Recommendations for Bringing Large CD Collection to HK System |
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12-12-2015, 05:46 PM | #23 |
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Hi Everyone,
This is my first post and I am loving my Midnight blue 228i 6 spd with only 300 miles on it. For sound I load .flac files on a USB drive. So far all resolution PCM files play (I don't want to get too technical but that includes all HiRes formats) but my DSD SACD rips don't. I am now using 64gB USB 3.0 drives and they work fine. I think I will use two and load new music as needed. I read somewhere that someone used a 2tB portable HDD with problems. The manual says not to do this. |
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12-12-2015, 06:37 PM | #24 | |
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12-14-2015, 12:08 PM | #25 |
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My two cents:
- mp3s are the devil's compression algorithm and, IMHO, the single biggest reason OEM car stereos have become even more crappy than they already tended to be. Do not use unless you have to. - The degradation issue is a major reason I don't use FLAC. (For the record: I use AIFF since I'm a Mac. Yes, I know there are tradeoffs with that. But it's most practical for my needs now). - FiiO is an awesome manufacturer; I've met one of the founders. If you really feel a need to add one of its external players, one of those is what I'd choose. - I'm really surprised that the 2-series HU will read lossless files of any sort. That said, I'm very, very skeptical of the actual analog conversion for playback since the HU and DAC downsamples nearly everything else it outputs -- even, as best my ears can tell, CDs played in the transport. I'd really be interested in hearing someone do an A/B between a lossless file USB and an external lossless DMP such as the FiiO, fed through both/either the analog Aux input and (if applicable, depending on the player) the digital USB input.
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12-14-2015, 12:10 PM | #26 |
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Will do, Mike, as soon as my car arrives.
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12-14-2015, 01:21 PM | #27 | |
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As for DSD ... most home transports don't even have this capability (it's fairly new commercially), and many transports that say they read SACD content only actually read the stereo Redbook layer and split it, kind of like how an A/V processor splits a stereo signal into a so-called "multi-channel stereo" signal for 5.x-and-above gear. It's not true SACD. Bottom line: just because something 'says' it does something doesn't mean it does it the way it should. This is particularly true of audio gear. Ya gotta read the fine print and the tech specs, too, at a minimum.
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12-16-2015, 10:03 AM | #28 |
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FYI, to those who are following this thread: a user on a competing 2-series forum has verified that the HU downsamples CDs for playback through the system.
(Background: He has Morel coaxials and a JL Audio 600/6 amp installed so the baked-in OEM DSP isn't a factor. He used a DMP that can play lossless FLAC files and compared it to the CD output. "My jaw almost dropped hearing [the] day-and-night difference," he says. Here's the post, which is in this thread.) The takeaways: - ANY audio inputted into the USB or played in the CD player is downsampled by the HU, likely to 256Mbps or below - The only way to feed lossless music to the system on a stock-outfitted car is through the Aux input, which thankfully appears to be a straight analog connection. - The car's DAC is in the HU, not in its amp or any other modules - If you want HQ digital music in your car, you will need to use gear through the Aux input or install gear downstream from the HU -- which, IIRC, does not have a quality Aux connection beyond the 3.5mm analog stereo jack in the center console. Not good, fellas. Not good.
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12-20-2015, 06:12 PM | #29 | |
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DSD Files
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12-20-2015, 06:20 PM | #30 | |
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Downsampling CD's
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12-20-2015, 09:58 PM | #31 | |
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Just because a player can "process" full 16 bit does not mean that it can output 16-bit analog signal quality. The CD output is definitely inferior even compared to HD radio. I didn't have this problem on CD player on my former E82. I wonder this (CD) and USB input share same signal processing with BT streaming (awful!). |
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12-21-2015, 12:26 PM | #32 | |
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What is not evident and/or stated is if the HU downconverts and compresses for playback. My sense, as well as a few other posters' sense, is that it does -- and A/B tests with an HD DMP seem to bear this out. The reasoning behind it is sound from an engineering perspective, too, for BMW: - compress files for the HDD so more music will fit on it - compress playback to hide the OEM system's sonic deficiencies - Not allow for variable compression playback to simplify the I/O in the DAC One thing I've noticed about the transport is that it reads songs individually on the CD instead of spinning continuously -- you can hear the transport platter spool up between songs. That's a giveaway that the HU is oversampling, of course -- but it's also a giveaway that some sort of per-file action is going on. My guess is that the DAC needs the oversample not just to read data in advance to prevent skips, but needs it to perform the downconversion. (Nice description of DSD, by the way, in the previous post).
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12-21-2015, 04:30 PM | #33 | |
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12-21-2015, 05:03 PM | #34 | |
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That said, a good system -- clear drivers, ample (but not extreme) and clean power, tonal balance, quality programming -- can still make a huge difference in a car, particularly in the lower and higher registers. There is actually plenty to be gained by high-quality digital files if the OEM system is upgraded -- to the point to where the system sounds horrible with lower-quality files if only parts of the OEM system are upgraded. If you know anything about how compression works, you know that the more compression exists, the more ambient and/or white noise tends to replace the missing frequencies to the human ear. I won't get deep into the theory, but basically the higher the quality of programming, the less your ears are 'distracted' by less-than-perfect acoustics. The 256Kbps downsampling for CD rips is a fact; it's in print in the manual I specified. Also, the HK and Hi-Fi head units are exactly the same; it's the drivers and outboard amp that are different. That means the DAC is the same. So don't believe that the HK system has more program-handling capability than the base stereo; it doesn't. All CD transports 'cache' to an extent; that's the nascent definition of oversampling. However, transports typically spin continuously to achieve this at varying RPMs; they don't stop and start like the transport in our HUs does. That behavior has me thinking that the HU does commit each CD file to a memory cache -- but its architecture is only set to do it at 256Kbps based on the ripping, among other things (ears, HD digital file player through the analog AUX input that bypasses the HU's DAC, etc.)
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--Helmets are for closers.-- <<Current: "Blackened" '18 NBM Porsche 718 Cayman ... Gone (but not forgotten): "Blackened" MG '15 228i M Sport w/aFe filter/scoop, Hertz drivers, P3Cars multigauge, other goodies>> |
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12-22-2015, 11:17 AM | #35 |
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I'm late to this thread, but are we saying that the HU *always* converts the Red Book audio from a CD to a compressed format, and then plays the compressed one, even when it's supposed to be just playing the CD rather than ripping it to the internal HDD? That's ridiculous!
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12-22-2015, 03:26 PM | #36 | |
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12-22-2015, 04:31 PM | #38 | |
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And, we'd need to get BMW to admit to the CD downsampling first. I'm sure it's not the only manufacturer doing it.
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--Life is a journey made more exciting with a fast car.--
--Helmets are for closers.-- <<Current: "Blackened" '18 NBM Porsche 718 Cayman ... Gone (but not forgotten): "Blackened" MG '15 228i M Sport w/aFe filter/scoop, Hertz drivers, P3Cars multigauge, other goodies>> |
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12-22-2015, 06:15 PM | #39 | |
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12-22-2015, 07:05 PM | #40 |
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Well, if I can add a personal note... I've had lots of cars in my life. This is my first BMW. I still have to take delivery of my car. And I'm sure I'll love driving it.
But this saga about the sound system has sure taken the bloom off the rose for me regarding BMW. It never occurred to me that this company, which has over the years acquired quite a reputation for engineering excellence, would skimp on a component system, especially one that is an option, offered at a premium price, piggybacking on a company (HK) which has its own reputation for excellence. |
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12-23-2015, 12:17 PM | #41 | |
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Harman Kardon hasn't been respected in audio circles since the mid-1990s. Why? Because it's one of the nascent companies of Harman International, which has a decades-long history of buying brands (Infinity, JBL, dbx, Mark Levinson, and most recently, Bang & Olafsen's automotive arm, among others), cheapening that brand's products, and negatively affecting that brand. About the only brands it owns that hasn't suffered this effect significantly are AKG and Lexicon, IMHO. Frankly, whenever I see HK on anything, I don't even look at it, much less consider it. There are far better options. And BTW, BMW Geniuses frequently don't know as much about our cars as we do -- and as corporate representatives, they are fed their share of misinformation by BMW AG and BMW NA. I'm willing to bet none have any clue about what the HU's outfitted with hardware-wise.
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12-23-2015, 01:56 PM | #42 | |
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As for what you say about the other brands, I think I'll just walk in front of a bus... |
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12-23-2015, 02:19 PM | #43 | |
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(Anecdote: I had a pair of pre-Harman Reference-series Infinity towers that are still the best-sounding speakers I've ever owned (my current Mission bookshelfs are close, though.) KILLED me when a roommate fried 'em to bits with overcompressed TV sound from a soccer match, 'cause I knew there was no getting another pair.) As for BMW; it does far less of the cheapening, IMHO. But there are very few makers of anything in record-setting mass quantities these days that don't cut a few corners. All BMW's done with the 2-series stereos is hedge bets that most buyers won't notice and won't care (and most, frankly, don't).
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--Life is a journey made more exciting with a fast car.--
--Helmets are for closers.-- <<Current: "Blackened" '18 NBM Porsche 718 Cayman ... Gone (but not forgotten): "Blackened" MG '15 228i M Sport w/aFe filter/scoop, Hertz drivers, P3Cars multigauge, other goodies>> |
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12-24-2015, 04:57 PM | #44 | |
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