[H2O_Doc]

Much of my work is in climate change. This thread makes me realize that climate is a comparatively less controversial topic and one less prone to caca.

It has been, in places, an interesting thread however.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by damianbmw12

Ah nice to get back on topic.

Let us...hope...that it remains that way.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Let us...hope...that it remains that way.

No. Where is the fun in that?

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by damianbmw12

Ah nice to get back on topic. I have E46 330 and had an E46 M3 both MT and RWD. I've not owned an Autotrans other than trucks since my first car long ago. And it was miserable. Since then cars were all MT. I went to test drive the M240 and all they had was Auto. After the test drive I said to the sales guy "wow that's an amazing trans and amazing car. I love how it hooked up through corners" I asked if he had the AWD version just out of curiosity. He said "you just test drove it." I ordered one in Long Beach Blue soon after. my wife still loves MT so often drives the 330 vs her Auto truck. I actually am liking getting away from the tiresome 3rd pedal. (I expect to be flamed by the diehards for this comment)

Despite what I say about MT fetishists, I adored MT when I learnt to drive as a kid. But like yourself I got tired of the 3rd pedal.

To each their own. I can totally see the appeal.

[Maynard]

Used to be that MT was the only real option for performance; AT were just awful and slow, and usually 3 speeds; all that stuff about "slushboxes" and "disconnected from the machine" were actually understatements . Now that they have their act together, especially the gem in the 2ers, it really is just a matter of style.

And of course the fact that every time you depress the clutch, a puppy dies.

[cristo]

Well, if you let it crawl around free and
get under the pedals it does.

[damianbmw12]

Originally Posted by cristo

Well, if you let it crawl around free and
get under the pedals it does.

And I got 29.5 MPG 82 MPH this weekend. Highway driving of course. Not bad for heavy AWD car with Auto.

[AleksanderSuave]

Curious if AWD truly is that unnecessary..then why would it sell?

Or is the waves of people sticking to RWD vocal because its clear that their preference is in the minority of choice?

The thing is..if AWD was that 'unnecessary' for these vehicles, why would people keep buying it?

If I (or anyone else) went from a RWD BMW (or any other brand) to an AWD one, and saw no noticeable difference, why would they rebuy an AWD model? Why would the number of vehicles with AWD continue to increase?

There are fads, and there are genuine safety features.

Fad: hand signals while driving
safety feature: voice commands

for what is supposed to be a sophisticated customer base, we have an incredible amount of people who stick to outdated beliefs like gospel.

Lots of things were done "one way" for long periods of time, because they were the ONLY way of doing it, regardless of safety features.

A gas stove presents obvious safety issues that an electric or induction cooktop simply doesnt. Gas stoves have a "preference" amongst most too. Nobody NEEDS induction either, until 20 years from now they'll call us cavemen for letting kids burn their hands on the stove out of curiousity.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

Curious if AWD truly is that unnecessary..then why would it sell?

The thing is..if AWD was that 'unnecessary' for these vehicles, why would people keep buying it?

I suspect it's because that's all that's on the showroom floor when the average buyer walks into their local dealership anywhere in the northern half of the country.

It's not like FWD/RWD drivers were wrecking their cars en masse from 1900-2010 just because they didn't have AWD. Heck, think of the truly awful (compared to today) tires that were on those cars for most of those decades.

I'm fairly certain that the tires my family drove around on in Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota in the 1950s wouldn't be allowed to be sold in this country today. And yet, there we were, driving 365 days a year in what was frequently pretty brutal weather. Often this was on stretches of rural highway with 50-80 miles between towns and infrequent traffic that might come along to help you out of the ditch. Dad's solution: stay out of the ditch!

In some ways, AWD has become like sunroofs. IOW, try finding a BMW without one. Do buyers need sunroofs? Well, some feel strongly that they do, of course, and they too can be vocal about it.

It's fine either way, although a bit of a pain to have to order the car and wait just so it doesn't have a sunroof. Or AWD. Or an automatic transmission. New car enthusiasts wishing for a relative lack of features will continue to persevere until the cars we desire are no longer available.

At that point, we'll move on to just keeping what we have, buying something older that we like, switching over to a P-car, or whatever. It's all good.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I'm fairly certain that the tires my family drove around on in Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota in the 1950s wouldn't be allowed to be sold in this country today. And yet, there we were, driving 365 days a year in what was frequently pretty brutal weather.

So you're saying you're against evolving technology and advanced safety features? For a long time, cars didn't have seatbelts or airbags; based on your tire argument, I would assume you'd advocate eliminating those features because your parents and grandparents cars weren't equipped with those either.


Of course, I am being sarcastic. I' sure you realize that while it was possible to drive safely on the tires of 50 years ago, modern tires are much safer.

I drove for a long time without back-up cameras and PDC. I took, and still take, great pride in my ability to maneuver a car in tight spaces and pack cars into a driveway so closely that not even a mouse has enough room to walk between them without back-up cameras and PDC. I never saw the point or need of either of these systems, and never wanted either. I only ordered the back-up camera thinking of resale value (as 2017 was the last year they were not mandatory in the US and I didn't want my car to be one of the only cars on the road without one in 2027) and PDC came in the package with the camera. However, despite the fact that PDC is not (yet) mandatory, I will never buy a car without it again.

New doesn't (always) mean bad, and old doesn't (always) mean better.


By the way, I love the advice of "Stay out of the ditch!" Sounds like my advice to my kids about skiing: Just don't hit the trees. (Still doesn't mean I don't wear a helmet these days, even though I was on skis for 20+ years without one).

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by harma24

New doesn't (always) mean bad, and old doesn't (always) mean better.

As Walter Cronkite would have said: "And that's the way it is."

Of course, he would also have said "New doesn't (always) mean better, and old doesn't (always) mean bad."

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

Curious if AWD truly is that unnecessary..then why would it sell?

Because most people would rather change their tires every four years when they wear them out than every six months all while constantly having to store a winter set. And to be fair to people as a whole...yeah. That's a hell of a lot easier.

I dont disagree with your post for the most part and while i don't think it's strictly necessary, AWD IS a feature that people have proven they're happy to pay thousands of dollars for. It is better 85 percent of the time and that 10 percent that it's not, is only going to be noticed by the die hard enthusiasts who are pushing their cars to the limit (The missing 5 percent goes to fuel economy, which is universally appreciated by everyone and worse with AWD.)

All wheel drive is, generally speaking good. But it also gets heavily marketed and in my opinion people as a whole probably think its more necessary than it actually is.

I say this as someone who has owned and loved both all-wheel drive cars and rear-wheel drive cars.

[The_otherM235i]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Wait until the "Its not a real "M" car discussions start back up.

Is it a real M? 😉😭

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

Curious if AWD truly is that unnecessary..then why would it sell?

Or is the waves of people sticking to RWD vocal because its clear that their preference is in the minority of choice?

The thing is..if AWD was that 'unnecessary' for these vehicles, why would people keep buying it?

If I (or anyone else) went from a RWD BMW (or any other brand) to an AWD one, and saw no noticeable difference, why would they rebuy an AWD model? Why would the number of vehicles with AWD continue to increase?

There are fads, and there are genuine safety features.

Fad: hand signals while driving
safety feature: voice commands

for what is supposed to be a sophisticated customer base, we have an incredible amount of people who stick to outdated beliefs like gospel.

Lots of things were done "one way" for long periods of time, because they were the ONLY way of doing it, regardless of safety features.

A gas stove presents obvious safety issues that an electric or induction cooktop simply doesnt. Gas stoves have a "preference" amongst most too. Nobody NEEDS induction either, until 20 years from now they'll call us cavemen for letting kids burn their hands on the stove out of curiousity.

Respectfully, I would challenge your premise. All that sells is not necessarily of value or satisfies the supposed reason for its existence. Your premise does not seem to allow for the human fraility of being susceptible to "conventional wisdom"/"common knowledge". For a more extreme example than we are discussing here, watch how and what people buy in so-called "health stores" with unregulated, unsubstantiated supplements based on no clinical trials or other data. They just "know" that, for example, vitamin C will prevent whatever...and not just waste money while producing expensive urine. The less the actual technical data one has, the more, it seems, people are willing to accept what they believe most people know, and buy in to the story.

In this case, the reason AWD sells (in addition to the valid point made about dealer inventory) runs parallel to why SUVs are dominating the market. In the past recent decades, SUVs increasingly were positioned as go-anywhere, do anything, rugged, and implicitly, safe vehicles for a variety of environments. The halo effect that has caused simply tall cars to be regarded as small SUVs has also endowed the AWD drivetrain with magical powers to some. Consider some anecdotal experience from the upper midwest where drivers who slam on their brakes on a snowy surface, only to either hit something or find themselves in a ditch, report, mystified, "But I have 4 wheel drive!" Somehow, this was supposed to keep them safe, even as they have no understanding that braking is totally unrelated to AWD function. They may not even have considered that they were on inadequate tires...that has not been the target of such aggressive marketing, as the potential profitablilty for the OEM is not a great. AWD/4WD has been sold as a panacea, good for all that might worry one about getting anywhere safely and securely, no matter that most general population owners cannot explain why or how. They just know it is "good". Do a review of the last decade or so of advertising, watching Jeeps and others plowing through snow across beaches, up over rocks. "If it can do that, it will certainly keep me secure wherever I go!" I've heard words similar to this when conducting focus groups.

Upon arrival at the dealership, that thought is certainly reinforced. Profit margin is at stake. But, try to recall the last salesperson who spoke about having proper tires for the season. Unlikely that you can. As well, there is much social support among other similarly unknowledgeable friends and family for the "well known" benefit and safety of having AWD. This builds to a critical mass, and suddenly, going without AWD may be seen as foolhardy and risky.

In the end, the old story persists....follow the money. The market has been "sold", and when the sale includes convincing the masses that their safety is involved, dollars will be spent, and a trend is born.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Respectfully, I would challenge your premise. All that sells is not necessarily of value or satisfies the supposed reason for its existence. Your premise does not seem to allow for the human fraility of being susceptible to "conventional wisdom"/"common knowledge". For a more extreme example than we are discussing here, watch how and what people buy in so-called "health stores" with unregulated, unsubstantiated supplements based on no clinical trials or other data. They just "know" that, for example, vitamin C will prevent whatever...and not just waste money while producing expensive urine. The less the actual technical data one has, the more, it seems, people are willing to accept what they believe most people know, and buy in to the story.

In this case, the reason AWD sells (in addition to the valid point made about dealer inventory) runs parallel to why SUVs are dominating the market. In the past recent decades, SUVs increasingly were positioned as go-anywhere, do anything, rugged, and implicitly, safe vehicles for a variety of environments. The halo effect that has caused simply tall cars to be regarded as small SUVs has also endowed the AWD drivetrain with magical powers to some. Consider some anecdotal experience from the upper midwest where drivers who slam on their brakes on a snowy surface, only to either hit something or find themselves in a ditch, report, mystified, "But I have 4 wheel drive!" Somehow, this was supposed to keep them safe, even as they have no understanding that braking is totally unrelated to AWD function. They may not even have considered that they were on inadequate tires...that has not been the target of such aggressive marketing, as the potential profitablilty for the OEM is not a great. AWD/4WD has been sold as a panacea, good for all that might worry one about getting anywhere safely and securely, no matter that most general population owners cannot explain why or how. They just know it is "good". Do a review of the last decade or so of advertising, watching Jeeps and others plowing through snow across beaches, up over rocks. "If it can do that, it will certainly keep me secure wherever I go!" I've heard words similar to this when conducting focus groups.

Upon arrival at the dealership, that thought is certainly reinforced. Profit margin is at stake. But, try to recall the last salesperson who spoke about having proper tires for the season. Unlikely that you can. As well, there is much social support among other similarly unknowledgeable friends and family for the "well known" benefit and safety of having AWD. This builds to a critical mass, and suddenly, going without AWD may be seen as foolhardy and risky.

In the end, the old story persists....follow the money. The market has been "sold", and when the sale includes convincing the masses that their safety is involved, dollars will be spent, and a trend is born.

Jokes aside, this meme is pretty damn accurate! I feel like a tiger in my AWD. Trend or not.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by The_otherM235i

Is it a real M? 😉😭

I miss those "Is this a real M? OMGBBQ BMW M brand dilution" threads

I was sad when this thread died off... but tonight was awesome! It finally crossed the page count of the previous "RWD is just as good if not better guyzz" thread with even greater logic leaps and even more "back in my days" anecdotes.

We are now even slipping into the territory of calling AWD as "but a mere trend for the simple minded".

I love these threads

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

We are now even slipping into the territory of calling AWD as "but a mere trend for the simple minded".

Before this goes any further off-course, that was not what I wrote so your quotation marks would be erroneous. There are perfectly legitimate reasons why an informed buyer (~5-10% of the general population) would want and benefit from AWD, such as climactic conditions or having a sufficiently powerful vehicle that performance is enhanced by splitting the torque among 4 vs 2 tires.

But, that was not the most recent issue. The question to which I responded regarded why AWD sells generally, which would be primarily to buyers who do not have such technical understanding. They don't seek high performance vehicles, don't read forums, and most likely don't know forums exist. They put the little stick next to the "D" and go where they need. My discussion indicated they were uninformed and therefore, naively susceptible to external marketing persuasion, not "simple minded". There are likely other product categories for which most of us would be similarly receptive. How the vehicle buyers I described would behave if and when they were more highly educated on the technical issues is unknown. Meanwhile, that does answer much of the question of why AWD systems generally sell well overall in the industry.

[XutvJet]

Most all sports cars are RWD. The typical sports car recipe has historically been an engine in the front driving the rear tires and the chassis being two doors and 2 to 4 seats. Sure, there are mid and rear engine exceptions.

BMW markets this car with AWD because they don't have a ton of models so they make all sorts of varying models to make something for everyone and it's damaged the brand. You can't be everything to everyone. Offering AWD in the car variants makes the company more money. Simple as that.

When I tell non-car people that my RWD M235 has around 430hp/450tq, they inevitably ask what I drive in the snow and I point to my car. They act like it's an impossible feat to drive in the snow with RWD. LOL. Automakers have done one hell of a job marketing the perceived safety of AWD.

Don't get me wrong, AWD and 4WD have their place. My wife has had many Subarus over the past 20 years. I love the capability but we use that capability off road for our travels. In a sports car though? No thanks.

[aerobod]

Of all the AWD, FWD and RWD cars I’ve owned, this is still my favourite car for winter driving:

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Of all the AWD, FWD and RWD cars I’ve owned, this is still my favourite car for winter driving:

Do you have snow tires on that beast? Given the background of that photo, that would be the only car one would want in a place like that. Damn that looks like fun!

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Do you have snow tires on that beast? Given the background of that photo, that would be the only car one would want in a place like that. Damn that looks like fun!

Sottozero II 225/45-18 tyres all around, essential for stopping and turning in the -30C conditions when the photo was taken a few years ago. Unfortunately only brief donuts possible there while “parking”, as it was the car park at work with Security watching on the cameras.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Most all sports cars are RWD. The typical sports car recipe has historically been an engine in the front driving the rear tires and the chassis being two doors and 2 to 4 seats. Sure, there are mid and rear engine exceptions.

BMW markets this car with AWD because they don't have a ton of models so they make all sorts of varying models to make something for everyone and it's damaged the brand. You can't be everything to everyone. Offering AWD in the car variants makes the company more money. Simple as that.

When I tell non-car people that my RWD M235 has around 430hp/450tq, they inevitably ask what I drive in the snow and I point to my car. They act like it's an impossible feat to drive in the snow with RWD. LOL. Automakers have done one hell of a job marketing the perceived safety of AWD.

Don't get me wrong, AWD and 4WD have their place. My wife has had many Subarus over the past 20 years. I love the capability but we use that capability off road for our travels. In a sports car though? No thanks.

Eventually most sports cars will be AWD. They are already. I promise you that. Just like manuals are going the way of the dodo, RWD is the next one on the chopping block, along with the internal combustion engine.

With high torque effortless go-fast electrics with none of that tranny bullshit, AWD makes perfect sense. Splitting torque makes perfect sense. You will be safer, and go faster, quicker.

You have 430 to the wheel right? I am sure you must be an excellent driver but imagine car makers putting that kind of hp/torque in the hands of the lead-footed general public.

With faster, more powerful cars with tons of torque, RWD will stop making sense, just like the slower manuals are bowing out.