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      06-10-2021, 04:48 PM   #1
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MAD Charge pipe and Intercooler

Has anyone tried installing MAD (Mastery of Art & Design) charge pipe or intercoolers on their M235i? Looking for some input on fitment and driving experience.
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      06-11-2021, 07:44 AM   #2
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It's inexpensive - I would personally recommend the VRSF combo in the same price range.
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      06-11-2021, 08:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
Has anyone tried installing MAD (Mastery of Art & Design) charge pipe or intercoolers on their M235i? Looking for some input on fitment and driving experience.
We have sold hundreds of them, spot-on fitment, lifetime warranty and great customer support with a fast response.
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      06-11-2021, 11:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
We have sold hundreds of them, spot-on fitment, lifetime warranty and great customer support with a fast response.
Hey Mike, I am based in Canada. Do you know how much can be expected to pay in customs (if anything)?
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      06-11-2021, 01:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
Hey Mike, I am based in Canada. Do you know how much can be expected to pay in customs (if anything)?
I believe its ~10%
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      06-14-2021, 07:53 AM   #6
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OP- another Canadian tested the MAD intercooler, and it's results were pretty underwhelming in my opinion. It's not suited for anything other than stage 1.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...458121&page=37

I would strongly recommend paying the extra for something like the VRSF or the like.
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      06-14-2021, 08:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
OP- another Canadian tested the MAD intercooler, and it's results were pretty underwhelming in my opinion. It's not suited for anything other than stage 1.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...458121&page=37

I would strongly recommend paying the extra for something like the VRSF or the like.
the results posted show a significant improvement over stock, the 5" MAD is a stage 1 intercooler. You can get away with using it on stage 2 (daily drivers that do no push the car on regular basis) but it will not perform nearly as well as the 7" MAD.
For best performance on FBO, you'll need the 7" MAD

The same goes for other brands but I'm not allowed to go into details on the forums as last time I did so, I got reported.
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      06-14-2021, 01:00 PM   #8
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I ended up getting the 5" MAD as it seemed like a good deal that was offered by XPH. I only wanted a Stage 1 tune and had no intention to upgrade my intercooler but ended up getting it because it looked like I might save a few $$ if I want to go to Stage 2 in the future. I am just a daily driver with occasional highway pulls and I won't be tracking it so hopefully it will work out fine.
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      06-14-2021, 01:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
I ended up getting the 5" MAD as it seemed like a good deal that was offered by XPH. I only wanted a Stage 1 tune and had no intention to upgrade my intercooler but ended up getting it because it looked like I might save a few $$ if I want to go to Stage 2 in the future. I am just a daily driver with occasional highway pulls and I won't be tracking it so hopefully it will work out fine.
You're in Canada, so your ambient are probably not as high as some other regions, but it's not really a good intercooler. It's temps go up more than 15 degrees in one gear, which means repeated pulls or multi-gear pulls are likely not happening, especially if you're running a Stage 2 tune (I have personal experience in this)

I would have recommended the BMS or better yet the VRSF Competition for Stage 1/2 applications, while keeping costs low. Either way, it's already done and I hope it works out for you.
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      06-14-2021, 01:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
I ended up getting the 5" MAD as it seemed like a good deal that was offered by XPH. I only wanted a Stage 1 tune and had no intention to upgrade my intercooler but ended up getting it because it looked like I might save a few $$ if I want to go to Stage 2 in the future. I am just a daily driver with occasional highway pulls and I won't be tracking it so hopefully it will work out fine.
You did the right thing by getting the MAD 5". It's a major improvement over the stock intercooler without the added weight and turbo lag caused by the larger intercoolers.

The fact that you are running a stage 1 AND in Canada makes the 5" option a no-brainer
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      06-14-2021, 02:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
You're in Canada, so your ambient are probably not as high as some other regions, but it's not really a good intercooler. It's temps go up more than 15 degrees in one gear, which means repeated pulls or multi-gear pulls are likely not happening, especially if you're running a Stage 2 tune (I have personal experience in this)

I would have recommended the BMS or better yet the VRSF Competition for Stage 1/2 applications, while keeping costs low. Either way, it's already done and I hope it works out for you.
Its almost 30C (86F) today! Canada is warming up. But it varies a lot in my region, between -40 to +35 C (-40 to +95 F), depending on the season.
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      06-14-2021, 02:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
You did the right thing by getting the MAD 5". It's a major improvement over the stock intercooler without the added weight and turbo lags caused by the larger intercoolers.

The fact that you are running a stage 1 AND in Canada makes the 5" option a no-brainer
Thanks! waiting anxiously for the parts.
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      06-14-2021, 02:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
Its almost 30C (86F) today! Canada is warming up. But it varies a lot in my region, between -40 to +35 C (-40 to +95 F), depending on the season.
It's almost a 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) IAT rise in a single gear pull, it's not going to survive stage 2 very well with those temps.

Don't take my word for it, check the thread I posted. The test car went from 80-100F in a single gear at 69F. With that intercooler, if you're at 86F today, you're going to be at the absolute limit in one pull if you're lucky.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=809

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasnub View Post
MAD 5” intercooler and chargepipe, Stage 1 93 Bootmod3 logs in Sport+. 69F ambient. IATs still rise similarly to stock tune logs I posted but recovery time is excellent. I ran the logs a bit longer so people can see the return back to starting IAT. Generally temps were back down to original IATs within a minute or so on the freeway and about 10 degrees over ambient.

Overall I think it’s a solid choice for a stage 1 DD in a cool to moderate climate. I am satisfied with the results given my driving style and climate. The 20ish degree rise in IATs during the pull is probably not what you want if it’s consistently 90+ degrees outside. Same thing if you’re running on track- the increasing temps on throttle are probably more than you’d want. However, If you’re juicing it every couple minutes through a gear or two, it brings you back to an almost even starting point after a short period. I’m not sure what the recovery looks like on larger ICs or those with higher fin density, but my guess based on sheer physics is that the MAD unit is probably recovering more quickly than them, making it a better DD option. Additional lag over the stock IC is not noticeable.

Run 1
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60b7...729b0c51245fef

IAT rises from 72 to 98. Recovers to 81 within seconds off throttle. Recovers to 75 within a minute.

Run 2
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60b7...90c6105d476a45

IAT rises from 80 to 100. Recovers within seconds to 90. Back to 80 within a minute.

Run 3
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60b7...90c6105d476a49

IAT rises from 80 to 102. Recovers within seconds to 91. Recovers to 80 within a minute.

Run 4
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60b7...90c60fd5b8e4cd

IAT rises from 80 to 103. Recovers to 91 within seconds. Recovers to 80 within a minute.
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      06-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
It's almost a 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) IAT rise in a single gear pull, it's not going to survive stage 2 very well with those temps.

Don't take my word for it, check the thread I posted. The test car went from 80-100F in a single gear at 69F. With that intercooler, if you're at 86F today, you're going to be at the absolute limit in one pull if you're lucky.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=809
I agree with you about the MAD 5" is for a stage 1, but your numbers are off. during all 4 runs, IAT went up 15 degrees, not 20. Considering stock rises by 40 degrees, that's a big improvement.


OP said he might go to stage 2, currently, he is on a stage 1. A 5" intercooler like the MAD is the best option for him right now.
If he goes to stage 2, a larger intercooler will provide better results.
i do not see a benefit in advising him to get a larger than 5" intercooler as it will add a lot of weight, cause a much a slower recovery, and turbo lag.
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      06-14-2021, 02:42 PM   #15
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Thanks for your input guys. I am assuming I can run these datalogs with bootmod. Once I have everything set up and wrap my head around datalogging I will try to post some graphs as well.
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      06-14-2021, 02:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabootarman View Post
Thanks for your input guys. I am assuming I can run these datalogs with bootmod. Once I have everything set up and wrap my head around datalogging I will try to post some graphs as well.
Correct about bootmod3
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      06-14-2021, 06:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I agree with you about the MAD 5" is for a stage 1, but your numbers are off. during all 4 runs, IAT went up 15 degrees, not 20. Considering stock rises by 40 degrees, that's a big improvement.
True - I'm basing this on the exact quote of the poster of those logs. Increases were 15-18F during 1 3rd gear run, and it took over 1 minute (80secods) to reach back to it's starting temps.

This is a direct result of the intercooler's ability to cool itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
OP said he might go to stage 2, currently, he is on a stage 1. A 5" intercooler like the MAD is the best option for him right now.
I disagree - there is no determent for going with a reasonably larger intercooler that offers more headroom. You sell a few different options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
If he goes to stage 2, a larger intercooler will provide better results.
i do not see a benefit in advising him to get a larger than 5" intercooler as it will add a lot of weight, cause a much a slower recovery, and turbo lag.
Sorry Mike, I respectfully disagree. You keep saying this and it's not based in any fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LYTSOUT View Post

Performance: Perfect. Zero increased turbo lag. Interestingly, even before flashing to Stage 2, my butt dyno suggested more throttle response and top end. But the logs told a much more quantitative and reassuring story. For sake of simplicity, I'll distill the logs down to just the IATs in pulls from 2k in 3rd through redline in 4th...

Ambient Temp - Hardware - Tune - IAT 2k in 3rd - IAT top of 3rd - IAT top of 4th - (IAT delta from bottom of 3rd to top of 4th)
72F - Stock - OEM - 90F - 112F - 117F (+27F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ed4...729b6c7129048e

72F - Stock - Stage 1 - 86F - 129F - 140F (+54F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ed3...90c66237c1d0f8

82F - VRSF 6.5" - OEM - 104F - 95F - 100F (-4F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eda...729b0f7178b9f1

82F - VRSF 6.5" - Stage 1 - 101F - 97F - 109F (+8F)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eda...90c634ff221de4

79F - VRSF 6.5" - Stage 2 - 92F - 92F (0F) ...*there was too much traffic to get into fourth gear so a third gear pull was the best I could do*
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f4f...90c61f061ddbc8

I'm no expert at reading datalogs, but to me, those results are extremely impressive. Generally-speaking, they tell me two things:
1) The OEM intercooler is actually underpowered for even an OEM tune, let alone Stage 1.
2) The VRSF 6.5" is just about perfect for a Stage 1 or Stage 2 application. In a third gear pull, the IATs actually drop in the OEM and Stage 1 tunes and remain rock steady in Stage 2.
No lag, excellent resistance to heat soak, no proof that the smaller cooler cools down quicker either.
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      06-14-2021, 09:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
True - I'm basing this on the exact quote of the poster of those logs. Increases were 15-18F during 1 3rd gear run, and it took over 1 minute (80secods) to reach back to it's starting temps.

This is a direct result of the intercooler's ability to cool itself.

I disagree - there is no determent for going with a reasonably larger intercooler that offers more headroom. You sell a few different options.

Sorry Mike, I respectfully disagree. You keep saying this and it's not based in any fact.


No lag, excellent resistance to heat soak, no proof that the smaller cooler cools down quicker either.
Edit: I have deleted my other response because i don't want to sound disrespectful.
We'll just agree to disagree.

Intercoolers are all about balance, for example: if intercooler A offers 5 degrees better cooling than intercooler B but is 10 lbs heavier, in most cases intercooler B is the better option. Of course, it's not this simple, as a lot of other factors play a role. That's why you cant rank intercoolers by looking at the IAT difference only or else the largest box with the most fins will win. No engineering or R&D needed.

This is also why some companies offer a number of different intercoolers (some offer up to 4 for the same car). Its because there is no 1 solution fits all and you cant just increase the size of the core with no downside as you mentioned in your post earlier.

By your logic, no company should offer a 5", what's the point when you can get a 6" with no downside.

Wagner tuning run millions of simulations during their R&D to figure out the best volume and core density. They use very expensive machines to do so and hire the best engineers. It sounds like they are wasting their time, all they have to do is cram as many fins as possible into the core and they got themselves the best intercooler on the market.
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