 120 and get your doors blown off by somebody at 160, or to finally get a point by from the Ferrari - yeah, he was on his cool down lap, but it is still memorable).

The only parts that you should really consider replacing to do this will be better pads and fluid (I'm on Ferodo 200 and Motul 660). Don't go up to hot tires (200 or 100 wear ratings) until you have a few seasons under your belt, as they make it harder to learn the limits (and if you find those limits, you'll be going a lot faster, so more likely to incur some damage). The Scroth belts are also a great addition, and even if you don't like tracking they will look real cool at cars and coffee. Everything else noted above is, IMHO, premature until you know if you really love it. If you do, then break out the checkbook. It is habit forming, so you have been warned. General priority is reliability > braking > handling >experience (seat time and coaching). Power and more tire are optional, and I meet a lot of VERY experienced drivers who have no need for either. At your first HPDE notice how those well-driven Miatas and E30's are eating your lunch with about half the Hp and a third of the torque (and how badly driven some of those 600hp 'supercars' are).

And I know I'm a wonk on this, but your contact patch has nothing to do with how wide the tires are (that is a function of weight and pressure), so don't spend a mint on width (go for the light wheels first - you notice the benefits of lightness everywhere). Tires are so specialized, that a lot of good advice is way wrong if you aren't in the exact same situation as the advisor (autocross and track sessions are VERY different). Many of the semi-comp tires that get high regards are very specialized - they'll give a few hot laps, then may turn to goo after 15 minutes on a warm track, go from sticking like crazy to full skid without any audible warning, or heat cycle out into useless hockey pucks after a few events.
Maynard's is excellent practical and down-to-earth advice.

If OP gets into tracking and continues with it, I suggest it's worth re-reading this from time to time so as to avoid some of the rabbit holes associated with this hobby.
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