[cbbplanet]

Originally Posted by akuan99

The rear speakers are easy to replace by yourself and need no brackets.
There are some brackets available but you will have to use smaller 3.5" speakers.
Here is a picture of rear speaker install.
I have detail on install on another thread.

Do you have link to the install thread?

Also, the OP used a 4'' speaker for the rear deck i believe. Are you saying you think only the 3.5'' will fit?

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

- Finally, disconnect the center speaker on the dash. It isn't worth replacing and improves the soundstage.

Based on my own experience, no.

The stock locations for left and right are not properly set up for a good sound stage without a center channel. I don't care what speakers you put in there, there is too large a difference between the distance between the right speaker and your right ear, and the left speaker and your left ear. Without time alignment, it's never going to center as well as with a center channel.

The biggest problem with the center channel is the speaker just isn't ready to handle the full range of sound being dished to it. It's trying to reproduce all kinds of midbass frequencies and really shouldn't. Not that midbass can't be part of the sound stage, but it is a more forgiving frequency range that can be reproduced by the underseat subs without a huge loss in imaging.

I might experiment with some kind of bass blocker. I think an inline capacitor could help roll off the lower frequencies, keeping most of the upper human voice frequencies, while slowly rolling off the lower frequencies.

I finished the door speaker installs over the weekend. Again, not too bad once you know what's going on - when to remove what and how... my setup was a little more involved, since I had to figure out what to do with the tweeters. I ended up using a hole saw I had. It fit the tweeters perfectly, allowing me to position them a bit, up and towards the passenger. I then used hot glue behind them to keep them in place.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

The biggest problem with the center channel is the speaker just isn't ready to handle the full range of sound being dished to it. It's trying to reproduce all kinds of midbass frequencies and really shouldn't. Not that midbass can't be part of the sound stage, but it is a more forgiving frequency range that can be reproduced by the underseat subs without a huge loss in imaging.

I might experiment with some kind of bass blocker. I think an inline capacitor could help roll off the lower frequencies, keeping most of the upper human voice frequencies, while slowly rolling off the lower frequencies.

Well, for most it's not worth replacing because as you demonstrate, it would take some work and some money -- and if you employ LPFs/HPFs and the like on that one speaker and still keep it in the system for music, etc., it's going to really sound like crap. I'd rather have good stereo separation through high-quality speakers than a moderately easier-to-hear voice. Besides: the placement of the speaker on the door is fairly high for a door mount, so the usual issues with tweeter imaging and angle are reduced -- so much so that I'm not even considering components (and I don't even have my car yet!)

I agree with you re: the subs under the seat. in fact, unless you're rollin' to RZA, yo, midbass drivers might work wonders down there ...

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Well, for most it's not worth replacing because as you demonstrate, it would take some work and some money -- and if you employ LPFs/HPFs and the like on that one speaker and still keep it in the system for music, etc., it's going to really sound like crap. I'd rather have good stereo separation through high-quality speakers than a moderately easier-to-hear voice. Besides: the placement of the speaker on the door is fairly high for a door mount, so the usual issues with tweeter imaging and angle are reduced -- so much so that I'm not even considering components (and I don't even have my car yet!)

I agree with you re: the subs under the seat. in fact, unless you're rollin' to RZA, yo, midbass drivers might work wonders down there ...

I still disagree. I spent the entire weekend installing a high quality set of speakers. I bought a set of Jehnert Flatline speakers, components and underseat subs. I can honestly say this system sounds better than the H/K in my e92. That said, without the center channel, you will find it hard to get proper imaging. This is from first hand experience.

Part of the problem with the center channel is a problem I created. I installed the Jehnert subs which are 4 ohm where the stock were 2 ohm. So I've increased the bass and the volume to compensate, but this creates an issue for the center channel, which acts as a full range speaker and it simply cannot work at full range at these levels. I totally stand by my statement though - you take the center channel out and all your singers will be positioned by the curtain at the left side of the stage.

Plenty of people have resorted to using JBL's MS8 just to get Logic7 processing back into their car after upgrading the audio. This is hinged on its ability to provide a center channel. I've seen where Technic used a pair of CDT Upstage drivers hacked up in the center channel location for a cheap alternative to using a DSP with center channel - that's how important he felt the center channel was. From his review: The results were simply impressive -the sucker really fills a stage hole in the dash that we did not realize that existed before.

[gtaphile]

Thanks for the advice - everyone.

I am taking it in soon to the local focal/jl audio dealer to assess.

I'll let them do the doors, have a listen and go from there.

[Viffermike]

Sounds like a solid plan, gtaphile!

hyperzulu: I respect your point of view. I guess it all depends on one's goals and priorities for the system. I'm a stereo purist with no use for a center channel for music -- in a car, at home, or anywhere. (Home theater is, of course, another story). I feel a car interior is far too small and imperfect a soundstage to worry about things like sonic parallax. Perfect sound is simply not possible in a car -- good sound, however, is.

For me, as long as the speakers are well designed, responsive, and robust, the amplification is uncolored flat (yes, the HiFi amp will be pulled in my 228i) and the power is sufficient, I'll probably be happy. I'll spend the big sound bucks elsewhere.

[Gizzy's_M235i]

I just picked up a pair of Focals that I wanted to install in the rear deck. Does anyone know where I can get an adapter or harness that will allow me to plug the Bmw speaker wire directly into these Focals. I don't want to have to splice anything.

[gtaphile]

I just finished a replacement of the facctory 4 inch speakers in the doors and back deck with Focal PC 100's .

I was surprised to see the factory speakers are so basic. I don't think the pics on here do justice to just how flimsy they are. incredibly small magnet structure, basic paper cone, cost to produce $10 maybe.

To circle back i am an audiophile that just replaced my 2007 335i that had the HK system with a 2014 M235i with the basic stereo.

The system was awful and the engine "symposer" was awful as a result.

Now with just the 4 speaker replaced the mids and highs are much much better - more open and detailed. The engine noise through the stereo is much more palatable to me - I now have the best of both worlds. Its still there albeit less bothersome (not so lose and undefined and just distorted ) overall the level appears to be lower I believe do to the lower distortion. For me the engine input hits the basic factory stereo at its weakest area of the band.

Anyway I am much happier

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Gizzy's_M235i

I just picked up a pair of Focals that I wanted to install in the rear deck. Does anyone know where I can get an adapter or harness that will allow me to plug the Bmw speaker wire directly into these Focals. I don't want to have to splice anything.

This apparently will work: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-OEM-Spea...-/161420349903



I used my crimper/stripper to peel back a bit of the sheathing and expose a half inch of bare wire, but if you don't want to cut and splice, this should work. Not sure why you want to replace the rears. I don't even hear mine and they seem to get a more limited range of frequency than the other speakers. I have a pair of 4" speakers I was going to use, but haven't found the need to even bother.

[Gizzy's_M235i]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

This apparently will work: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-OEM-Spea...-/161420349903



I used my crimper/stripper to peel back a bit of the sheathing and expose a half inch of bare wire, but if you don't want to cut and splice, this should work. Not sure why you want to replace the rears. I don't even hear mine and they seem to get a more limited range of frequency than the other speakers. I have a pair of 4" speakers I was going to use, but haven't found the need to even bother.

Thanks for this. I plan on replacing both rear and door and just figured the rears would be easier to start with. Maybe I'll put these in the doors though.

[cbbplanet]

Just want to ask the opinions and feedback for those who changed to the Focal speakers? Called a couple audio shops who are dealers for Focal and suprisingly, most of them told me to either go with something better or something that fit (such as Gladen or Match). Or they told me to get a better tweeter and leave the door midrange alone because it is 'good enough' or better than the Focals.

[MrBallooKnot]

I just went to two Car Toys places today to potentially install the Focal ISC 100s. I got basically the same response in that they hadn't done any work on any 2-series yet and didn't have the specs for them. Store #1 was a little vague in their assessment and simply offered to work on it at an hourly rate. Store #2's biggest concern was that the system may be factory tuned based on the stock speakers and that new speakers, even good ones, may not sound much different. Both wouldn't speculate on the fit but, since others seemed to manage, I'm not as worried about that.

Any thoughts on Store #2's concerns about the stock system being "tuned" for the stock speakers (they may have used different terms than that but that's the gist of it)?

[gtaphile]

Lets review again.....here are two pics of the BMW M235i standard stereo 4 inch speakers for the doors and the back deck. Notice the incredibly small magnet structure no bigger than my thumb. Notice the small plastic basket and basic paper cone and no separate tweeter.

I manage my own audio consulting company with no affiliation to the car stereo business and I have seen a lot of stock speakers over the years. I was drawn to upgrade the sound because it was simply awful from the get go. You should have seen the look on the installers face when he removed the stock speakers.

These speakers are simply garbage!

The focal PC 100's (last image) cost $260 per pair, have a .35 lb magnet, are two way with polyglass cone. The IC 100's are nearly identical in specs. with only slightly lower quality across the board and they can be had for $100 a pair on amazon.

The focal upgrade totally transformed the mids. and highs and they are much more efficient than the stock speakers.

[MrBallooKnot]

Thank you. I fully plan to have them go ahead with the install but that odd comment about the speakers possibly being somehow "programmed" to a specific sound threw me.

Naturally, I will rely on the advice of the experienced, intelligent, and good-looking colleagues of this forum. :-)

[hyperzulu]

The second stores concerns are not entirely unfounded and are probably just to cover their asses. They'd have to put everything back to stock and eat the installation cost if they have some satisfaction guaranteed warranty. They probably want you to know up front that the system may sound less than ideal without an external signal. Either way better speakers will fix some of the sound. But based on my experience, I would probably invest in a new amp since I think that is really the systems weakest point in my opinion. Depends on what you want though.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

The second stores concerns are not entirely unfounded and are probably just to cover their asses. They'd have to put everything back to stock and eat the installation cost if they have some satisfaction guaranteed warranty. They probably want you to know up front that the system may sound less than ideal without an external signal. Either way better speakers will fix some of the sound. But based on my experience, I would probably invest in a new amp since I think that is really the systems weakest point in my opinion. Depends on what you want though.

In this instance in particular, I need to disagree - the set-up is quite complex (base stereo has a symposer input (engine noise input that can't be defeated without the system shutting down as I understand it today), the amp is likely 7 channels and the communication connection between head unit and the amp is proprietary and the stock speakers are throw away.

To change the amp alone would be a waste of money as integrating it would be costly and difficult and for what to power throw away speakers.

If you replace any part of the signal chain from head unit to in front of the speakers you better be prepared to go all.

[akuan99]

Originally Posted by gtaphile

In this instance in particular, I need to disagree - the set-up is quite complex (base stereo has a symposer input (engine noise input that can't be defeated without the system shutting down as I understand it today), the amp is likely 7 channels and the communication connection between head unit and the amp is proprietary and the stock speakers are throw away.

To change the amp alone would be a waste of money as integrating it would be costly and difficult and for what to power throw away speakers.

If you replace any part of the signal chain from head unit to in front of the speakers you better be prepared to go all.

It is correct for HK stereo in that it uses proprietary communication from head to amp.
However for the HiFi stereo the head unit simply outputs 4 hi-level balanced signals (front L+R rear L+R).
There is some minimal DSP processing on the stock HiFi amp mainly some speaker equalization and time delay process to integrate midrange and the subs. The amp also process L+R to produce center channel.
There are a few side effects or balance changes when you change the stock speakers only on the HiFi system.
The most noticeable will be the uneven frequency response since the better after market speakers do not need some of the frequency boost from the stock amp.
There is upper bass and low treble boost on HiFi stock amp.
Depending on how efficient are the aftermarket speakers there will be unmatched level outputs between the midrange and the subs.
This missmatch levels and frequency boost from the stock amp can be compesated using an appropriate equalizer or DSP.
Since there is no equalizer on the F22 stereo the best that can be done is to tweak it using bass and treble control.
For most setup you will need to trim levels on both (I'm using bass -3 treble -2).
The best way to upgrade HiFi stereo is to replace speakers and the amp.
Adding DSP will help in fine tuning speakers with the car environment as well as integrating the midrange drives with the woofers or subwoofers.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by akuan99

It is correct for HK stereo in that it uses proprietary communication from head to amp.
However for the HiFi stereo the head unit simply outputs 4 hi-level balanced signals (front L+R rear L+R).
There is some minimal DSP processing on the stock HiFi amp mainly some speaker equalization and time delay process to integrate midrange and the subs. The amp also process L+R to produce center channel.
There are a few side effects or balance changes when you change the stock speakers only on the HiFi system.
The most noticeable will be the uneven frequency response since the better after market speakers do not need some of the frequency boost from the stock amp.
There is upper bass and low treble boost on HiFi stock amp.
Depending on how efficient are the aftermarket speakers there will be unmatched level outputs between the midrange and the subs.
This missmatch levels and frequency boost from the stock amp can be compesated using an appropriate equalizer or DSP.
Since there is no equalizer on the F22 stereo the best that can be done is to tweak it using bass and treble control.
For most setup you will need to trim levels on both (I'm using bass -3 treble -2).
The best way to upgrade HiFi stereo is to replace speakers and the amp.
Adding DSP will help in fine tuning speakers with the car environment as well as integrating the midrange drives with the woofers or subwoofers.

This is very helpful as I am looking at further changes to my set-up.

I understand if you disconnect the stereo feed to the amp from the M235i's electronic "symposer engine sound" the stereo does not work.

You seem very knowledgeable - are you taking this into consideration?

[Gizzy's_M235i]

What's up everybody. I'm just entering the world of stereo upgrades, pretty much learning by reading these forums. I picked up a pair of FOCAL Access 100AC that I am now thinking I will put in the doors. I am looking for a cheaper (under $50) set of speakers to put in the rear deck. Ive been looking around on EBAY and found these kickers and these Audiobahn and these Pioneers. I am assuming something with a built in tweeter is better since I dont plan on replacing the amp. Thanks in advance for your help.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by gtaphile

In this instance in particular, I need to disagree - the set-up is quite complex (base stereo has a symposer input (engine noise input that can't be defeated without the system shutting down as I understand it today), the amp is likely 7 channels and the communication connection between head unit and the amp is proprietary and the stock speakers are throw away.

To change the amp alone would be a waste of money as integrating it would be costly and difficult and for what to power throw away speakers.

If you replace any part of the signal chain from head unit to in front of the speakers you better be prepared to go all.

Like I said. Depends on what you're looking for. I think the stock speakers are weak, but also think a lot of people will benefit most from an amp upgrade.

You can replace the stock amp without interfering with active sound, the artificial engine noise. The base stereo is different from the Harmon kardon which uses a digital bus for its signal. Furthermore active sound can be defeated through Idrive (coding).

You can most definitely just replace the amp if you want. This system is not as heavily integrated as you are thinking. If you want a louder system, an amp is where you want to go.

[gtaphile]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Like I said. Depends on what you're looking for. I think the stock speakers are weak, but also think a lot of people will benefit most from an amp upgrade.

You can replace the stock amp without interfering with active sound, the artificial engine noise. The base stereo is different from the Harmon kardon which uses a digital bus for its signal. Furthermore active sound can be defeated through Idrive (coding).

You can most definitely just replace the amp if you want. This system is not as heavily integrated as you are thinking. If you want a louder system, an amp is where you want to go.

I was misinformed then. Thanks

[cbbplanet]

Originally Posted by akuan99

It is correct for HK stereo in that it uses proprietary communication from head to amp.
However for the HiFi stereo the head unit simply outputs 4 hi-level balanced signals (front L+R rear L+R).
There is some minimal DSP processing on the stock HiFi amp mainly some speaker equalization and time delay process to integrate midrange and the subs. The amp also process L+R to produce center channel.
There are a few side effects or balance changes when you change the stock speakers only on the HiFi system.
The most noticeable will be the uneven frequency response since the better after market speakers do not need some of the frequency boost from the stock amp.
There is upper bass and low treble boost on HiFi stock amp.
Depending on how efficient are the aftermarket speakers there will be unmatched level outputs between the midrange and the subs.
This missmatch levels and frequency boost from the stock amp can be compesated using an appropriate equalizer or DSP.
Since there is no equalizer on the F22 stereo the best that can be done is to tweak it using bass and treble control.
For most setup you will need to trim levels on both (I'm using bass -3 treble -2).
The best way to upgrade HiFi stereo is to replace speakers and the amp.
Adding DSP will help in fine tuning speakers with the car environment as well as integrating the midrange drives with the woofers or subwoofers.

When you say HiFi stereo.. is that just the base stereo BMW comes with? When I ordered my car, I didn't want to upgrade to just HK speakers and I don't see any option to upgrade to the logic7 or better audio system so I didn't change my audio options.

Now, after hearing the car for myself, I have to change the speakers. According to what you said, best way is to upgrade amp or add DSP as well. However, I can also only upgrade speakers and use the bass/treble within the car to compensate for the mismatch?