[serrated]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I'm a scientist and engineer as my career (20 years in the field). I've also been modding and racing cars since the late 1990s. I'm fully aware of how these things work and read countless forum posts (not just BMW) from both the owners and people like yourself saying the same exact things as yourself.

Go install one on your car and report back. Otherwise, you have no basis as YOU have not experienced how a 2 series drives with the device. Hopefully others will see through this and not solely rely on your lack of experience. I've datalogged how these things work with my Torque App. You haven't.

I removed and sold the device because I didn't like the way it made my 6MT drive in 1st. I wouldn't recommend it to someone that wants to preserve the throttle linearity at light application when starting 1st with a 6MT. The device does something wonky to idle setting when you're applying very light throttle and clutch release to start out. The DME does some sort of learning as time goes on and the issue gets worse and worse as time goes on. This issue also clearly shows that the DME adjusts other parameters as it tries to make sense of the throttle which bunks your own argument.

I can't speak to the automatic because I've never driven an M235 auto with this device. I'm as honest as it comes when reviewing mods and only speak from personnel experience.

I put one on my Audi R8. It was shit. It does exactly what I said these things do. If you believe that it does anything beyond intercepting and remapping the pedal position value, you're wrong.

From one engineer to another, quit the proliferation of the snake oil.

Now that doesn't mean people won't get use out of it. Some people want comfort or sport to have a similar feel to what sport+ does. These devices can do exactly that.

But that's all they can do. If you want actual faster response not related to the actual pedal depression speed, that has to be done inside the ECU.

EDIT: Also, this is so standard and obvious that I can't believe someone who is actually an engineer would believe otherwise. I also live in the KC area. Want to place a friendly wager? We'll break out the four channel scope. We'll plot the output on the scope. I can pull a pedal from a scrapyard car and show you all that is inside: two potentiometers. (they use mean value of both for a more accurate value since they need to be smooth and accurate) We'll then hook up a pedalbox. We'll plot the values on the other two channels. (my keysight scope has four channels which will be perfect for this) If you think you're right, let's put some money on this.

[hwntime]

I've read about both sides of the argument extensively before making the purchase as mentioned in my first post. Bottom line for me is that it works. It simply works and is worth $200 for sure. If I had to choose only one between this or the Dinan Sport Tune I currently have on my car, I'd take the Remus Responder without a doubt. It made a much more noticeable difference in drive feel than the Dinan Sport did. It makes driving in the city fun. To each their own though. You can believe in them or not, but I definitely like it and feel it was money well spent. That's just me though.

[serrated]

Originally Posted by hwntime

I've read about both sides of the argument extensively before making the purchase as mentioned in my first post. Bottom line for me is that it works. It simply works and is worth $200 for sure. If I had to choose only one between this or the Dinan Sport Tune I currently have on my car, I'd take the Remus Responder without a doubt. It made a much more noticeable difference in drive feel than the Dinan Sport did. It makes driving in the city fun. To each their own though. You can believe in them or not, but I definitely like it.

And that's perfectly fine and awesome and I'm glad that you and others have gotten good use out of it.

My beef is with people believing it does more than remapping pedal position value. That's just not true.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by serrated

The import thing here to pay attention to: the pedal is literally just a fancy joystick. Like the joystick on your xbox controller..

Thanks for the intricate explanation, I was thinking this but I just couldn't articulate it..

Not to rain on anyone's parade, I'm pretty sure this device makes the throttle feel lively but all it's doing is tricking the sensor in believing you're pressing the pedal further/faster than you actually are.

There is no other way to increase the throttle response any more than the computer allows, as a result of the electronic bottleneck.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Thanks for the intricate explanation, I was thinking this but I just couldn't articulate it..

Not to rain on anyone's parade, I'm pretty sure this device makes the throttle feel lively but all it's doing is tricking the sensor in believing you're pressing the pedal further/faster than you actually are.

There is no other way to increase the throttle response any more than the computer allows, as a result of the electronic bottleneck.

Nope, there is a big difference between mashing the pedal down and this controller. Prior to installing it, I'd floor my gas pedal and there was always this lag for the throttle to kick in. Now, it's instantaneous and the car gets accelerating quicker. I can't explain it any differently, but it just works. Lag is TOTALLY gone.

[serrated]

Originally Posted by hwntime

Nope, there is a big difference between mashing the pedal down and this controller. Prior to installing it, I'd floor my gas pedal and there was always this lag for the throttle to kick in. Now, it's instantaneous and the car gets accelerating quicker. I can't explain it any differently, but it just works. Lag is TOTALLY gone.

that's not how it works, but it can feel that way. most manufacturers actually do this from the factory to trick people into making their car feel faster to them than it really is. subaru is bad about this lately. Cobb even has a stock tune map that has the throttle remapped to something normal because the factory subaru throttle map is a trigger. (about like sport+ on bimmers but that's how it is ALL the time)

does your remapper have a bypass mode? if so, show us some proof. from a stop, go a run with your remapper on, and run to 30 mph. then either remove it or disable it with bypass mode if it has one, then go to sport+, then do the same exact run. (with gopro pointed at your instrument cluster) you might be surprised by the results

Edit: and by run I mean floor it as fast as you can on both runs

[thezelies]

I really like the device fooling me into thinking
I’m enjoying the response of my throttle. I
Bought the Responder knowing exactly what it does.
And it was very much worth it. Thanks a bunch to the OP!

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by thezelies

I really like the device fooling me into thinking
I’m enjoying the response of my throttle. I
Bought the Responder knowing exactly what it does.
And it was very much worth it. Thanks a bunch to the OP!

Yup, these were the exact arguments from both sides I read about prior to buying. I was hesitant and very skeptical but took the chance and I'm glad I did. It's hard to describe how much more fun it makes driving until you actually experience it for yourself. It is not even REMOTELY close to flooring the gas pedal. Of course there will be the naysayers and the believers. Unfortunately, 99% of the naysayers never experienced it first hand. serrated is the exception and he knows what he's talking about, but I know what I feel and I'm happy with it and that's all that matters.

[serrated]

I have several friends with them and they love them. Nothing wrong with that. Just know what you're getting and don't let people lie to you about what the devices actually do. Their simplicity is what makes them so easy to make, hence why everyone and their mother makes one now. You take $5 worth of hardware and sell it for $200+. I literally have everything I need to make one of these in my mancave other than the connectors, and it would take very very little code. Could make for an interesting youtube video. Hmm...

[hwntime]

@serrated maybe you can shed some light in lay terms on these videos? I'm not an engineer, nor do I claim to know anything about these except for the fact that I love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59UsUbvr84

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL1LOh-NZXU

[serrated]

Originally Posted by hwntime

@serrated maybe you can shed some light in lay terms on these videos? I'm not an engineer, nor do I claim to know anything about these except for the fact that I love it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59UsUbvr84

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL1LOh-NZXU

First video: Watch how slowly they push the pedal. If they would've slammed it down, the TB would've opened just as quickly.

And you might ask why it seemed like the throttle body was delayed in relation to the pedal. That's a good question. ECU's don't only consider the actual throttle position. They also take into effect how quickly you push it. Good example of this: in a car with an automatic, if you slam the pedal as quickly as you can, it'll downshift. If you roll into it but still floor it, it'll often not downshift. They gauge how quickly you need to go depending on how quickly you push the pedal down. If you push it lightly, you obviously aren't in a rush. If you slam it, you're obviously wanting to boogie.

So how does that relate to the pedal box? On their 9 setting it's to where only the top 10% of the pedal or so actually does anything. So, when they barely have the pedal pushed in, the ECU says holy crap they're already floored, and it opens the TB more quickly.

The thing is, if you slam the pedal down without the unit, it has teh same effect. They obvious aren't going to do that for a demo to sell their product lol as you can see by how slowly they push the pedal down.

I really need to buy a pedal and make a youtube video and demonstrate the science behind it.

EDIT: disregard on comment on the second video; didn't watch whole thing. now that i'm watching it that's not the case. let me finish watching it real quick

EDIT2: ok i watched the full second video and I still don't get the point of it. a regular pedal without the pedalbox would have the same effect if you slammed the pedal down quickly.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by serrated

First video: Watch how slowly they push the pedal. If they would've slammed it down, the TB would've opened just as quickly.

And you might ask why it seemed like the throttle body was delayed in relation to the pedal. That's a good question. ECU's don't only consider the actual throttle position. They also take into effect how quickly you push it. Good example of this: in a car with an automatic, if you slam the pedal as quickly as you can, it'll downshift. If you roll into it but still floor it, it'll often not downshift. They gauge how quickly you need to go depending on how quickly you push the pedal down. If you push it lightly, you obviously aren't in a rush. If you slam it, you're obviously wanting to boogie.

So how does that relate to the pedal box? On their 9 setting it's to where only the top 10% of the pedal or so actually does anything. So, when they barely have the pedal pushed in, the ECU says holy crap they're already floored, and it opens the TB more quickly.

The thing is, if you slam the pedal down without the unit, it has teh same effect. They obvious aren't going to do that for a demo to sell their product lol as you can see by how slowly they push the pedal down.

I really need to buy a pedal and make a youtube video and demonstrate the science behind it.

EDIT: disregard on first video; didn't watch whole thing. now that i'm watching it that's not the case. let me finish watching it real quick

Thanks for the explanation in layman's terms.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by serrated

I put one on my Audi R8. It was shit. It does exactly what I said these things do. If you believe that it does anything beyond intercepting and remapping the pedal position value, you're wrong.

From one engineer to another, quit the proliferation of the snake oil.

Now that doesn't mean people won't get use out of it. Some people want comfort or sport to have a similar feel to what sport+ does. These devices can do exactly that.

But that's all they can do. If you want actual faster response not related to the actual pedal depression speed, that has to be done inside the ECU.

EDIT: Also, this is so standard and obvious that I can't believe someone who is actually an engineer would believe otherwise. I also live in the KC area. Want to place a friendly wager? We'll break out the four channel scope. We'll plot the output on the scope. I can pull a pedal from a scrapyard car and show you all that is inside: two potentiometers. (they use mean value of both for a more accurate value since they need to be smooth and accurate) We'll then hook up a pedalbox. We'll plot the values on the other two channels. (my keysight scope has four channels which will be perfect for this) If you think you're right, let's put some money on this.

Thanks, but I've already seen the way the inputs are interpreted via Torque datalog data as received from the stock pedal and then the Sprint Booster installed. I did this to troubleshoot why I was having so much trouble starting out in 1st with the device installed as time went on.

I don't dispute that the controller is very simple in it's operation, BUT the way the DME and Valvetronic system interprets the revised signal and makes adjustments is clearly different from merely adjusting the way you work your right foot. You do know that the N55 and newer BMW motors don't use a throttle body, right? My guess is the Valvetronic system is to blame.

I drove around with the device for nearly a year. I too was skeptical but figured what the hell. My goal with the device was to get a more throttle response in DSC Off/Traction (i.e., Comfort throttle setting) without having to stab the throttle aggressively. It delivered on that promise other than the issue I had in 1st.

I've used the device on an N55 for a long period of time. You haven't. I know what it did to the throttle behavior. I wouldn't claim to know how it may affect an Audi/VW platform.

I don't claim that the device adds power or makes the car faster. I also don't claim that if you mash the gas with stock pedal or the device installed, the result would be different. Light and moderate throttle is different. By a mile. Like I said before, I'm incredibly critical of mods. If it's snake oil, I'd say so. I've wasted thousands on mods over the years because I bought the hype of customer and manufacturer reviews only to realize that the compromises were often understated or not noted at all. These pedal tuning devices work as advertised. Period. But if you're picky about total drivability, then it's probably not ideal for a 6MT. It's also why my Dinan Sport is currently in stock mode. I don't like the throttle behavior in 1st and portions of 2nd. That device clearly effects very low rpm driving as well, much like the Sprint Booster did.

[serrated]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Thanks, but I've already seen the way the inputs are interpreted via Torque datalog data as received from the stock pedal and then the Sprint Booster installed. I did this to troubleshoot why I was having so much trouble starting out in 1st with the device installed as time went on.

I don't dispute that the controller is very simple in it's operation, BUT the way the DME and Valvetronic system interprets the revised signal and makes adjustments is clearly different from merely adjusting the way you work your right foot. You do know that the N55 and newer BMW motors don't use a throttle body, right? My guess is the Valvetronic system is to blame.

I drove around with the device for nearly a year. I too was skeptical but figured what the hell. My goal with the device was to get a more throttle response in DSC Off/Traction (i.e., Comfort throttle setting) without having to stab the throttle aggressively. It delivered on that promise other than the issue I had in 1st.

I've used the device on an N55 for a long period of time. You haven't. I know what it did to the throttle behavior. I wouldn't claim to know how it may affect an Audi/VW platform.

Again, I'm doubting that you're an engineer since you're pushing your anecdotal evidence over science and facts. I just bought an m235i pedal sensor from rock auto. I'll order a pedal box tonight. (anyone know which is cheapest?) I'll make a youtube video proving my point once it all arrives.

The pedal box does nothing more than read the pedal sensor values and convert them to another value for the ecu to read.

And yes I know bmw uses intake valves instead of a throttle body. It doesn't matter. What it does on the intake side doesn't matter, we're talking about what happens between the pedal sensor and the ECU.

[Rocky58]

https://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by serrated

Again, I'm doubting that you're an engineer since you're pushing your anecdotal evidence over science and facts. I just bought an m235i pedal sensor from rock auto. I'll order a pedal box tonight. (anyone know which is cheapest?) I'll make a youtube video proving my point once it all arrives.

The pedal box does nothing more than read the pedal sensor values and convert them to another value for the ecu to read.

And yes I know bmw uses intake valves instead of a throttle body. It doesn't matter. What it does on the intake side doesn't matter, we're talking about what happens between the pedal sensor and the ECU.

Go ahead about doubt my 20+ year professional background. I'm an environmental scientist/engineer and design remediation systems among a host of other things.

Again, I not debating the way the pedal devices work and what signal is being sent out. They're simple and I'm pretty certain they're all the same on the inside. It's how that data is interpreted by BMW's DME and the values it's expecting. If that wasn't the case, then why was I having so much trouble in 1st gear? I turned off the device and all was well. I've been driving manuals since 1989. LOL

The DME considers ALL sorts of other systems as you push that pedal. Want an example? Put the car in Sport+ mode and with your wipers turned on, and take note that the power delivery in neutered a bit even on a dry street Then do the same with the wipers off. Full power. Go around a slight turn in Sport+ and punch it. You can feel power being pulled. Then do the same in DSC Off. Powerslide. Why? The nannies are looking at steering angle and keeping you safe.

Point is, the DME is tied into a lot of systems. This isn't a Subaru. My last car was a tuned 2012 WRX. My wife's car is a 2015 Outback. Subaru tuning and electronic controls are archaic in comparison to the BMW's DME.

Go ahead, run your tests and spend that money. Chances are, you're going to like it on that auto.

[zentanker]

I had a sprint booster in my E46, and it totally changes the way the car feels. It doesn't actually make your car quicker, but it definitely FEELS quicker and more responsive.

[serrated]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Go ahead about doubt my 20+ year professional background. I'm an environmental scientist/engineer and design remediation systems among a host of other things.

Again, I not debating the way the pedal devices work and what signal is being sent out. They're simple and I'm pretty certain they're all the same on the inside. It's how that data is interpreted by BMW's DME and the values it's expecting. If that wasn't the case, then why was I having so much trouble in 1st gear? I turned off the device and all was well. I've been driving manuals since 1989. LOL

The DME considers ALL sorts of other systems as you push that pedal. Want an example? Put the car in Sport+ mode and with your wipers turned on, and take note that the power delivery in neutered a bit even on a dry street Then do the same with the wipers off. Full power. Go around a slight turn in Sport+ and punch it. You can feel power being pulled. Then do the same in DSC Off. Powerslide. Why? The nannies are looking at steering angle and keeping you safe.

Point is, the DME is tied into a lot of systems. This isn't a Subaru. My last car was a tuned 2012 WRX. My wife's car is a 2015 Outback. Subaru tuning and electronic controls are archaic in comparison to the BMW's DME.

Go ahead, run your tests and spend that money. Chances are, you're going to like it on that auto.

You just proved my point then. If you don't doubt that the pedal boxes just intercept and remap pedal position values, (I'm glad you're starting to come around) then what does what the DME expects have to do with any of this? This goes between the pedal and the ECU. The pedal boxes don't plug into any other systems so it doesn't matter if the DME looks at other things like wipers/steering angle/etc. It expects a voltage (actually a pair of voltages) between two values, and that translates to the pedal position. The ecu remaps that value to a different throttle amount (in this case, vanos intake valve lift).

Your pedal box probably didn't get the voltages right and caused your issue. They need two ADC's at the input, a microcontroller to do the remapping and handle the button and lcd, and a pair of DAC's for the output. My friend had to send his back. There are several videos on youtube where people got check engine lights and limp mode and other issues with theirs. Lots of these are made cheaply and they probably aren't doing temperature compensation. Lots of analog stuff is pretty sensitive and people like to ignore temperature coefficients. As soon as the ecu sees a value that's outside of the "norm", it errors. I'd imagine this is purely a safety thing.

So if you do believe the pedal box just intercepts the pedal position sensor's values, remaps them before sending them to the ecu, without plugging into any other systems, how do you explain it doing anything other than literally making the pedal more sensitive by varying amounts?

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by serrated

Link to said video? Because that's total BS lol. These remappers just sit between the pedal (which plays virtually the same role as a joystick or game controller) and the ecu. Just like a piggyback tune. It reads your input, and sends a different value to the ecu.

I guarantee they just use something similar to a map() function. Let's say you want 50% pedal to be 100% throttle. They'd use something like output=map(input,0,50,0,100). You give it 25% pedal and it sends the ecu 50% throttle. Make sense?

The only way what you said would be possible is if they demonstrate with someone very slowly pushing the throttle in, and the one using the throttle manipulator has it set to an absurdly high setting like 10% pedal is full throttle. So if the guy spends a full ten seconds pushing the pedal down, it means on the stock car the throttle would spend ten full seconds fully opening while the remapped one would open at the end of the first second. This is dumb though because if you were actually racing the two cars at a light, you wouldn't slowly push the pedal down. You'd both stomp the pedal to the floor as soon as you see green and the difference between the two becomes almost zero.

OR you'd need to make a change in the ECU that gets rid of any throttle input averaging or smoothing. (crap they probably put in for fuel economy and generaly smoothness reasons) But that kind of change would require a flash.

Will it impact performance?

[Cabrio330]

I will say again - nearly everyone will enjoy these remappers. Those who don't merely cannot see past the technical aspects of how they work.

As for the retort "all you have to do is mash the pedal faster" to achieve the same result, I am sure those people still have a persimmon wood driver in their golf bag because, hey, all you have to do is hit the golf ball faster.

[ggggbmw]

Originally Posted by serrated

If anything, I want the opposite. Sport+ is basically a trigger. Makes it hard to modulate and feather on corner exit

Exactly this. I would prefer to run Sport+ on track for DTC off, but I can't because of the exaggerated pedal response. It makes the delicate task of adding throttle on a hot corner exit just too touchy. Especially in our under-tired cars. (Every exit 'event' I've had was in Sport+.)

I can totally see where a pedal 'tune' might make a car 'feel' more responsive. So many posts talk about how "sport mode really wakes up the car", when a large part of that is just the native throttle remap in that setting. Something like the Remus could improve on that initial tip-in response in many ways.

But this is NOT what I want. I've driven a lot of cars with half the acceleration potential of our 2'ers. Some of them are almost comical in the amount of throttle tip-in response they have. Like "whoa baby, feel those horses!" Most of these are boring cars, like my 2005 Taurus 24V wagon. (The worst was a Pontiac Vibe.) It just makes the car harder to drive smoothly. And once you get past the initial jolt, the rest of the pedal travel does nothing. You may not even realize the car is doing it until you hop back to something like the M235 with a linear response.

I love the fact that my 2'er has a linear response with a soft throttle tip-in. It's what makes the car a grown-up smooth daily driver, with still ridiculous acceleration capability if you push the pedal all the way. I love that the farther I push the pedal, the car just does MORE. It is what makes the power on this car feel so endless.

If that instant, more full, throttle response is what you want, great. Every person wants different things out of their car. That's what makes mods so personal. I know many would disagree with the things I've done to my car. But I would really challenge you to think about 'why' it feels better to you, and analyze if it is just the 'feeling' of more power. And also ask yourself why the full DSC Off track/drift mode uses 'slow' throttle.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by ggggbmw

And also ask yourself why the full DSC Off track/drift mode uses 'slow' throttle.

I could not have said this any better myself! Nice post. Thanks!