[M Smurf]

THoughts on the DRIVE EXPERIENCE between the Manual trans of 228/230i and a GTI?

[freakystyly]

Not exactly the same but Mk7 Golf R vs F22 240i. I think for this discussion they are nearly identical.

I'm obviously more used to the BMW now but... The Golf has a feather light clutch vs the BMW.

I think both are helped a bit by a clutch stop from long pedal movement, personal preference.

I think the VW was able to drive smoothly easier, but the BMW is easier for driving angry or more forceful, if that makes sense.

[Belgarion3211]

I came from a 2016 bought in 2015. it was one of the first 16 2 door SE GTI with DCC and the diff and last, as the 2 doors died in 2017. I can't really tell that much of a difference between my GTI and the 2020 230i with the track pack and 6spd man.. They both are very amazing cars to drive. The GTI was more practical. My GTI was chipped and had lowering springs, not craz, just so the wheels filled the wheel wells .. the engine feels lazy without it.
The GTI handled amazingly well. Enough that I would go back to either the GTI or the R. I will say im disappointed in the 230i when it comes to in car tech. the GTI was way ahead .. much better stereo, much better infotainment system. and android auto and carplay as standard.. the infotainment system was better in every aspect.

Driving them isn't a big difference except for one thing taking off from a light. the 230i is much better to launch than the front drive GTI. Around corners they feel very similar. the Diff on the GTI really pulled it around nicely and it really had some amazing grip. (granted I also put Micheline ps4s on it.)
Both the GTI and my 230i have adjustable suspension but vw's was quite a bit better for 1 it remembered my settings.. if I set it in sport mode or independent mode and put my settings in it remember them. the bmw always goes back to a default.

the GTI is more usable for every day stuff I could put 2 bikes in the hatch and close it.. granted I fold down the rear seat but it was easy. .

I wanted a rear wheel drive manual before they completely disappeared. the 230i is a lot of fun to drive and does have a few things that sets it apart from the GTI, like oversteer. but they aren't as far apart as I thought they would be when I did it. both are very fun cars

[M Smurf]

I've been casually looking for a well optioned manual 230 M sport and there's been very few available and not interested in 235 or 240. GTIs are a dime a dozen however! Appreciate the info!

[Belgarion3211]

I agree with you. I went for a well optioned manual. and happened to get the last of the trackpack models the only thing it was really missing was the upgraded stereo. and I do have to say for as expensive as bmw is, they have the worst stereo systems of any car I have had in the last 20 years nearly.. its a shame.

[flypenfly]

FWD vs RWD is a much bigger difference when you're driving hard than manual vs auto. On auto-x or at the track or even at a canyon run, RWD can make you feel like a minor driving god while FWD typically is just a 'wow, this is pretty competent for fwd'.

[M Smurf]

Any other examples of a fun car with available manual? There's MINI I guess. Or Miata. Styling doesn't get me like the germans

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by M Smurf

Any other examples of a fun car with available manual? There's MINI I guess. Or Miata. Styling doesn't get me like the germans

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/f...-nissan-z.html

I'd do this long before anything from VAG. More likely to stay away from the service department.

[Belgarion3211]

Can we stop doing the vag products are unreliable. Its rich coming from bmw owners. My last 3 vag products were extremely reliable a 2003 20th ae jazz blue gti a 2007 gti and my 16 gti.
The Nissan I had, before the 2003 GTI.had the engine replaced because it sucked the intake manifold gasket through the engine. the Toyota I had before that had transmission and clutch problems good old 2000 Celica GTS. and a 97 Honda Civic kept warping front rotors. it happens to all brands but vw has been very solid since about the 2003 Mark.
Look at the n54 engine and how many problems it had and the timing chain issues of the n20. Sure the b series engines are a lot better . VW has come a long ways as have all manufactures. to sit and call any of them unreliable at this point is a little strange. Except for maybe fiat or LandRover you can call them unreliable.

And as for FWD vs RWD the GTI Veloster N and Civic Type R may have some things to say about that. the best of the fwds can keep up with most of the rwds in a lot of things.. is it totally ideal no.. its not. but surprisingly they are getting very good.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Belgarion3211

Can we stop doing the vag products are unreliable. Its rich coming from bmw owners. ...VW has come a long ways as have all manufactures. to sit and call any of them unreliable at this point is a little strange.

No, we cannot, and thank you for the opportunity to respond further. The reason we now have 3 BMWAG products is partially the reaction to a disastrous 2016 Audi 3.0T Prestige, which was recent enough not to be at all "strange" to report. My wife fell for the Audi "pretty face", forgetting "beauty is only skin deep." Paid $60k+ for that sorry example of poor quality. We soon had problems with various electrical features, none of which were repaired. The transmission behavior was poor and resulted in being told they were getting a lot of owner complaints about that for the 2016 year, but there was no fix. Then, at low mileage, the brake rotors warped. Replacing rotors is not a big deal, but being denied warranty for an 18 month old car because brakes are "not covered" was absurd. Then, the final straw, the Audi dealer tech told us he was told to alter the repair order to support the denial and report that the problem was not just a warped rotor but was due to owner "usage" although he said to me, personally, that there was no such actual evidence of a usage problem (pad transfer). From poor quality and lack of vehicle development to dishonesty, no, I do not stop. I share my experience with anyone about to consider a vehicle from the first OEM to ever have their CEO in jail, which tells us something about their culture that helps produce their products.

We dumped the car in 2018 at quite a loss, but good riddance.

I guess this touched a nerve for you, as your reply did for me. If the reports on VAG were not so widespread, I'm guessing you would have just passed my post by? VAG has indeed come long way....but in which direction? Our Scirocco from decades ago was just fine. And, all interactions seemed to at least be based on honesty. I'll never spend a nickel again with any VAG brand and hope that some/any/even one other learn(s) from my experience.

Have a great day!

[USA-RET]

We love our Mini S w/ a JCW tune....and it's a lot more German than you think.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

We love our Mini S w/ a JCW tune....and it's a lot more German than you think.

Yes, one of our three BMWAG products is a MINI Countryman S from the BMW UKL2 platform, shared with other BMW-branded products. Since 2018, it's been outstanding!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Our Scirocco from decades ago was just fine.

My old man had a Scirocco back in the mid-70s. He loved it. What I remember most about that car was how little it weighed - something like 1850#, IIRC. Crazy, and so much fun to toss around on Colorado back roads. Twenty-five years later he bought an NB Miata so he could relive his experience with the Scirocco.

Influenced by his love of VW's products, I bought a used '75 Rabbit in '77. It was good for getting around when I was living in San Francisco. That car did have one issue that was a problem in a hilly city (I lived on a hill so steep we parked perpendicular to the curb): the Rabbit didn't like shifting into reverse. As in, most of the time it flat wouldn't do it unless you could first get the car moving - ideally backwards!

I'd gone to high school with the owner of my independent shop and could always rely upon him for the straight stuff when I was having an odd issue with one of my cars. His verdict was "Yeah, they do that, and there's no fix for it. Next time, do yourself a favor, and call me before you buy a used car."

I didn't follow that advice, which later led to my buying a used '77 E12 530i, a car model that reliably warped its heads at ~60K. That was a $2K repair in 1983. Same thing again..."Yeah, they do that..."

Cars! Geez...

[Gilles79]

My first car was a used '76 Rabbit. I had a blast tearing around in that thing!
We currently own a '16 VW Touareg and other than a blocked drain causing water to pool onto the passenger side mat, it has been faultless. It is great for long distance touring, it has been to Florida a number of times.

[Belgarion3211]

[QUOTE=Sportstick;28180306]No, we cannot, and thank you for the opportunity to respond further. .

I guess this touched a nerve for you, as your reply did for me. If the reports on VAG were not so widespread, I'm guessing you would have just passed my post by? VAG has indeed come long way....but in which direction?

So I had 3 GTI's with no problems at all. But my 07 BMW was nothing but problems a 335i coupe with the N54 engine. I also got rid of it as a loss as well. But with the new versions of the engine I looked into them again. . Just because you had one car that may have had issues and you hear "far and wide" about others, have you looked into BMW??? they also have far and wide issues. so does Merc. If overall you don't want a car with "far and wide" as you say you buy a Toyota.

I personally now over maintenance my cars. I would go back to a VAG car with no hesitation at all. As my last 3 treated me so well and all were so fun to drive. AND if this. My current bmw is any indication I would buy another BMW.

But you are right .. it should be a good day..