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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics B58 (M240i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning MHD Vs. Mission Performance

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      05-15-2020, 01:57 PM   #45
AleksanderSuave
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Your intuition is going to sell me on making some bad decisions this weekend if something comes on sale.
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      05-15-2020, 02:01 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave View Post
Your intuition is going to sell me on making some bad decisions this weekend if something comes on sale.
Dorsch Stage 2 pump low pressure line blocks cyl 5 coil/plug? https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1719469

Check this thread. Did you read the edit in my last post about the whiny Dorsch pump?

To be honest I am worried as I would HAAATE to hear that shit or any of that in a convertible.
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      05-15-2020, 05:19 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Dorsch Stage 2 pump low pressure line blocks cyl 5 coil/plug? https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1719469

Check this thread. Did you read the edit in my last post about the whiny Dorsch pump?

To be honest I am worried as I would HAAATE to hear that shit or any of that in a convertible.
I did not see that, but for that price, why not consider the XDI?

The whine would bother me as well. I cant even stand to hear my neighbors mow their lawn.
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      05-15-2020, 05:22 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Dorsch Stage 2 pump low pressure line blocks cyl 5 coil/plug? https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1719469

Check this thread. Did you read the edit in my last post about the whiny Dorsch pump?

To be honest I am worried as I would HAAATE to hear that shit or any of that in a convertible.

the whine would bother me less than the idea of a blocked cylinder.

The lady of the house drives a nissan xterra (second gen). I did the spark plug service on her car, and it was truly a bear. Intake plenum blocked plug #6. I fought with it for an hour, with multiple wobble sockets and extensions.

my buddy who works at the Nissan dealership told me that they book it at something like 3-4 hours..because they will disassemble and re-assemble the entire intake plenum.

I had no desire to partake in that, then saw guys online talking about removing the hood and standing on top of the engine to get better access.

Either way, I dont like it...any option that blocks a cylinder/spark plug/coil pack will make a routine spark plug service an opportunity to remove and break something else that you cannot easily replace or source locally.
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      05-15-2020, 08:17 PM   #49
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I did the xhp tune. Product is decent..I don’t think at $324, that it’s worth the price at 65% of cost of mhd, but having it remove the torque limiter and reflashed stage 2 mhd was nice. Definitely better. I tried to time my 0-60 with a gps app and it literally couldn’t keep up. I hit 60 before the app even registered 40.

Also. I did stage 2 on xhp. Should be good enough

Last edited by AleksanderSuave; 05-16-2020 at 10:08 AM..
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      05-16-2020, 08:09 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave View Post
I did the xhp tune. Product is decent..I don’t think at $324, that it’s worth the price at 65% of cost of mhd, but having it remove the torque limiter and reflashed stage 2 mhd was nice. Definitely better. I tried to time my 0-60 with a gps app and it literally couldn’t keep up. I hit 60 before the app even registered 40.

Also. I did stage on xhp. Should be good enough
Aleksander, a couple of points and may be I am mistaken about this, so please do correct me if I am.

Don't spark plugs need to be "gapped" differently than OEM spec after a car has been tuned for a different performance level?

If such is the case, I will ALWAYS have the shop carry the liability for that, either dealership or post-modified independent shop. Half of the B58 misfire/bad-timing stories on these threads go back to badly gapped plugs; in fact there was a Mission Performance thread that was quite educational, where the user gapped the plugs according to MP's guesswork suggestions and ended up with engine damage. I will look it up and link it. In fact this is the other reason I want a shop involved in all non OEM spec work. Their headache on how they twist around the pump every 15k miles for spark plugs.

Secondly, have you done the tune/DP installation yet? You mentioned MHD St2 in your last post; I am assuming you have the DP in along with MHD St. 2 and xHP St. 2? Overall impressions?
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      05-16-2020, 10:27 AM   #51
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I’m gearing up to do the DP in about an hour.
Figured there wasn’t much risk in trying the tune out for a day or two.

Needed breakfast and coffee before I risk crawling under the car.

As for your question for spark plugs. I haven’t had to manually gap plugs in ages. Most of the nicer plugs you will buy (NGK iridium for example) and the premium Bosch plugs, come pre-gapped.

Iridium plugs are the filet mignon of spark plugs and are actually not meant to be ever needed to be gapped by the end user. In these cases, if you need a different spec, you buy what they call a “step” - up or down, with a different gap from the manufacturer.

In your situation with the turbo and fuel pump upgrade it would make sense to do so, but I’m sure the shop would know the specifics of that.

I’m guessing that exact mission performance situation you described is due to someone not knowing that you shouldn’t try to gap an iridium plug.

I know for a fact that both Denso and NGK specifically caution not to do so in their manuals.

People would be wise to listen to the OEM on that one, rather than an OTS software tuner hypothesizing a solution.

I was following the HPFP thread in f30 forums and they specifically mention the Xdi pump as not blocking the cylinder.

Long term, even without worrying about having to do it yourself, the idea of having to remove the fuel pump multiple times for maintenance (Especially if you will be replacing spark plugs more often, at the shop or diy) invites an increased probability of breaking it or the connecting lines. I don’t believe the HPFP is a part that’s meant to be removed multiple times, like a brake caliper, and Id worry about the fittings more than anything.

My want for XHP was less performance based and more of an insurance policy. As I understand it, there are torque limiters programmed in the TCU. Anything really beyond a stage one tune, is likely pushing those limits and that will throttle down.

The engine fighting with the transmission isn’t good long term. MHD gets around it on stock maps by under-reporting values, similar to a piggyback tune. This is a bandaid. Xhp solves the problem in full by rewriting those torque limits, and allowing mhd tune to both report true values (ideal for logging, tuning, and custom calibration) and ensure the best chance at long term reliability of the transmission.

The immediate benefit of it will be that you will notice a lot smoother shifting, less jerking, which is ideal for a daily driver. I did xhp stage 2 because they make it clear that stage 3 is a racing tune, and in most racing setups, you will trade reliability and comfort in exchange for performance, which I don’t really need as it already performs beyond my expectations on the new tune.

Last edited by AleksanderSuave; 05-16-2020 at 10:33 AM..
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      05-16-2020, 09:40 PM   #52
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Got it installed..wish I paid someone to do it..that downpipe was NOT fun
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      05-17-2020, 12:58 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave View Post
I’m gearing up to do the DP in about an hour.
Figured there wasn’t much risk in trying the tune out for a day or two.

Needed breakfast and coffee before I risk crawling under the car.

As for your question for spark plugs. I haven’t had to manually gap plugs in ages. Most of the nicer plugs you will buy (NGK iridium for example) and the premium Bosch plugs, come pre-gapped.

Iridium plugs are the filet mignon of spark plugs and are actually not meant to be ever needed to be gapped by the end user. In these cases, if you need a different spec, you buy what they call a “step” - up or down, with a different gap from the manufacturer.

In your situation with the turbo and fuel pump upgrade it would make sense to do so, but I’m sure the shop would know the specifics of that.

I’m guessing that exact mission performance situation you described is due to someone not knowing that you shouldn’t try to gap an iridium plug.

I know for a fact that both Denso and NGK specifically caution not to do so in their manuals.

People would be wise to listen to the OEM on that one, rather than an OTS software tuner hypothesizing a solution.

I was following the HPFP thread in f30 forums and they specifically mention the Xdi pump as not blocking the cylinder.

Long term, even without worrying about having to do it yourself, the idea of having to remove the fuel pump multiple times for maintenance (Especially if you will be replacing spark plugs more often, at the shop or diy) invites an increased probability of breaking it or the connecting lines. I don’t believe the HPFP is a part that’s meant to be removed multiple times, like a brake caliper, and Id worry about the fittings more than anything.

My want for XHP was less performance based and more of an insurance policy. As I understand it, there are torque limiters programmed in the TCU. Anything really beyond a stage one tune, is likely pushing those limits and that will throttle down.

The engine fighting with the transmission isn’t good long term. MHD gets around it on stock maps by under-reporting values, similar to a piggyback tune. This is a bandaid. Xhp solves the problem in full by rewriting those torque limits, and allowing mhd tune to both report true values (ideal for logging, tuning, and custom calibration) and ensure the best chance at long term reliability of the transmission.

The immediate benefit of it will be that you will notice a lot smoother shifting, less jerking, which is ideal for a daily driver. I did xhp stage 2 because they make it clear that stage 3 is a racing tune, and in most racing setups, you will trade reliability and comfort in exchange for performance, which I don’t really need as it already performs beyond my expectations on the new tune.
Aleksander, this is very very educational.

At this point, why not go for a custom tune? I mean, you have all the licenses anyway, so it is only a few hundred dollars. Have Wedge or Jordan or Paul custom tune your car?

I have the MHD and the xHP licenses as well. That's F30 thread regarding the fuel pump and your thoughts have made me start looking into XDI. I am not sure which way I will go but the shops are still shut down, so I have time to look around.

How is the sound of the downpipe? You got catless, so is there noticeable smell?

At this point you are on St2 for both xHP and MHD, with a catless DP, so you have the optimal daily driver setup short of a custom tune. Get a Dragy and post some numbers!!!
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      05-17-2020, 08:32 AM   #54
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I’m actually thinking the same thing..custom tune will make sense soon enough.

I’m mulling over fuel pump choices and after that a custom tune will be an obvious next step.

Sound is great, I’ll have to post a video clip later. I was a little nervous to go catless due to already having the dinan axleback exhaust. Mostly others feedback I read on the combo not being great. I guess sound is subjective but I think it sounds fantastic.

I didn’t notice much of any smell while it idled sitting in the driveway. I picked up some scent later on a drive to the store but it also could have been one of the many bubba’d trucks in my area so I’ll have to see if we notice anything with the windows down.

I did some more research and gotta correct what I wrote earlier. I see that fcpeuro does sell gapable iridium plugs. I still wouldn’t be interested in going that route if pre-gapped was on the market.
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      05-17-2020, 09:24 AM   #55
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Also realized in this process that anyone having to upgrade turbos will need to repeat the down pipe upgrade process by about 90% (unbolt clamp from turbo, unbolt mid pipe hanger and mid pipe clamp for positioning, unbolt downpipe hanger bolts, remove air box, etc, potentially drop the entire exhaust for fitting.

BimBim, make sure the shop you have doing the install replaces the gasket from the downpipe to the turbo. I’ve read that guys in the forums reuse them..but looking at it..it seems to be some kind of fiberglass mesh? It doesn’t look like it’s reusable. The cost is about $25 for one..small price to pay for piece of mind. I can find the part number later if you need it..I assume it works like a crush washer, or a toilet wax ring, and should only be used once.
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      05-17-2020, 12:37 PM   #56
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18328612538 is the part number for the gasket.

I ordered mine from BMW of northwest. they are a special order part for most dealers.
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      05-17-2020, 12:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave View Post
18328612538 is the part number for the gasket.

I ordered mine from BMW of northwest. they are a special order part for most dealers.
Oh god Suave you are a Philosopher King! A giant amongst men! Thank you for the part number, I was looking it up on RealOEM, so this just saved me a shit load of time.

I will order it right now!
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      05-17-2020, 04:09 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Oh god Suave you are a Philosopher King! A giant amongst men! Thank you for the part number, I was looking it up on RealOEM, so this just saved me a shit load of time.

I will order it right now!
Just make sure its compatible with your car lol. I didnt consider the fact that it might not be, since its a gasket, and its downpipe to turbo..so I assume they're all the same.

as far as pricing goes..shipping is the killer..if you need to order other stuff to get to free shipping, it helps, but standalone, BMW of Northwest was the cheapest for me. I think it was $23 shipped.

Also..there is a clamp that connects the midpipe to the downpipe. The clamp is welded onto the midpipe, but the bolt in mine was highly rusted..nut just kept spinning. I had to dremel it off.

this is the correct part number 18307620661 - its called a repair kit, so I'm assuming the above issue is a common.


I didnt have the part number or info when I did it, so I substituted..I believe it was a 5/16 by 2 inch (length) carriage bolt, and 2 nuts for peace of mind.

It would be good to have that as a backup. You can always return it if you dont use it, but the alternative is hunting at HD for the substitute parts, which isnt fun.

Finally..If you're dropping the exhaust for the turbo install..you may have rusted flange nuts on the rear-most hangers.

These are actually cheap.

Part number: 18307620661 you will need two of them. got them on ebay for $1.18/piece.

These specifically cannot be sourced locally. Mine were rusted out, only one came off. The other will need to be torched.

Last edited by AleksanderSuave; 05-17-2020 at 04:28 PM..
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      05-17-2020, 04:26 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Oh god Suave you are a Philosopher King! A giant amongst men! Thank you for the part number, I was looking it up on RealOEM, so this just saved me a shit load of time.

I will order it right now!
Just make sure its compatible with your car lol. I didnt consider the fact that it might not be, since its a gasket, and its downpipe to turbo..so I assume they're all the same.

as far as pricing goes..shipping is the killer..if you need to order other stuff to get to free shipping, it helps, but standalone, BMW of Northwest was the cheapest for me. I think it was $23 shipped.
Despite my enthusiasm, I play these things like a grandma. I put the responsibility on the shop I told them exactly what you mentioned, gave them the part number, have them order it. I will more than likely hear back mid week, but small things like this make a huge difference.
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      05-17-2020, 04:31 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimBimM2 View Post
Despite my enthusiasm, I play these things like a grandma. I put the responsibility on the shop I told them exactly what you mentioned, gave them the part number, have them order it. I will more than likely hear back mid week, but small things like this make a huge difference.
I edited the post after a few times, when I remembered theres a few more parts you might want to get in advance.

It would help to get them all. My car is a (12/2016 production) 2017 with only 26k miles but the amount of rust on the parts mentioned was incredible. Most would not pass being re-used.
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      05-17-2020, 08:07 PM   #61
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Cold start video, after downpipe install
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      05-18-2020, 09:24 AM   #62
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Cold start video, after downpipe install
That is a savage sound for a savage little beast! I also like the fact that it doesn't sound like a retarded try-hard hooligan but quite on the other end of the spectrum: a sleeper. Good job man!
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      05-18-2020, 12:04 PM   #63
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I am very happy with the overall results!

A few friends have said it resembles a v8.

I have a Silverado V8 parked next to it and love the sound of that truck on startup so that’s a good sign in my book.

Definitely not the ricer gunshot and pop sounds that I’m seeing all the n55/n54 videos demonstrating so I’m happiest about that.

Last edited by AleksanderSuave; 05-18-2020 at 01:48 PM..
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      05-18-2020, 11:29 PM   #64
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Quote:
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I am very happy with the overall results!

A few friends have said it resembles a v8.

I have a Silverado V8 parked next to it and love the sound of that truck on startup so that’s a good sign in my book.

Definitely not the ricer gunshot and pop sounds that I’m seeing all the n55/n54 videos demonstrating so I’m happiest about that.
Yours is an XDrive right? Roughly how much do you think you are putting down to the wheels?

And yes, believe me, that sounds like a V8. A bastard of a V8
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      05-19-2020, 11:07 AM   #65
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Yup, it is an xdrive, I wouldn’t have it any other way

I wish I knew where to even speculate on WHP...gotta find some dynos from others.

I am gonna see if I can upgrade to the Supra pump if the opportunity presents itself soon
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      05-19-2020, 12:05 PM   #66
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It doesn't sound like a V8 to me, but certainly a mean 6. Honestly, I think inline and flat 6s sound better than V8s. I'm kinda over the Magnaflow/Flowmaster thing.
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