[Legal Bill]

Hello everyone. I just ordered my M235i and will probably take it to the Boston chapter BMWCCA auto cross series this spring and summer. I did not order the LSD, so I'll be on the stock open e-diff.

Anyway, since the car has been out long enough for some of you to run it for a couple of seasons, do you have any advice for someone who will be running a stock car? Any handling traits I should be aware of? Tire pressures that work best? Minor mods that you would recommend?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and time.

Bill

[rwalker]

Stock, the car pushes and eats front tires. Otherwise it's a blast.

Folks running the stock staggered setup run the front tire pressure a fair bit higher than the rears to counter understeer. I recommend coding for tire pressure and temperature in iDrive so you can watch them live.

The rest of this post covers recommended mods

An LSD helps a bunch to get power down out of corners and will help preserve your rear brake pads. I have a Quaife from HP Autowerks and it's great.

F8x LCAs and/or camber plates are pretty much a must or you will munch the outer shoulders of the fronts in very short order.

Finally, consider a square setup. I run a 255/35r18 square setup and it has served me well.

Let us know how you fare and where you end up with setup.

[Legal Bill]

Thanks rwalker. A very good post. I assume you don't run in a stock class with the Quaife and the camber plates? Or perhaps you don't run in SCCA?

[rwalker]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

Thanks rwalker. A very good post. I assume you don't run in a stock class with the Quaife and the camber plates? Or perhaps you don't run in SCCA?

thanks for the spiff

yep: I run with the San Diego BMW CCA, in our "Turbo Modified" class

[Legal Bill]

You earned the spiff! While I have you, was the diff difficult to install? Also, is the dealer installed LSD inferior to the Quaife for autocrossing? I see I can get one of those for $2,000 from a vendor on this site.

[rwalker]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

You earned the spiff! While I have you, was the diff difficult to install? Also, is the dealer installed LSD inferior to the Quaife for autocrossing? I see I can get one of those for $2,000 from a vendor on this site.

I had a shop do the diff install. It was expensive. 6 or 7 hours, if I recall correctly.

I did not weigh the merits of the Quaife diff over the M Perf LSD. When I outfitted my car, the BMW option was not yet available. I take some comfort in Quaife's durability over clutch-type diffs, though. Probably just rationalization on my part

[semclane]

OP you didn't mention whether you ordered your car with the manual or automatic so my input may not apply in all cases.

Background: I came in to the BMW sphere from many years of auto crossing cars that are sort of the polar opposite of the M235i - low power and good sticking (first generation MR2 and second generation Miata). I ordered my M235i with the automatic and the M-Performance LSD.

My initial auto cross impressions were that the car has too little tire and too much body roll. Even with the PSS tires pumped up to 55/50 f/r, the tires rolled over too far and pushed something awful in the turns. You need to get all braking done before turn-in. Being smooth with inputs works a lot better than being aggressive. If you car is going to be an automatic I suggest putting the car in DSC off mode.

I have no idea what you can do and remain "stock" within your BMWCCA Chapter rules but if I assume the answer is "virtually nothing" then the best I could suggest is get a set of tires with stiffer sidewalls and softer tread (although that generally means a second set of wheels as well). You might also take the car to a good independent shop and see if they can't tweak the alignment.

Where I am at so far - I quickly abandoned "stock" and switched to the 8x17 Kosei wheels (square set up) with 245 width tires. I am currently on Dunlop Star Specs but plan to go to Bridgestones when they wear out. I had M3/4 LCAs installed to get more negative camber and got an independent shop alignment. Considering lowering the car a bit via Dinan springs. I find that I get better times if I put the car in DTC mode and pull the shift knob to the left and let the transmission shift itself.

One other thing - I found that with a helmet on the headrest pushed my head forward too much so I tried turning the headrest backwards - that didn't exactly work as I can't get the headrest out to turn it back around again and neither could the independent shop I use. I am coming up of the first BMW service and will have to see if they can fix that.

[Legal Bill]

Thanks Semclane. My car is a manual. I have autocrossed off and on over a 40 year period. I started with Ford Cortinas, Morris Minors and spent a lot of time in Bugeye Sprites. I got out of it for decades and then went back in 2002 with a Honda S2000 for about three seasons. Stopped again after 2005. I'll run this car at least a few times to get a solid understanding of the limits and handling characteristics. If I like it, I may go back to it for a bit. I'm sure I'll try at least one track day with the car. Sounds like I'll need a square tire wheel set-up if I get more serious about this. Do people go with 17 or 18 inch set-ups?

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

Thanks Semclane. My car is a manual. I have autocrossed off and on over a 40 year period. I started with Ford Cortinas, Morris Minors and spent a lot of time in Bugeye Sprites. I got out of it for decades and then went back in 2002 with a Honda S2000 for about three seasons. Stopped again after 2005. I'll run this car at least a few times to get a solid understanding of the limits and handling characteristics. If I like it, I may go back to it for a bit. I'm sure I'll try at least one track day with the car. Sounds like I'll need a square tire wheel set-up if I get more serious about this. Do people go with 17 or 18 inch set-ups?

This are light and cheap perfect for 245-40-17 all around

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Wheel...After+3%2F2014

M4 LCAs are a must else you will destroy your tire shoulders in no time

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

This are light and cheap perfect for 245-40-17 all around

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Wheel...After+3%2F2014

M4 LCAs are a must else you will destroy your tire shoulders in no time

Yes, those are the wheels I was thinking about for my snow tires and I thought they might do double duty for autocross tires. Thank you.

[wjones14]

Legal, I brought my M235i to the Palmer Motorsports track in MA this past August. Totally stock with the staggered Michelin PSS tires. It was fine for me in stock form. I was previously tracking the 2005 Mustang GT pictured in my avatar for the past decade, and the BMW was a revelation. Particularly because the Mustang was a daily driver with all season tires, and the Michelin PSS summer tires have sooooo much more grip. The torque of the 2 Series was also a revelation. The Mustang had almost equal torque - 320 versus 330 with the BMW - but the torque curve in the BMW is flat from 1400 rpm to over 4000, while the torque in the Mustang did not come on strong until almost 3000 rpm. So less need to downshift in the BMW and consequently I was always in 3rd or 4th gear at Palmer, even in the low speed 40 mph turns.

I even stuck with the stock tire pressures of 33 front and 38 rear and it was fine. The pressures increased with a few laps and the car was sticking. I didn't abuse it, but did manage a 2:03 lap and hit 126 mph on the front straight.

I would say to try the car out stock to see where you think it needs improvement based on your skill level.

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Legal, I brought my M235i to the Palmer Motorsports track in MA this past August. Totally stock with the staggered Michelin PSS tires. It was fine for me in stock form. I was previously tracking the 2005 Mustang GT pictured in my avatar for the past decade, and the BMW was a revelation. Particularly because the Mustang was a daily driver with all season tires, and the Michelin PSS summer tires have sooooo much more grip. The torque of the 2 Series was also a revelation. The Mustang had almost equal torque - 320 versus 330 with the BMW - but the torque curve in the BMW is flat from 1400 rpm to over 4000, while the torque in the Mustang did not come on strong until almost 3000 rpm. So less need to downshift in the BMW and consequently I was always in 3rd or 4th gear at Palmer, even in the low speed 40 mph turns.

I even stuck with the stock tire pressures of 33 front and 38 rear and it was fine. The pressures increased with a few laps and the car was sticking. I didn't abuse it, but did manage a 2:03 lap and hit 126 mph on the front straight.

I would say to try the car out stock to see where you think it needs improvement based on your skill level.

Great advice! It always makes sense to drive it first and spend money later. As a Mustang owner, you must have been tempted to buy the LSD or at least upset that the car did not come with it. I was cross shopping the new Mustang GT and was amazed at how much more content Ford gave you for their track package as compared to BMW's stand-alone LSD option (which costs more).

I read some of your other threads with interest this past summer as I was shopping at about the same time as you. I just could not get the BMW dealers to give me a reasonable price on the M235 until the end of the year.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

Great advice! It always makes sense to drive it first and spend money later. As a Mustang owner, you must have been tempted to buy the LSD or at least upset that the car did not come with it. I was cross shopping the new Mustang GT and was amazed at how much more content Ford gave you for their track package as compared to BMW's stand-alone LSD option (which costs more).

I read some of your other threads with interest this past summer as I was shopping at about the same time as you. I just could not get the BMW dealers to give me a reasonable price on the M235 until the end of the year.

I usually do one track day a year. If I was tracking it a half dozen or more times per year, perhaps I would feel the need to mod it with camber plates, R-compound tires, LSD, or a tune to trim a second or two from my lap times. I totally understand why the track rats want to squeeze every bit of performance they possibly can from their cars. But the stock M235i is plenty of car for my needs.

Yes, there are some posts from me in these forums where I complain about the lack of standard LSD in my $50K car. And I still would rather have one than not, if it was a free option. But after driving the car for 9 months or so before covering it for the winter, including that one day at the track, I have to say the e-diff is not as bad as I feared.

And yes, obviously the Mustang with the Performance Pack gives you much more bang for the buck than the M235i. Torsen 3.73 LSD, 435 horsepower NA V-8, big Brembos, and line-lock!

In the end I went with the M235i for a change (after so many Mustangs and Camaros), and because it's the more "grown up" option.

[Liquidpaper]

After doing this for a while, there are really only a few mods that I would really consider (if I could do it all over again):

1. LSD. I got a custom clutch type with a 3.46 rear end. The BMW MP LSD is fine though (and cheaper). Get that one.

2. Camber plates and/or M3 LCAs. Car is McPherson in the front, so you need a lot of static camber to get rid of tire munching and understeer. I run 2.50 in the front, but you could go for more. I think rwalker is running at 3+.

3. Stickier rubber/wider rubber. If you get camber plates, you can run 255/35 section square on your car. Helps a lot. Also, that size is much easier to find from more manufacturers.

4. If you REALLY want to do a suspension mod, maybe do sway bars. The bars aren't expensive, but oh my god the labor is. You need to drop your front and rear subframes to install. Great upgrade, but huge pain in the ass.

5. Brakes. The stock hardware is just fine, but you should do pads, lines, and fluid. I'm on EBC Yellowstuffs, stainless lines, and ATE 200 fluid. Makes a big difference

I would not do the springs unless you are going to go for coilovers or a spring/shock combo. Usually does more harm than good unless you do both at the same time.

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

After doing this for a while, there are really only a few mods that I would really consider (if I could do it all over again):

1. LSD. I got a custom clutch type with a 3.46 rear end. The BMW MP LSD is fine though (and cheaper). Get that one.

2. Camber plates and/or M3 LCAs. Car is McPherson in the front, so you need a lot of static camber to get rid of tire munching and understeer. I run 2.50 in the front, but you could go for more. I think rwalker is running at 3+.

3. Stickier rubber/wider rubber. If you get camber plates, you can run 255/35 section square on your car. Helps a lot. Also, that size is much easier to find from more manufacturers.

4. If you REALLY want to do a suspension mod, maybe do sway bars. The bars aren't expensive, but oh my god the labor is. You need to drop your front and rear subframes to install. Great upgrade, but huge pain in the ass.

5. Brakes. The stock hardware is just fine, but you should do pads, lines, and fluid. I'm on EBC Yellowstuffs, stainless lines, and ATE 200 fluid. Makes a big difference

I would not do the springs unless you are going to go for coilovers or a spring/shock combo. Usually does more harm than good unless you do both at the same time.

Great post. thanks. any advantage between camber plates and LCAs? Cost versus adjustability? Ease of installation?

[rwalker]

LCAs are nice in that geometry stays consistent under load owing to the stronger bushing. They're also basically set and forget, OEM quiet and reliable.

LCAs cannot help with fender clearance on wider tires, though. In fact, they make the situation worse. For anything wider than 245 up front you need camber plates.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by rwalker

LCAs are nice in that geometry stays consistent under load owing to the stronger bushing. They're also basically set and forget, OEM quiet and reliable.

LCAs cannot help with fender clearance on wider tires, though. In fact, they make the situation worse. For anything wider than 245 up front you need camber plates.

adding to this.... they are cheaper, also easier and cheaper to install and they don't make extra noise...

on the downside they are fixed so no adjustability

[i8ur911]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

Hello everyone. I just ordered my M235i and will probably take it to the Boston chapter BMWCCA auto cross series this spring and summer. I did not order the LSD, so I'll be on the stock open e-diff.

Anyway, since the car has been out long enough for some of you to run it for a couple of seasons, do you have any advice for someone who will be running a stock car? Any handling traits I should be aware of? Tire pressures that work best? Minor mods that you would recommend?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and time.

Bill

Bill,
I run my 228i MSport THP with Boston BMWCCA. The car is tons of fun. These are all great posts. Feel free to chat me up about what I've done to my car (it's been through a bunch of changes).

You can also email me at jason@turnermotorsport.com.

Cheers!

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by i8ur911

Bill,
I run my 228i MSport THP with Boston BMWCCA. The car is tons of fun. These are all great posts. Feel free to chat me up about what I've done to my car (it's been through a bunch of changes).

You can also email me at jason@turnermotorsport.com.

Cheers!

Thanks Jason!

[Legal Bill]

Well, I just bought a set of four Koesi K4R 17x8 wheels. They will serve as my winter snow tire wheel and then in the summer, I will use them for autocross and track day wheels. Even if I don't do much autocrossing or tracking, I'll get my use out of them in the winter.

I figure the first autocross I go to will be on the stock set-up. If I feel like I want to keep doing it, I'll buy a set of square tires for the Koseis.

[Legal Bill]

The wheels arrived yesterday and I am very pleased with this purchase. They look very serious and well worth the money. I laughed several times reading the warranty card that came with each wheel. The company needs someone with a little more experience with the English language. I'm hoping these wheels will fit on my 330i as I want to switch over the snow tires now and get rid of my old snow-tire wheels. That way when the new car arrives I'll be all ready to switch out the tires on both cars.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

The wheels arrived yesterday and I am very pleased with this purchase. They look very serious and well worth the money. I laughed several times reading the warranty card that came with each wheel. The company needs someone with a little more experience with the English language. I'm hoping these wheels will fit on my 330i as I want to switch over the snow tires now and get rid of my old snow-tire wheels. That way when the new car arrives I'll be all ready to switch out the tires on both cars.

They are great and specially super light!!!