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      12-11-2018, 12:55 PM   #155
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Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

I'm sure they would've resisted the "invasion" with their power and, if not, war would start and they would nuke Russia.

According to your premises of invasion, etc...
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      12-11-2018, 12:57 PM   #156
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You forgot the 1,000,000 that died in the firebombing of Tokyo

But yeah, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were payback

PS: nice deflection
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      12-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #157
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Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

.
Interesting premise......
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      12-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #158
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What deflection?
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      12-11-2018, 01:08 PM   #159
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Umm, bringing up WWII as it relates to the Ukraine..

It's also hyperbole to think Ukraine would've nuked Russia over Crimea. Or the West starting WWIII over it either.
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      12-11-2018, 01:09 PM   #160
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Umm, bringing up WWII as it relates to the Ukraine..

It's also hyperbole to think Ukraine would've nuked Russia over Crimea. Or the West starting WWIII over it either.
I understand your opinion.

Cheers
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      12-11-2018, 01:15 PM   #161
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I understand your opinion.

Cheers
Nice follow up. And links supporting your position. Very typical alt-right response.
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      12-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #162
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Nice follow up. And links supporting your position. Very typical alt-right response.
Careful, he might call you out on a spelling mistake
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      12-11-2018, 01:33 PM   #163
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So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
No, I am saying Nukes are a MASSIVE deterrent from invasion and war. I think Russia would have been MUCH less likely to invade Ukraine or any other country that has their nuclear weapons/assets/deterrents.

It would also be in the world's best interest to help Ukraine, in the event of an invasion, so that they would not be tempted use their nuclear capabilities on a foreign country that was invading them. Or allow a foreign country to take control of those nuclear weapons/assets. They could literally just make a statement, "We are going to be forced to use our nuclear capabilities if foreign governments do not help repel the foreign invasion. The US and EU would have gotten involved immediately as NO ONE wants a nuclear war.

It's like gun control. Take away all the guns and there is no deterrent. Remove the guns from the people, then the Military and Police have full control. Nukes were the deterrent and they nurtured themselves by getting rid of them. Hence why Russia just walked right in, took control, and why the rest of the world didn't do jack shit.

Same reason we have nukes, they are a deterrent, no one wants to engage in nuclear war.

Last edited by Torgus; 12-11-2018 at 01:39 PM..
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      12-11-2018, 01:50 PM   #164
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No, the rest of the world did jack shit because Crimea was not worth WWIII, Vlad understood that, and Ukraine isn't an Article 5 NATO country.
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      12-11-2018, 01:55 PM   #165
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Does Finland have a large population that is native to Russia?
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      12-11-2018, 02:01 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Does Finland have a large population that is native to Russia?
Yes. Today's Finland was under Russian rule for a considerable time going back to the 1800s if memory serves me correctly. Well over 100 years they held that land so 2-3 generations if not more. Russia has always had a thing for Finland.

If you don't think nukes are a deterrent I am not sure what to tell you. Again, like guns. I would rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.
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      12-11-2018, 02:10 PM   #167
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Does Finland have a large population that is native to Russia?
No, but the 3 baltic countries do: Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Lucky for them, they ARE NATO countries. They originally did not have large populations of Russians, but the Soviets brought in millions of Russian settlers. Much like Ukraine.
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      12-11-2018, 02:10 PM   #168
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Nukes are a deterrent which is exactly why the West didn't get involved over Crimea. You're not wrong there. Russia wasn't rolling on Kiev. In that case, I would agree if Ukraine had nukes, let 'em fly. Over Crimea, sorry, I still don't buy it.

And in regards to Russians in Finland:
Quote:
About 30,000 people have citizenship of the Russian Federation (2015)and Russian is the mother language of about 70,000 people in Finland, which represents about 1.3% of the population
That doesn't sound significant to me.
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      12-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

I'm sure they would've resisted the "invasion" with their power and, if not, war would start and they would nuke Russia.

According to your premises of invasion, etc...
If your referring to WW2 and Pearl Harbor I'm going to have to disagree. The US dropped the bombs to save many more Americans lives from the impending invasion of Japan.
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      12-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
No, but the 3 baltic countries do: Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Lucky for them, they ARE NATO countries. They originally did not have large populations of Russians, but the Soviets brought in millions of Russian settlers. Much like Ukraine.
No argument from me there.
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      12-11-2018, 02:14 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Nukes are a deterrent which is exactly why the West didn't get involved over Crimea. You're not wrong there. Russia wasn't rolling on Kiev. In that case, I would agree if Ukraine had nukes, let 'em fly. Over Crimea, sorry, I still don't buy it.

And in regards to Russians in Finland:
Quote:
About 30,000 people have citizenship of the Russian Federation (2015)and Russian is the mother language of about 70,000 people in Finland, which represents about 1.3% of the population
That doesn't sound significant to me.
1.3% isn't but 4.8% is?
What's your threshold for significance?

Let me guess: you draw the line at 4%, right?
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      12-11-2018, 02:15 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

I'm sure they would've resisted the "invasion" with their power and, if not, war would start and they would nuke Russia.

According to your premises of invasion, etc...
If your referring to WW2 and Pearl Harbor I'm going to have to disagree. The US dropped the bombs to save many more Americans lives from the impending invasion of Japan.
I appreciate it, thanks.

I'm merely suggesting it has been done before. Regardless of motives.
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      12-11-2018, 02:17 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

I'm sure they would've resisted the "invasion" with their power and, if not, war would start and they would nuke Russia.

According to your premises of invasion, etc...
If your referring to WW2 and Pearl Harbor I'm going to have to disagree. The US dropped the bombs to save many more Americans lives from the impending invasion of Japan.
I appreciate it, thanks.

I'm merely suggesting it has been done before. Regardless of motives.
Understood. I just wanted to state that revenge for Pearl Harbor wasn't the United States primary motivation for dropping the bombs is all.
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      12-11-2018, 02:18 PM   #174
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1.3% isn't but 4.8% is?
What's your threshold for significance?

Let me guess: you draw the line at 4%, right?
So now you're going to argue which is more historically "Russian", Finland or Crimea?

Go ahead, knock yourself out
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      12-11-2018, 02:19 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
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Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
Why not? The US killed 200,000 innocent civilians over the death of 3,000 military personnel...

I'm sure they would've resisted the "invasion" with their power and, if not, war would start and they would nuke Russia.

According to your premises of invasion, etc...
If your referring to WW2 and Pearl Harbor I'm going to have to disagree. The US dropped the bombs to save many more Americans lives from the impending invasion of Japan.
I appreciate it, thanks.

I'm merely suggesting it has been done before. Regardless of motives.
Understood. I just wanted to state that revenge for Pearl Harbor wasn't the United States primary motivation for dropping the bombs is all.
Yup, understood. And the appreciation was legit, not being sarcastic, as it adds to the conversation. I, too, just tried to clarify why I included it. Not a history expert at all in American history

Cheers!
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      12-11-2018, 02:21 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
1.3% isn't but 4.8% is?
What's your threshold for significance?

Let me guess: you draw the line at 4%, right?
So now you're going to argue which is more historically "Russian", Finland or Crimea?

Go ahead, knock yourself out
I'm not.

You are.

Talk about deflection though
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