[MASHCT]

Howdy!

Editing the post because it gets jacked later & you have to read through a lot of BS. The important stuff I want to convey about what I purchased for ME & how it sounded to ME & how I installed stuff is here for you to evaluate. You might want to read my later posts though - because they're hilarious.

Important note - read the post by Zooks about removing the stock amp, bypassing the ASD unit & updating the ECU. You will have to reinstall the HK amp if an ECU upgrade is necessary. Ask your tech if they're doing an ECU flash & if they are, tell them they can't until you swap amps again. Please don't ask me about the issue - read Zook's post.

Some additional & new info:

- Nelson from Bimmertech has posted some misleading info in this thread by stating that Audio Control equipment hisses & introduces alternator whine. The DQDX I have installed produces zero noise zero hiss, zero alternator whine. And if you do pick up noise, it has jumpers under the chassis you can swap around various ways to try & eliminate noise. Since we all have the same car, if you install it correctly, you will not get noise. I didn't.

- With regards to hiss, search the forums. Folks are saying they hear hiss when they've just replaced the speakers. That means the stock system has hiss inherent in it. It could be the ASD, could be from the systems that piggy-back on the audio system to introduce gongs, chimes, nav voice-over, etc... Plenty of posts on this, just trust me, it's inherent & not your aftermarket equipment. Unless you bought crap or installed something incorrectly. Don't skimp folks - but you also don't have to spend $1,000's.

You have to keep the gains low on your replacement amp. Too high & you WILL hear the hiss. One thing I noticed was even when the gains were turned down, the new amp simply crushed it. It was way louder & cleaner than the HK amp. This tells me the HK amp gains are very, very low to tame the ASD (everyone says the ASD is WAY louder with aftermarket amp) and control the noise.

Viffermike suggests the hiss is the OEM system's noise floor. That I read post after post of folks talking about hiss tells me he's likely correct and the noise is just there. He suggests getting an in-line filter if it bugs you. But, I turned the gains down on the JLA Amp & I still have great volume to overcome the road noise & it's clean & clear. Put my ear to the speaker & I can hear faint hiss. Whoop-de-doo - inaudible once music starts. Or the car. So if you just sit in your car & don't drive it & complain about hearing hiss - gimme your car, you crazy pants!

And the hiss is there without the Audio Control installed.

The CDT audio HD42 speakers arrived & are installed. They're awesome - period. Silky smooth highs & mids, tight, warm. $389 direct from OEM. I bought them based primarily on what the OEM said about their sound - turns out there were spot-on correct. There could be better out there, but there's probably a better planet out there to live on, too. Perspective folks. Understand what you like & what you need. If you are OCD & likely to be disappointed or worry about something better, then don't compromise. I spent what I wanted to, given the $875 H/K mistake I already made. I will upgrade later, if I feel I have to because I am OCD. But right now, I am 100% happy.

Some answers to questions after the original post:

The CDT audio door speakers. You will need the spacer found on ebay. You'll need this for any speaker that is not "shallow mount" (as in, 2" or less). Search ebay for: BMW F30/31/32/22 Speaker Adapter. Sold by 73mustangconv. He also sells the speaker connector adapter pigtails. They're awesome & work perfectly. They're sold in pairs & you'll need them front & rear if you do not want to cut the factory wire. You will not want to cut it as the available wire on the passenger door is VERY short as it is.

You will need to bend the terminal tabs towards the magnet a tiny bit. The speaker fits tightly - but if you center it & tighten the screws partially, then all of the way, it sits flush & perfectly.

I put a ring of electrical sealant putty (you can get it at Home Depot) around the front of the speaker mount to seal it to the door panel & help prevent rattling.

The CDT crossover - I should have taken a picture of how I mounted it. (Dumb of me!) So what I did... When you take the door panel off, on the door panel you will see some thick padding. There is a space behind this padding where the crossover fits PERFECTLY! I attached it to the panel with industrial Velcro.

Fitting the tweeter to the sail panel is, well... a teeny bit tricky. It is not drop in, perfect fit. So how I mounted the tweeter...

I broke off a piece of the electrical putty, made a rope & ran it around the edge of the bottom of the cut out where the HK tweeter fit. Lightly pressed the tweeter against the putty. Then I used a hot glue gun to plop a few drops of glue to hold the tweeter in place once I got it positioned how I wanted it. You could probably by the non-HK tweeter sail panel & flush-mount the tweeter. I might do that some day. For now, I just wanted improved sound.

Be careful when re-assembling the sail panel. Press everything back together gently. Everything fits just fine.

Another neat bonus... the CDT Crossover has a nice, rubber-like sticker logo on it. I took it off the xover & covered over the HK logo on the sail. Totally covers it & it fits perfectly in the space. Here I used light duty double-sided sticky tape. (I keep that around to play practical jokes on hairy guys when they fall asleep in my house.)

Two buds of mine went for rides today in the car. They were blown away by the sound. They couldn't believe how clear & powerful it is. They're audiophile dweebs, too.

I can't tell you how the sound compares to other brands. I picked CDT Audio because of some reviews I read & the info on their webpage. I just like what I read about their history, quality construction, freq response, sensitivity, silk dome tweeter - and what is clearly bang for buck.

I was considering Focal, but many reviews talk about shrill highs & they are pricey. I would say, based on what I am hearing from the CDTs, any difference with Focal and I would bet any other brand is matter of taste. The CDTs are extremely impressive. (They have no idea I am saying any of this.) No joke, I was shocked at the smooth, warm sound & the clarity. I was not expecting that.

I would say the dispersion is amazing. With the fader sent to front, I swear I am still picking up sound from the rear and I can assure you they are off. I kept turning down the rears, thinking they were too loud - until I faded front to rear. I could barely hear the rears! The CDT sound stage is amazing. I can localize them a little & I think that is attributable to the highs.

Set the tweeter setting on the crossover to "0". Your choices are -3, 0 & +3. 0, for me, was perfect. Wait until break in the mess with EQ & that setting.



Up to you to evaluate what I say below & make your decisions accordingly. I am not trying to sell anything - I am just a dude who loves (and PLAYS) music. And I happen to know a little about stereo equipment because I am an enthusiast.

Your ears are yours alone. You know what sounds good to you. I can tell you that I think the JLA Amp can produce sound that is capable of doing that for you.

ORIGINAL POST BEGINS HERE:

I have begun the upgrade to the (HK) sound system in my M235i. I am not finished yet - waiting for the front speakers, but thought I would talk about first impressions & address some of the things I've read in various posts.

Maybe I'll answer some questions folks have had, and some questions folks will eventually have. Hopefully, my take will help you make some decisions.

And I am going to say some sacrilegious stuff here.

First - what you will need:

- Technic's amp & active sound defeating harnesses. Get them. Period.
- An amp installation kit. Just get one - it will make your install way easier.
- Patience and time. Installation is not hard, but you want to do it right.

What I've installed so far:

- JL Audio XD600d/V2 amp. This is a compact, well built, crystal clear amp; 6x75 RMS @ 4 ohms. However, with the stock under-seat woofers being 2 ohms, power output is 4 x 75W @ 4 ohms; 2 @ 100W at 2 ohms. Yes, you can mix speaker impedance on this amp.

This amp has balanced differential inputs. You need this for the OEM system; eliminates noise.

- Audio Control DQDX. I got this primarily for the EQ & 6 CH RCA outs.

- Morel Tempo Coax in the rear

Coming - CDT Audio HD4.2 for the fronts.

Some things I learned:

You will NOT need to disconnect the center speaker with this set up. There is no output to it. Don't bother disconnecting it.

I first ran the 4 inputs to the DQDX & 4 outs to the JLA amp. Then, switched the JLA amp configuration to "4CH" inputs. The amp takes channels 1 & 3 (front & rear left) and channels 2 & 4 (front & rear right), sums them & outputs the signal to channels 5 & 6 for the under-seat woofers.

I did not like this set up. The woofer output was weak, but when you faded it, the response would markedly improve. Everything was wired correctly, so this told me something was up with how the fader in the HU works & how the JLA amp does its "thing".

So, I changed the set up so that the DQDX still received the inputs, but output to 6 channels. This is accomplished with a change to a jumper setting under the hood of the DQDX. The DQDX creates a parallel signal using the front input for the woofer output.

Running 6 outputs from the DQDX to the JLA amp made for a MUCH improved sound and bass output.

I also first tried the Linkwitz-Reilly crossovers in the DQDX, JLA crossovers defeated. Then the Butterworth crossovers in the JLA amp with the DQDX crossovers defeated. Crossover frequency used was 80hz.

The DQDX... didn't like the crossover. I felt like the speakers were too defined, as in I could readily locate EACH speaker. Meaning, the woofer, the midrange & the tweeters (in the front) and the rears were markedly pronounced. The sound did not "blend". I am going to guess this has something to do with the LW slope.

Next, defeated the DQDX crossovers & used the JLA amp crossovers. Way better sound. Smooth, coherent - perfect.

HISS HISS HISS

I did some digging around various forums & posts. I saw a few posts that said the hiss is likely coming from the ASD. It either includes an amp, or a booster - folks are suggesting it is outputting a high-level signal. Solution? Set the JLA amp input to "high level" even though you're using RCA inputs.

Before I did that, I could hear this hiss, very clearly. But guess what? It's there in the stock HK system too. BUT - the HK amp is tuned - and I bet intentionally - to output a weak signal. Notice how turning up the volume doesn't really produce a markedly loud & clear soundstage?

I moved amp grounds from the chassis to direct-to-battery. I tried every combination for every jumper setting in the DQDX for balanced/unbalanced & changing the ground configuration (the DQDX has various settings to eliminate noise) at chassis ground and battery ground. Every set up still produced the hiss. And remember, the JLA amp has differential inputs. This told me it's not the ground, nor is it noise being introduced into the system.

What this means for you...

Regardless of Audio Control's & JL Audio's guidance on how to set your input & output gains - don't follow them. I set all input gains very low & output gains very reasonable. I doubt I am getting all of the performance this system is capable of, but I can tell you this: I am blown away by what I am hearing.

Heresy & sacrilege!

If you are looking for a cost-effective upgrade where you will be able to markedly - and I mean MARKEDLY, MASSIVELY - improve the sound of the HK system: START WITH DEFEATING THE ASD & REPLACE THE HK AMP!

I always tell my friends & people who ask - if you must skimp to save $$, buy cheaper amps, receivers, processors, etc.. and spend your bucks on speakers. Car questions, I say replace your speakers FIRST.

But here's the thing... you replace the speakers, you still have to contend with the absolutely SHITTY HK amp & it's piss-poor tune. You HAVE to get rid of this amp.

Proof is in the puddin', puddin'.

Once I replaced the amp, the sound from the HK speakers changed dramatically and I will say this... was ALMOST good enough. I seriously thought, "Holy hell, I don't need to replace the speakers? No way..."

No joke, everything about the HK system changed & massively so for the better. I think anyone looking to do a "first upgrade" will be incredibly surprised & happy with just doing the amp. Even the stock under-seat woofers are punchier & play lower & louder than I thought they could.

I am telling you the weakest link is the HK amp. Ditch it.

How I knew the speakers still had to go....

I do have a golden ear. Plain & simple, I know & love good sound - better said, what's good to me. My ears are different from your ears & so are my tastes when compared to yours.

I put in the Morels. Faded front to rear while giving a good listen to challenging music. Progressive metal is the only way to go.

This is when the HK speakers - TO ME - fell short. If I had nothing to compare them to, I can tell you I would have been at least happy with the HK speakers. But once I heard their shortcomings so plainly, I could not ignore them.

The tweeter is not as harsh as a lot of people think, even for a metal dome tweeter. I ain't saying it's perfect - it was just far smoother with the JLA amp.

But...

There is some shrillness (can correct with EQ)
There is definitely a "nasally" sound. This could not be corrected. This is a fault of speaker construction I am guessing. Something is coloring the sound with crap.
Weak mid-bass response (can correct with EQ, but it's still lacking compared to the Morels.) Morels noticeably "crisper" & "sharper" - very noticeable on drum beats & a bass player that PLAYS the bass. The Morels produce SOUND - no color. Awesome.

First impressions/bottom line:

If you live near the Hartford area - PM me and I will GLADLY let you hear this system. Bass & treble controls are set to flat, and I am not even using the EQ in the DQDX but you would think I am. You will think I have the bass cranked & I promise you, I do not. I can detect some middle bass is missing, but that could be the HK fronts so not adjusting a dang thing until I get the CDTs.

But I am going to bet I will not need to adjust the EQ one iota on the DQDX.

Volume - this system CRANKS. Drowns out road & wind noise not just because of sheer volume, but because of.. I dunno.. I would call it "presence". That HK amp just can't overcome the road & wind noise. Either due to weak power, gain settings (which can't be user-adjusted) or the tune.

I am also not using the DQDX's delay settings. Soundstage is perfect.

I see no need for an amp/DSP that has tuning capability if you get the right speakers and amp in the first place. (There's that heresy again.) In other words... I think the Bimmertech amp is a huge waste of money & time. I see so many people fretting about tunes & "the right settings yet still complaining about crappy sound. Good god... get a simpler, less expensive but quality amp and use your ears!! (Sorry if this upsets you, but it's true. I see all these people getting the Bimmertech amp & then crying about setting it up. Overpriced, still underpowered snake oil. There, I said it.)

If I am going to spend $1,000 on an amp, it better sound PERFECT out of the box. If I have to twiddle & tweak & fret about various settings after spending $1,000, well that tells me right there I am not starting with $1,000 quality. I am SO glad I didn't get sucked into all that plug-n-play marketing hype. (OOPS! I did it again!)

Alpine, Kenwood, JL Audio & some others make great amps at great prices. The thing about the JLA is that it FITS IN THE OEM SPOT! Mount it on a piece of wood, cover it with nice fabric & use industrial Velcro to attach it to the chassis. Done, rock-solid mount - and you can easily take it off by just pulling it up off the Velcro! WOW!

Clarity - this amp is CLEAN AND CLEAR! I got rid of the hiss by correcting the gain settings & this thing is still WAY louder than stock. And plenty loud enough. I still can't believe at first, it was all the same speakers. Seriously.

OH - and the phone? Sounds like people are in the dang car. And I have no Bluetooth echo.

Soundstage, VASTLY improved. The entire windshield is the soundfield. I could not "locate" the speakers, except for truly "fill" sounds, cymbal crashes (high freq sounds are highly directional) or sweeps from left to right. Honestly, the system sounded "right" or "right enough" with just the amp swap.

I have to say, I think most people who are disappointed with the HK system & regretting the purchase will be VERY happy with just an amp swap - AS LONG AS YOU SET IT UP CORRECTLY. Remember - keep the gains low. Trust me, this JL Amp plays LOUD & CLEAN!

Bass response - holy mackerel, no joke, the OEM HK woofers are plenty fine with the right amp. I am not replacing them. The sound is so well-rounded now, punchy, ballsy & full I can't believe it's the same system. I seriously FEEL the bass & it is - believe it or not - very, very musical. (You are not hearing one "BOOM BOOM BOOM" in time with beats like you do with ummm.. those crappy loud-bass systems. You are hearing low-end MUSIC.)

The Morels are KILLER. The mid-bass punch is THERE. No need for high-priced components in the rear.

I can't wait to hear the CDTs now! I will let you know about those once I have them installed.

[Viffermike]

First things first:

Originally Posted by MASH65

Progressive metal is the only way to go.

F YEAH! You and I would get along quite well ...

... because everything you've done makes absolute total sense -- including the gain structure. I suspected the 2 Series audio outputted a very weak signal.

Originally Posted by MASH65

I can detect some middle bass is missing, but that could be the HK fronts so not adjusting a dang thing until I get the CDTs.

My bet here is that you've got a crossover issue between the JLs and the underseat subs. But the CDTs should cover that up somewhat.

Originally Posted by MASH65

Volume - this system CRANKS. Drowns out road & wind noise not just because of sheer volume, but because of ... I dunno.. I would call it "presence". That HK amp just can't overcome the road & wind noise. Either due to weak power, gain settings (which can't be user-adjusted) or the tune.

It's probably a combo of all three. I've preached this time and time again: power, clarity, and the quality of source programming (read: just say NO! to anything under 320 kbps!!!) matter, even in a less-than-ideal listening environment.

Originally Posted by MASH65

I see no need for an amp/DSP that has tuning capability if you get the right speakers and amp in the first place. (There's that heresy again.) In other words... I think the Bimmertech amp is a huge waste of money & time. I see so many people fretting about tunes & "the right settings yet still complaining about crappy sound. Good god... get a simpler, less expensive but quality amp and use your ears!!

That's not heresy, my man: that's people who don't understand why and how good hardware matters. That said, I think DSP can only help, so the Bimmertech solution isn't a total waste for someone who wants to fine-tune things and who knows what they're doing. But it's certainly not a requirement when the gear around it is good.

Originally Posted by MASH65

The Morels are KILLER. The mid-bass punch is THERE. No need for high-priced components in the rear.

Absolutely agree 100 percent -- even for those with components in the rear deck. A quality pair of coaxials are all that are needed back there.

OK, I'm done. Kudos, and

[Bee Pee]

Mash65,

Great insight and review - I'm wanting more punch from HK sound so I'm thinking just the amp swap. Comments ?

Which amp install kit did you go with ?

Thanks again for taking the time to share

BP

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by MASH65

Howdy!

I have begun the upgrade to the (HK) sound system in my M235i. I am not finished yet - waiting for the front speakers, but thought I would talk about first impressions & address some of the things I've read in various posts.

Maybe I'll answer some questions folks have had, and some questions folks will eventually have. Hopefully, my take will help you make some decisions.

And I am going to say some sacrilegious stuff here.

First - what you will need:

- Technic's amp & active sound defeating harnesses. Get them. Period.
- An amp installation kit. Just get one - it will make your install way easier.
- Patience and time. Installation is not hard, but you want to do it right.

What I've installed so far:

- JL Audio XD600d/V2 amp. This is a compact, well built, crystal clear amp; 6x75 RMS @ 4 ohms. However, with the stock under-seat woofers being 2 ohms, power output is 4 x 75W @ 4 ohms; 2 @ 100W at 2 ohms. Yes, you can mix speaker impedance on this amp.

This amp has balanced differential inputs. You need this for the OEM system; eliminates noise.

- Audio Control DQDX. I got this primarily for the EQ & 6 CH RCA outs.

- Morel Tempo Coax in the rear

Coming - CDT Audio HD4.2 for the fronts.

Some things I learned:

You will NOT need to disconnect the center speaker with this set up. There is no output to it. Don't bother disconnecting it.

I first ran the 4 inputs to the DQDX & 4 outs to the JLA amp. Then, switched the JLA amp configuration to "4CH" inputs. The amp takes channels 1 & 3 (front & rear left) and channels 2 & 4 (front & rear right), sums them & outputs the signal to channels 5 & 6 for the under-seat woofers.

I did not like this set up. The woofer output was weak, but when you faded it, the response would markedly improve. Everything was wired correctly, so this told me something was up with how the fader in the HU works & how the JLA amp does its "thing".

So, I changed the set up so that the DQDX still received the inputs, but output to 6 channels. This is accomplished with a change to a jumper setting under the hood of the DQDX. The DQDX creates a parallel signal using the front input for the woofer output.

Running 6 outputs from the DQDX to the JLA amp made for a MUCH improved sound and bass output.

I also first tried the Linkwitz-Reilly crossovers in the DQDX, JLA crossovers defeated. Then the Butterworth crossovers in the JLA amp with the DQDX crossovers defeated. Crossover frequency used was 80hz.

The DQDX... didn't like the crossover. I felt like the speakers were too defined, as in I could readily locate EACH speaker. Meaning, the woofer, the midrange & the tweeters (in the front) and the rears were markedly pronounced. The sound did not "blend". I am going to guess this has something to do with the LW slope.

Next, defeated the DQDX crossovers & used the JLA amp crossovers. Way better sound. Smooth, coherent - perfect.

HISS HISS HISS

I did some digging around various forums & posts. I saw a few posts that said the hiss is likely coming from the ASD. It either includes an amp, or a booster - folks are suggesting it is outputting a high-level signal. Solution? Set the JLA amp input to "high level" even though you're using RCA inputs.

Before I did that, I could hear this hiss, very clearly. But guess what? It's there in the stock HK system too. BUT - the HK amp is tuned - and I bet intentionally - to output a weak signal. Notice how turning up the volume doesn't really produce a markedly loud & clear soundstage?

I moved amp grounds from the chassis to direct-to-battery. I tried every combination for every jumper setting in the DQDX for balanced/unbalanced & changing the ground configuration (the DQDX has various settings to eliminate noise) at chassis ground and battery ground. Every set up still produced the hiss. And remember, the JLA amp has differential inputs. This told me it's not the ground, nor is it noise being introduced into the system.

What this means for you...

Regardless of Audio Control's & JL Audio's guidance on how to set your input & output gains - don't follow them. I set all input gains very low & output gains very reasonable. I doubt I am getting all of the performance this system is capable of, but I can tell you this: I am blown away by what I am hearing.

Heresy & sacrilege!

If you are looking for a cost-effective upgrade where you will be able to markedly - and I mean MARKEDLY, MASSIVELY - improve the sound of the HK system: START WITH DEFEATING THE ASD & REPLACE THE HK AMP!

I always tell my friends & people who ask - if you must skimp to save $$, buy cheaper amps, receivers, processors, etc.. and spend your bucks on speakers. Car questions, I say replace your speakers FIRST.

But here's the thing... you replace the speakers, you still have to contend with the absolutely SHITTY HK amp & it's piss-poor tune. You HAVE to get rid of this amp.

Proof is in the puddin', puddin'.

Once I replaced the amp, the sound from the HK speakers changed dramatically and I will say this... was ALMOST good enough. I seriously thought, "Holy hell, I don't need to replace the speakers? No way..."

No joke, everything about the HK system changed & massively so for the better. I think anyone looking to do a "first upgrade" will be incredibly surprised & happy with just doing the amp. Even the stock under-seat woofers are punchier & play lower & louder than I thought they could.

I am telling you the weakest link is the HK amp. Ditch it.

How I knew the speakers still had to go....

I do have a golden ear. Plain & simple, I know & love good sound - better said, what's good to me. My ears are different from your ears & so are my tastes when compared to yours.

I put in the Morels. Faded front to rear while giving a good listen to challenging music. Progressive metal is the only way to go.

This is when the HK speakers - TO ME - fell short. If I had nothing to compare them to, I can tell you I would have been at least happy with the HK speakers. But once I heard their shortcomings so plainly, I could not ignore them.

The tweeter is not as harsh as a lot of people think, even for a metal dome tweeter. I ain't saying it's perfect - it was just far smoother with the JLA amp.

But...

There is some shrillness (can correct with EQ)
There is definitely a "nasally" sound. This could not be corrected. This is a fault of speaker construction I am guessing. Something is coloring the sound with crap.
Weak mid-bass response (can correct with EQ, but it's still lacking compared to the Morels.) Morels noticeably "crisper" & "sharper" - very noticeable on drum beats & a bass player that PLAYS the bass. The Morels produce SOUND - no color. Awesome.

First impressions/bottom line:

If you live near the Hartford area - PM me and I will GLADLY let you hear this system. Bass & treble controls are set to flat, and I am not even using the EQ in the DQDX but you would think I am. You will think I have the bass cranked & I promise you, I do not. I can detect some middle bass is missing, but that could be the HK fronts so not adjusting a dang thing until I get the CDTs.

But I am going to bet I will not need to adjust the EQ one iota on the DQDX.

Volume - this system CRANKS. Drowns out road & wind noise not just because of sheer volume, but because of.. I dunno.. I would call it "presence". That HK amp just can't overcome the road & wind noise. Either due to weak power, gain settings (which can't be user-adjusted) or the tune.

I am also not using the DQDX's delay settings. Soundstage is perfect.

I see no need for an amp/DSP that has tuning capability if you get the right speakers and amp in the first place. (There's that heresy again.) In other words... I think the Bimmertech amp is a huge waste of money & time. I see so many people fretting about tunes & "the right settings yet still complaining about crappy sound. Good god... get a simpler, less expensive but quality amp and use your ears!! (Sorry if this upsets you, but it's true. I see all these people getting the Bimmertech amp & then crying about setting it up. Overpriced, still underpowered snake oil. There, I said it.)

If I am going to spend $1,000 on an amp, it better sound PERFECT out of the box. If I have to twiddle & tweak & fret about various settings after spending $1,000, well that tells me right there I am not starting with $1,000 quality. I am SO glad I didn't get sucked into all that plug-n-play marketing hype. (OOPS! I did it again!)

Alpine, Kenwood, JL Audio & some others make great amps at great prices. The thing about the JLA is that it FITS IN THE OEM SPOT! Mount it on a piece of wood, cover it with nice fabric & use industrial Velcro to attach it to the chassis. Done, rock-solid mount - and you can easily take it off by just pulling it up off the Velcro! WOW!

Clarity - this amp is CLEAN AND CLEAR! I got rid of the hiss by correcting the gain settings & this thing is still WAY louder than stock. And plenty loud enough. I still can't believe at first, it was all the same speakers. Seriously.

OH - and the phone? Sounds like people are in the dang car. And I have no Bluetooth echo.

Soundstage, VASTLY improved. The entire windshield is the soundfield. I could not "locate" the speakers, except for truly "fill" sounds, cymbal crashes (high freq sounds are highly directional) or sweeps from left to right. Honestly, the system sounded "right" or "right enough" with just the amp swap.

I have to say, I think most people who are disappointed with the HK system & regretting the purchase will be VERY happy with just an amp swap - AS LONG AS YOU SET IT UP CORRECTLY. Remember - keep the gains low. Trust me, this JL Amp plays LOUD & CLEAN!

Bass response - holy mackerel, no joke, the OEM HK woofers are plenty fine with the right amp. I am not replacing them. The sound is so well-rounded now, punchy, ballsy & full I can't believe it's the same system. I seriously FEEL the bass & it is - believe it or not - very, very musical. (You are not hearing one "BOOM BOOM BOOM" in time with beats like you do with ummm.. those crappy loud-bass systems. You are hearing low-end MUSIC.)

The Morels are KILLER. The mid-bass punch is THERE. No need for high-priced components in the rear.

I can't wait to hear the CDTs now! I will let you know about those once I have them installed.

Thanks for the detailed write up man. You've helped me to validate my plan of going with a JL amp instead of the Bimmertech solution. I just can't grasp the idea of being at the mercy of a proper tune. Will the cdt speakers drop right into the door and sails like the Eton speakers?

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by MASH65

- Technic's amp & active sound defeating harnesses. Get them. Period.
- An amp installation kit. Just get one - it will make your install way easier.
- JL Audio XD600d/V2 amp.
- Audio Control DQDX.


I think the Bimmertech amp is a huge waste of money & time...... Good god... get a simpler, less expensive but quality amp and use your ears!!

I'm missing something. Pricing for these items on a good day:

Technic harness: $50
Amp install kit: $50
XD600d: $400-$500
DQDX: $300-$400

The low end ranges total out to more than the group buy price on a BT amp. The high end is well over that.

I've got no brief against people going whichever way they want, but unless I've missed something, I think you've let hyperbole get the better of you.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

I'm missing something. Pricing for these items on a good day"

Technic harness: $50
Amp install kit: $50
XD600d: $400-$500
DQDX: $300-$400

The low end ranges total out to more than the group buy price on a BT amp. The high end is well over that.

I've got no brief against people going whichever way they want, but unless I've missed something, I think you've let hyperbole get the better of you.

+1

You suggest the JL Audio XD600d/V2 amp at 6x75 RMS @ 4 ohms. You then add an Audio Control DQDX for it's outputs and EQ.

The Technic amp is 55w RMS @ 4 ohms and has DSP and parametric equalization built into the unit.

Both are nice systems capable of hours of listening enjoyment.

[MASHCT]

I got lucky as Crutchfield had a sale - 25% off amp install kits with amp purchase. But even with that, I saw no need to buy a $130 amp install kit when I could get a $60 amp install kit with the same gauge, oxygen-free copper & fuse, etc... etc...

I got the T-Spec 4PK Install kit. I didn't do the cheapest, picking a nice one right in the middle.

Jim

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Mash65,

Great insight and review - I'm wanting more punch from HK sound so I'm thinking just the amp swap. Comments ?

Which amp install kit did you go with ?

Thanks again for taking the time to share

BP

[MASHCT]

OH MAN! I forgot some important notes! Thanks for the questions!!

OK - the door speakers. You will need the spacer found on ebay.
Search ebay for: BMW F30/31/32/22 Speaker Adapter. Sold by 73mustangconv. He also sells the speaker connector adapter pigtails. They're awesome & work perfectly. They're sold in pairs & you'll need them front & rear if you do not want to cut the factory wire. You will not want to cut it as the available wire on the passenger door is VERY short as it is.

You will need to bend the terminal tabs towards the magnet a tiny bit. The speaker fits tightly - but if you center it & tighten the screws partially, then al of the way, it sits flush & perfectly.

I put a ring of electrical sealant putty (you can get it at Home Depot) around the front of the speaker mount to seal it to the door panel & help prevent rattling.

The crossover - I should have taken a picture of how I mounted it. (Dumb of me!) So what I did... When you take the door panel off, on the door panel you will see some thick padding. There is a space behind this padding where the crossover fits PERFECTLY! I attached it to the panel with industrial Velcro.

Did I say it was perfect?

Fitting the tweeter to the sail panel is, well... a teeny bit tricky. It is not drop in, perfect fit. So how I mounted the tweeter...

I broke off a piece of the electrical putty, made a rope & ran it around the edge of the bottom of the cut out where the HK tweeter fit. Lightly pressed the tweeter against the putty. Then I used a hot glue gun to plop a few drops of glue to hold the tweeter in place once I got it positioned how I wanted it.

Be careful when re-assembling the sail panel. Press everything back together gently. Everything fits just fine.

Another great bonus... the CDT Crossover has a nice, rubber-like sticker logo on it. I took it off the xover & covered over the HK logo on the sail. Totally covers it & it fits perfectly in the space. Here I used light duty double-sided sticky tape. (I keep that around to play practical jokes on hairy guys when they fall asleep in my house.)

Two buds of mine went for rides today in the car. They were blown away by the sound. They couldn't believe how clear & powerful it is.

I can't tell you how the sound compares to other brands. I picked CDT Audio because of some reviews I read & the info on their webpage. I just like what I read about their history, quality construction, freq response, sensitivity, silk dome tweeter - and what is clearly bang for buck.

I was considering Focal, but many reviews talk about shrill highs & they are pricey. I would say, based on what I am hearing from the CDTs, any difference with Focal and I would bet any other brand is matter of taste. The CDTs are extremely impressive. (They have no idea I am saying any of this.) No joke, I was shocked at the smooth, warm sound & the clarity. I was not expecting that.

I would the dispersion is amazing. With the fader sent to front, I swear I am still picking up sound from the rear and I can assure you they are off. I kept turning down the rears, thinking they were too loud - until I faded front to rear. I could barely hear the rears! The CDT sound stage is amazing. I can localize them a little & I think that is attributable to the highs.

OH - and set the tweeter setting on the crossover to "0". (Your choices are -3, 0 & +3. 0, for me, was perfect. Wait until break in the mess with EQ & that setting.

Originally Posted by BentZero

Thanks for the detailed write up man. You've helped me to validate my plan of going with a JL amp instead of the Bimmertech solution. I just can't grasp the idea of being at the mercy of a proper tune. Will the cdt speakers drop right into the door and sails like the Eton speakers?

[JoeyF228]

Great info!

I'm looking at some of the new AudioControl amps that have oem integration built in for the channel summing, they only have a 4 channel right now but 6 channel is on the way. I don't have HK but planning on replacing the door speakers with some high quality Morel Tempo Ultra Integra or something similar and will most likely get the Gladen or Match underseat woofers and the regular Morel Tempo for the rear. I think that should be plenty and i agree the BimmerTech and Bavsound products are overpriced for what you get.

[MASHCT]

I was being hyperbolic on purpose. I like to think of myself as a funny bit of sarcastic butt-munch.

Read this if you want, folks. I started the thread so I get to use as many words as I want. (Plus, I say some funny stuff in here.)

I am not saying Bimmertech is crap. I just know I have never heard of them until I started researching how to upgrade a BMW stereo. I'd bet none of us would be remotely interested in an Audiotech-Fischer amp (Bimmertech/Match/Helix) if not for our BMWs & the plug-n-play feature. Plug n play important to you? Go for Bavsound & B'tech. $1000 quality sound? I think you better look elsewhere.

My decision was not about trying to beat/match Bimmertech's price. You're saying the good-day group buy (10-15% off ?) B'tech amp is less than good-day pricing on my options. I am saying, based on the posts I've read, the B'tech amp for $1000 or any money AT ALL, is god-awful because everyone is screaming for "tunes" to make it sound "good".

The JLA amp surprised me, wowed me out of the box & the only help I needed from anyone was the pat on my back when I finished the install & set up myself. (OK, maybe it was a pat on my butt. My friend is gay. He says I am a "bear". Apparently he likes "bears". And maybe it was a massage... I can't remember. I was caught up in the swirl of my awesome sounding system.)

I've not read any reviews of the B'tech amp that I can recall where people were "wowed" out of the box, or even post-tweak. "Good" yes, $1000 good - no. I do know I read a LOT of posts fretting about "TUNE! I NEED A TUNE! OH MY GOD SEND ME A TUNE! ANYONE HELP ME?! NELSON AT BIMMERTECH ISN'T RESPONDING. BUELLER? FRYE?"

I even read posts that AFTER the tune, the sound STILL wasn't "good enough" & folks were asking about other tunes? I was slapping my forehead in disbelief. If $1000 doesn't get you good enough out of the box, you bought the wrong box.

And if folks need a tune & can't use their dang ears, they don't need (deserve?) the capabilities of any $1000 amp. I don't get that - folks think their ears & expectations warrant a $1000 amp - but they don't have the ears to tune it to their liking. You lost me on that one. Some folks have WAY overspent - for plug n play.

If price is the concern & folks really want that B'tech amp then let's get this out of the way...

The Match amp is the same amp as the B'tech, or same enough. It's $730 for the same specs - just no harness & mounting plate. Folks paid $270 surcharge for a mounting plate & a harness & some "magic". And I think $730 for the Match amp is a bit much.

(I read B'tech's post "IT'S NOT THE SAME AMP! Well it is, sort of - but we tweaked it!" So, it's the same amp. And if people are screaming for help to make it sound better after your improvements... Just sayin'. )

I only bought the DQDX ($235) in case an EQ and/or DSP to set the sound stage were necessary, not to match the capability of a DSP/ the B'tech amp. I don't think a DSP is necessary- at all. Unless it can decode DVD Audio, SACD, HDCD & high res music. (Wait - that DSP you paid for doesn't do what $100 DVD players do? What's it DO then!?)

I have not changed one setting on the DQDX EQ, nor the DSP speaker delay settings. Right now, all it is doing is providing me the channel 5 & 6 RCA outs to the JLA amp for the woofers. As I explained, that set up was better than using the JLA amp's summed 1/3 & 2/4 output to 5/6.

Only reason I did the post was to help folks looking for answers - and perhaps, those who also read the various posts about what fits, what sounds good, the less-than-glowing bimmertech posts & are looking for someone to talk about other options.

Jim

Originally Posted by Zooks527

I'm missing something. Pricing for these items on a good day"

Technic harness: $50
Amp install kit: $50
XD600d: $400-$500
DQDX: $300-$400

The low end ranges total out to more than the group buy price on a BT amp. The high end is well over that.

I've got no brief against people going whichever way they want, but unless I've missed something, I think you've let hyperbole get the better of you.

[MASHCT]

Based on the various posts I've read on the Bimmertech amp, seems all it provides is hours of frustration from folks trying to 1) get a tune, 2) improve a tune, 3) try to tune the amp to get it to sound "good".

I am saying out of the box the simple JLA amp crushed it.

It's capable of 75W @ 4ohms; 100W x 6 at 2 ohms. And you can vary impedance by speaker pair.

And it can be bridged for even more power. You could by 2 JLA XD600's for $70 more than the Bimmertech amp & far exceed its capabilities. Throw in REALLY killer speakers, and you're going to blow away the Bimmertech amp.

And not have to deal with any DSP, tune, 32 band + parametric EQ that no one seems to be able to adjust with their own two ears.



TUNE TUNE! MY COUNTRY FOR A TUNE!

Oh wait - I've loaded 1982 tunes into my hard drive I can listen two while you fiddle-faddle around with that B'tech amp for $1000. LOL

Simmah dahn nah. I am just being funny izzall. If the Bimmertech works for ya - great. I am trying to tell people other amps can work for ya so don't be concerned with plug n play.

PEACE!

Originally Posted by OpenAir

+1

You suggest the JL Audio XD600d/V2 amp at 6x75 RMS @ 4 ohms. You then add an Audio Control DQDX for it's outputs and EQ.

The Technic amp is 55w RMS @ 4 ohms and has DSP and parametric equalization built into the unit.

Both are nice systems capable of hours of listening enjoyment.

[MASHCT]

Joey - if you bypass the stock amp (with Technic's harness & ASD bypass harness) you don't need channel summing, except to create the woofer "input" so you have something to output to the amps. Just an FYI.

There is a post by Akuan99 (I think that is his member name) where he replaced the stock, non-HK system. It's a great post - he used Tempo coax's, too.

And I think another guy used Focal's (Integration something-or-other is the name of the speaker).

Jim

EDIT: I FOUND THE LINK TO HIS POST. http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...echnic+harness

Originally Posted by JoeyF228

Great info!

I'm looking at some of the new AudioControl amps that have oem integration built in for the channel summing, they only have a 4 channel right now but 6 channel is on the way. I don't have HK but planning on replacing the door speakers with some high quality Morel Tempo Ultra Integra or something similar and will most likely get the Gladen or Match underseat woofers and the regular Morel Tempo for the rear. I think that should be plenty and i agree the BimmerTech and Bavsound products are overpriced for what you get.

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by MASH65

Based on the various posts I've read on the Bimmertech amp, seems all it provides is hours of frustration from folks trying to 1) get a tune, 2) improve a tune, 3) try to tune the amp to get it to sound "good".

I am saying out of the box the simple JLA amp crushed it.

It's capable of 75W @ 4ohms; 100W x 6 at 2 ohms. And you can vary impedance by speaker pair.

And it can be bridged for even more power. You could by 2 JLA XD600's for $70 more than the Bimmertech amp & far exceed its capabilities. Throw in REALLY killer speakers, and you're going to blow away the Bimmertech amp.

And not have to deal with any DSP, tune, 32 band + parametric EQ that no one seems to be able to adjust with their own two ears.



TUNE TUNE! MY COUNTRY FOR A TUNE!

Oh wait - I've loaded 1982 tunes into my hard drive I can listen two while you fiddle-faddle around with that B'tech amp for $1000. LOL

Simmah dahn nah. I am just being funny izzall. If the Bimmertech works for ya - great. I am trying to tell people other amps can work for ya so don't be concerned with plug n play.

PEACE!

Fair enough, however (still in fairness), you can find the "factory" tune with little effort (5 minutes?) and I spent under an hour in total tuning that by ear with my laptop in the car to get it the way I like it. The Bimmertech amp is also $850 (less with a group buy), not $1000, so it's the same or less than your setup.

But, yeah, "do what works for you" is always a good guide.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by MASH65

There is a post by Akuan99 (I think that is his member name) where he replaced the stock, non-HK system. It's a great post - he used Tempo coax's, too.

EDIT: I FOUND THE LINK TO HIS POST. http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...echnic+harness

Actually he used Morel Maximos, which are Morel's lowest-cost speaker. Still good for the price.

Big kudos for the 'alternative' install, my man. Many people are programmed to do whatever seems easiest and/or 'tailor-made": that's why products like BAVsound and Bimmertech sell. But 'easiest' is not always best. In fact, it's frequently nowhere near best. In the case of both speakers and amp for our cars, just a little more 'doing' and planning can result in a system that is significantly better than any Match/Bimmertech/BAVsound combo. And you, sir, prove it along with a few others on this board.

[BentZero]

Mash, would you say that the eq is necessary? My plan was to go with the jl amp only. I guess i could try that when the time comes and add an eq if needed.

[Fuctifeyeno]

Originally Posted by MASH65

Based on the various posts I've read on the Bimmertech amp, seems all it provides is hours of frustration from folks trying to 1) get a tune, 2) improve a tune, 3) try to tune the amp to get it to sound "good".

I am saying out of the box the simple JLA amp crushed it.

It's capable of 75W @ 4ohms; 100W x 6 at 2 ohms. And you can vary impedance by speaker pair.

And it can be bridged for even more power. You could by 2 JLA XD600's for $70 more than the Bimmertech amp & far exceed its capabilities. Throw in REALLY killer speakers, and you're going to blow away the Bimmertech amp.

And not have to deal with any DSP, tune, 32 band + parametric EQ that no one seems to be able to adjust with their own two ears.



TUNE TUNE! MY COUNTRY FOR A TUNE!

Oh wait - I've loaded 1982 tunes into my hard drive I can listen two while you fiddle-faddle around with that B'tech amp for $1000. LOL

Simmah dahn nah. I am just being funny izzall. If the Bimmertech works for ya - great. I am trying to tell people other amps can work for ya so don't be concerned with plug n play.

PEACE!

Unfortunately i'm finding this out the hard way, mine came with no tune out of the box and sounded like a Krako system on a wall display at an Auto Parts store from the 80's. I'm dating myself but you get the picture. i'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination so trying to adjust each speaker to "sound good" isn't working for me and one thing out of phase or alignment and its sounds like shite. I've literally went through almost 20 different tunes both manufacturer and user and "settled" on one that get me close to what i 'm looking for. On the products page should be listed, take the next 2 weeks off work so you can try and dial in this amp. Needless to say its coming out today, just can't justify the money and time spent trying have decent sound in my car.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by Fuctifeyeno

Unfortunately i'm finding this out the hard way, mine came with no tune out of the box and sounded like a Krako system on a wall display at an Auto Parts store from the 80's. I'm dating myself but you get the picture. i'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination so trying to adjust each speaker to "sound good" isn't working for me and one thing out of phase or alignment and its sounds like shite. I've literally went through almost 20 different tunes both manufacturer and user and "settled" on one that get me close to what i 'm looking for. On the products page should be listed, take the next 2 weeks off work so you can try and dial in this amp. Needless to say its coming out today, just can't justify the money and time spent trying have decent sound in my car.

Yeah, I've heard this song and dance far too many times. I don't want to spend $800 on an amp and then have to pay to get someone to tune it.

[djarchow]

I just installed the bimmertech amp and see the potential for great sound, though my car is far from that point yet.

I don't get the argument being made about tunes. You aren't tuning the anp, you are tuning the sound of the speakers in the car. Any aftermarket amps you install are going to need some sort of adjustments for best sound even if at a minimum you are just adjusting levels between front and back and left to right. That's a tune, albeit a simple one. The advantage of an amp like the bimmertech over a regular amp like the JL is the dsp.. I agree that if you don't know what you are doing it is easy to make the system sound worse; but at least to me, having too much capability is better than having no adjustment at all like the stock system.

[Fuctifeyeno]

Originally Posted by djarchow

I just installed the bimmertech amp and see the potential for great soind, though my car is far from that point yet.

I don't get the argument being made about tunes. You aren't tuning the anp, you are tuning the soind of the speakers in the car. Any aftermarket amps you install are going to need some sort of adjustments for best sound even if at a minimum you are just adjusting levels between front and back and left to right. That's a tune, albeit a simple one. The advantage of an amp like the bimmertech over a regular amp like the JL is the dsp.. I agree that if you dont know what you are doing it ia easy to make the system sound worse:; but at least to me, having too much capability is better than having no adjustment at all like the stock system.

Understood, i'm not saying its a not a great amp with lots of capability like you said but to unlock the capability it what i found difficult. But for $800 i got a box with an amp PNP harness, absolutely nothing else no instructions, no pre-loaded config. if i didn't know about the forums and would've went back the same day. I understand there's adjustments to any aftermarket amp but i would like something in the middle of rocket science and simple bass / treble control. I personally don't want to spend days on end with microphones and analyzers to get this amp to where its acceptable. The pre-canned files from the manufacturer left a lot to be desired. Just my 2 cents, other people may disagree which is fine as well to each his own.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by djarchow

I just installed the bimmertech amp and see the potential for great soind, though my car is far from that point yet.

I don't get the argument being made about tunes. You aren't tuning the anp, you are tuning the soind of the speakers in the car. Any aftermarket amps you install are going to need some sort of adjustments for best sound even if at a minimum you are just adjusting levels between front and back and left to right. That's a tune, albeit a simple one. The advantage of an amp like the bimmertech over a regular amp like the JL is the dsp.. I agree that if you dont know what you are doing it ia easy to make the system sound worse:; but at least to me, having too much capability is better than having no adjustment at all like the stock system.

Well, my argument is about needing special tools and knowledge to tune it. Of course I can adjust bass and treble myself. I can even fiddle with gains and x-over settings. It's the fine tuning that I don't want to deal with or the fear of messing it up. Actually, I'm pretty sure that I'd be capable if I looked into the tools needed and the process. It's just something I'm not interested in doing. I'm also confident that I could find a base tune, but I'd always think that I could be getting more out of the system.

Idk, I haven't completely ruled it out but my original plan was the JL amp, so I'm a bit partial to that path. The geek in me likes the ability to connect a laptop to the amp and fiddle with it though. It's the people that say that it sounds bad even after a tune that turns me off. Also, the jl puts out more power and Morel speakers are power hungry.

[OpenAir]

Originally Posted by MASH65

...Based on the various posts I've read on the Bimmertech amp, seems all it provides is hours of frustration from folks trying to 1) get a tune, 2) improve a tune, 3) try to tune the amp to get it to sound "good"...

You have some good points, but all that really needs to be done with the Technic amp is just set it to flat...Frequency response will be identical (lets not nit-pic over harmonics) between any two good amps.

I've seen several of the "tunes" and they all have adjustments that are in excess of 6db gains, not the best way to start in my opinion. So, to someone who hasn't worked with a spectrum analyzer and/or white noise generators, this could seem overwhelming.

I haven't installed mine yet but when I do I'll start at a flat response and see how things go...more to follow.

[BentZero]

Originally Posted by OpenAir

You have some good points, but at that really needs to be done with the Technic amp is just set it to flat...Frequency response will be identical (lets not nit-pic over harmonics) between any two good amps.

I've seen several of the "tunes" and they all have adjustments that are in excess of 6db gains, not the best way to start in my opinion. So, to someone who hasn't worked with a spectrum analyzer and/or white noise generators, this could seem overwhelming.

I haven't installed mine yet but when I do I'll start at a flat response and see how things go...more to follow.

Keep us posted. You sound like you know that you're doing. Would you post a diy on the process?