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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics N55 (M235i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning XHP Traction Control / Power Loss Questions

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      05-21-2020, 10:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
For one, 5.0 Coyote`s have a whole slew of issues. They're a great naturally aspirated motor, but they have issues with piston rings and rod bearings. I sure as hell wouldn't strap a blower to one and expect it to last longterm.

I firmly believe that if you want 20% more power than stock, you're better served buying a faster car. It's a lot cheaper in the long run and fewer headaches. Financially, it makes a lot more sense to buy a used M3/4 if you want a reliable 450-500whp in a BMW. Sure, you can buy a Pure Stage 2 turbo and make that level of power but the car will undoubtedly have far more issues and you'll have to trouble shoot a lot of things and very likely spend more money doing it. With the M3/4, it's essentially a Stage 2 setup and is plenty powerful for the street.
Sorry one more question I meant to ask-

Will running the XHP tune on my tranny make it more resilient to hard driving by increasing torque limits and improving shift points or will this place more burden on the transmission by forcing it to perform harder?

Basically does the tune HELP the tranny long term or HURT the tranny long term?

Not sure if I would be asking too much of it, or preparing it to handle its workload better.
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      05-21-2020, 11:03 AM   #24
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So when moving to Sport mode (not +) you have push traction once to remove or is default on ? (appears on for me, I think)

You also can hold for 5 second to turn everything off, but only in Sport+ mode ?

I have no intention of turning all off, and even at track will use standard Sport mode (dont have LSD). And while I've had enough squirrely cars in past, this computer stuff tougher to gauge.

Thx for clarification.
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      05-21-2020, 12:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
So when moving to Sport mode (not +) you have push traction once to remove or is default on ? (appears on for me, I think)

You also can hold for 5 second to turn everything off, but only in Sport+ mode ?

I have no intention of turning all off, and even at track will use standard Sport mode (dont have LSD). And while I've had enough squirrely cars in past, this computer stuff tougher to gauge.

Thx for clarification.
Tested it yesterday. Pressing DTC button from any drive mode puts you directly to "Traction Mode" which is not visible in the mode hierarchy in the system until you do this. Very bad user experience and very over complicated.

Then pressing and holding for 5 seconds turns both the DSC and its underling DTC completely off. In this mode (also not seen anywhere in the menus or guides) all the nannies are OFF (tires will spin and car will slide with no help) but the ADB/ E-LSD is turned on. Everyone on here says the E-LSD is garbage. Your engine mapping and throttle input are also reduced one level for easier manipulation when in this "ultimate" mode.

Sport+ gets sharper settings for engine map and throttle input because with the help of the nannies you can tolerate these settings being turned all the way up.

Sport+ does have DTC enabled by default, so this means you have "traction" but are not in "traction mode" because your other attack parameters are still turned all the way up whereas in pure "traction mode" those things are reduced.

Basically, if you want DTC on, which means you want some wheel spin and some freedom over your car, you have to pick between "Traction" for less aggressive and "Sport +" for all out aggressive driving.

If you turn DSC off, it by nature turns DTC off and E-LSD on. Hold on for dear life because your 400whp vehicle is now under only your control!!!

Vert very bad user interface and over complicated system. All drive modes should be visible at all times in the menus and interfaces, and DTC should just be something you enable or disable manually per drive profile. Same for E-LSD. They made it way too hard to understand lol
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      05-21-2020, 12:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
So when moving to Sport mode (not +) you have push traction once to remove or is default on ? (appears on for me, I think)

You also can hold for 5 second to turn everything off, but only in Sport+ mode ?

I have no intention of turning all off, and even at track will use standard Sport mode (dont have LSD). And while I've had enough squirrely cars in past, this computer stuff tougher to gauge.

Thx for clarification.
Pressing the traction button doesn't add another mode on top of Sport. Pushing the traction button puts you in Traction mode (burbles, light steering, soft shocks, Comfort throttle, and reduced nannies). Holding the traction button for 5 seconds puts you in DSC Off (burbles, heavy steering, hard shocks, Comfort throttle, eLSD, and no nannies).

If you don't want all the nannies off, then you want either Sport+ or Traction.

Sport+ is pretty awesome with a true LSD out back. There's far less nanny intervention than was there before the LSD. It's my favorite driving mode after adding the LSD.

I can't understate how awesome the LSD is. https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1493261
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      05-21-2020, 12:57 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCrow7xx View Post
Sorry one more question I meant to ask-

Will running the XHP tune on my tranny make it more resilient to hard driving by increasing torque limits and improving shift points or will this place more burden on the transmission by forcing it to perform harder?

Basically does the tune HELP the tranny long term or HURT the tranny long term?

Not sure if I would be asking too much of it, or preparing it to handle its workload better.
It's my understanding that the 8AT is pretty beefy and not many have failed. Most people that have trouble with their automatics is because the transfer case failed.

Transmissions are rated in torque. A 93 octane Stage 2 flash tuned M235 is making around 380whp/420wtq. That's about 450hp/500tq at the flywheel. These cars are rated at 320hp/330tq, but in reality they closer to 365hp/390tq in stock form (310whp/330wtq stock).

So yes, your car is pushing quite a bit more torque than stock. Heat is the big killer in automatics. I think if you aren't tracking the car or driving it hard all the time and are replacing the tranny fluid every 30k miles, it should be fine.

If your plans are to make big power, 6MTs are the way to go. They can handle a ton more torque. You can't slam shift them with that sort of power because you'll kill the syncros, but they are far better at tolerating big power and why almost all of 600hp+ turbo BMWs out there are 6MTs.
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      05-21-2020, 01:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCrow7xx View Post
Tested it yesterday. Pressing DTC button from any drive mode puts you directly to "Traction Mode" which is not visible in the mode hierarchy in the system until you do this. Very bad user experience and very over complicated.

Then pressing and holding for 5 seconds turns both the DSC and its underling DTC completely off. In this mode (also not seen anywhere in the menus or guides) all the nannies are OFF (tires will spin and car will slide with no help) but the ADB/ E-LSD is turned on. Everyone on here says the E-LSD is garbage. Your engine mapping and throttle input are also reduced one level for easier manipulation when in this "ultimate" mode.

Sport+ gets sharper settings for engine map and throttle input because with the help of the nannies you can tolerate these settings being turned all the way up.

Sport+ does have DTC enabled by default, so this means you have "traction" but are not in "traction mode" because your other attack parameters are still turned all the way up whereas in pure "traction mode" those things are reduced.

Basically, if you want DTC on, which means you want some wheel spin and some freedom over your car, you have to pick between "Traction" for less aggressive and "Sport +" for all out aggressive driving.

If you turn DSC off, it by nature turns DTC off and E-LSD on. Hold on for dear life because your 400whp vehicle is now under only your control!!!

Vert very bad user interface and over complicated system. All drive modes should be visible at all times in the menus and interfaces, and DTC should just be something you enable or disable manually per drive profile. Same for E-LSD. They made it way too hard to understand lol
Ok thx - just read all of that, still confused lol. I thought Sport+ turned all the nannies off, in fact in 8 months, never have put in that mode.

How do get most WITHOUT turning off DSC ? I thought that was Sport (NOT "+") without Traction pressed.

(Most being not taking off DSC, but everything else at max)

Guess just clicking on Sport and leaving DSC and esp. DTC on best bet for now, and dont hold for 5 seconds...and the chart on page 1, how do you get between all 3 sport modes ?

Can you run Sport+ and leave DTC and DSC on ?

Last edited by 4Hockey4; 05-21-2020 at 01:38 PM..
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      05-21-2020, 02:00 PM   #29
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I'm googling everywhere lol Seems like most folks drive in Sport+ and only sport in rain ? So confused arrrgghhh

Ok found Sport mode configure in settings.

Heading to track this weekend, I'll leave in Sport mode for now, and try and figure out Sport+ (limited DTC) later

whew

Last edited by 4Hockey4; 05-21-2020 at 02:06 PM..
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      05-21-2020, 03:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
Ok thx - just read all of that, still confused lol. I thought Sport+ turned all the nannies off, in fact in 8 months, never have put in that mode.

How do get most WITHOUT turning off DSC ? I thought that was Sport (NOT "+") without Traction pressed.

(Most being not taking off DSC, but everything else at max)

Guess just clicking on Sport and leaving DSC and esp. DTC on best bet for now, and dont hold for 5 seconds...and the chart on page 1, how do you get between all 3 sport modes ?

Can you run Sport+ and leave DTC and DSC on ?
See post #11. It tells you exactly what each mode does (except ECO). There are no other driving modes or other ways to modify the modes. What you see is what you get. You can't be in Sport+ then hit the traction button expect it to dial back the nannies more. Hitting the traction button takes you out of Sport+ and puts the car in Traction mode.

Sport+ is not all nannies off. There's still intervention and it won't allow you to get way out of control. If you want to get the most out of the car without DSC Off then Sport+ is the mode you want. Sport mode sucks during hard driving. It's very invasive.

I don't run in any of the nanny modes (Comfort, Sport) whether it's wet, dry, snow, etc. Even with higher than stock power, these cars are controllable. You just need to learn what the car is going to do. It takes baby steps to develop that feel. Many of us drove high powered cars without stability control and even ABS. We lived.
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      05-21-2020, 03:33 PM   #31
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It takes baby steps to develop that feel. Many of us drove high powered cars without stability control and even ABS. We lived.

As have I in past, but none handled like these. (except friends 86 911 Turbo lol) Not sure i want to run Sport+ 1st day at track, when I've been playing in regular Sport all along.

Thx for all the info
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      05-21-2020, 03:50 PM   #32
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^ditto this. I have got into the habit of holding the button/using DSC off all the time. I prefer the linear throttle, need the help ADB provides since no LSD yet, and still have burbles. I haven't taken the car through winter yet but in the dry there's really no need for nannies unless your driving entirely way too fast on public roads or are tracking

To inject some advanced observations into this, I have 2 questions. First, what is the difference between engine mapping? I can't tell a difference between sport+ and DSC off. Second, I know shift speed is reduced one unit in DSC off, but I'm finding it hard to tell if there is a difference with XHP s3. I think there still is, but with linear vs sport+ throttle it makes it hard to tell. It's pretty easy to induce shift brap (timing retard?) in either mode. Sport+ seems to shift faster but I'm not sure if it's due to the throttle curve
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      05-21-2020, 04:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
Ok thx - just read all of that, still confused lol. I thought Sport+ turned all the nannies off, in fact in 8 months, never have put in that mode.

How do get most WITHOUT turning off DSC ? I thought that was Sport (NOT "+") without Traction pressed.

(Most being not taking off DSC, but everything else at max)

Guess just clicking on Sport and leaving DSC and esp. DTC on best bet for now, and dont hold for 5 seconds...and the chart on page 1, how do you get between all 3 sport modes ?

Can you run Sport+ and leave DTC and DSC on ?
See post #11. It tells you exactly what each mode does (except ECO). There are no other driving modes or other ways to modify the modes. What you see is what you get. You can't be in Sport+ then hit the traction button expect it to dial back the nannies more. Hitting the traction button takes you out of Sport+ and puts the car in Traction mode.

Sport+ is not all nannies off. There's still intervention and it won't allow you to get way out of control. If you want to get the most out of the car without DSC Off then Sport+ is the mode you want. Sport mode sucks during hard driving. It's very invasive.

I don't run in any of the nanny modes (Comfort, Sport) whether it's wet, dry, snow, etc. Even with higher than stock power, these cars are controllable. You just need to learn what the car is going to do. It takes baby steps to develop that feel. Many of us drove high powered cars without stability control and even ABS. We lived.
Yeah see this world of nannies and computer control is crazy. I am just old enough that my first few cars in life didn't have any of this stuff. Granted they weren't 400 wheel either lol but you get the just.

I am going to flash the tranny tomorrow with XHP map 3 / stage 3.

Were going to find out how much abuse these autos will take.
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      05-21-2020, 04:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
It takes baby steps to develop that feel. Many of us drove high powered cars without stability control and even ABS. We lived.

As have I in past, but none handled like these. (except friends 86 911 Turbo lol) Not sure i want to run Sport+ 1st day at track, when I've been playing in regular Sport all along.

Thx for all the info
Yeah all you need to know is:

DSC = full help mode

DTC = reduced help mode

Off = no help mode

The DSC-DTC relationship is very very confusing and BMW should have done better with their naming conventions and show ALL modes on the GUI in the car including Traction and DSC Off.
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      05-22-2020, 03:30 PM   #35
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Read some more. When going from Sport to Sport+, when DTC activates, it reduces effect of Driving Dynamic control/ASC, DSC still active.
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