[The_otherM235i]

Hey everyone


I plan to track my 2016 M235i this year sometime when our local tracks open back up. I've done quite a bit to the car from a preformace stand point but am now looking to beef up my easily faded brembos.


Currently on my car i have the stock pads and rotors, rotors are in good shape so i plan to do steel braided lines along with some Castrol SRF fluid and wear sensors.


At first i was going to go with the Hawk 5.0HPS pads as they were pretty well priced and seemed like a good track/road pad,

I'm worried i'm gonna eat them up on the track as i am quite hard on brakes. I then looked at full blown track pads and while they are quite expensive I don't plan to track my car every weekend so i do need a suitable street pad, again; I'm quite hard on the brakes with my style of driving and corner entry.



Can anybody recommend a street/track pad for me? Any idea how well the hawk 5.0's preform? EBC has some nice pads that also are in the same price range. I think with some slightly more aggressive pads along with the SRF fluid i should be pretty okay to hold on any fade i find on the track.


Thanks guys!

[Maynard]

I ate a set of Hawks in less than a season (4x2day schools) my first year so they probably aren't going to be much better for you. Last season I switched up to Ferodo 2500 and was quite happy with them - I don't swap pads and they work very well on the street too (good from cold). At about half worn they started to squeal, but I suspect re-bedding would have fixed it. I think I'll get another 2-4 days out of them so they are wearing pretty well too. There are others that people like, often a bit further into track-worthy, but then also less streetable for the daily; if I were going any more hard core I'd start swapping pads trackside - it isn't that hard. Zeckhausen Racing was very helpful for me, so give them a call.

I think you can be fine w// Motul 660 or equivalent; make sure that whoever does the swap has ISTA or software to run the sequence that flushes the ABS out. Since the racing fluids aren't "low viscosity" I flush/swap mine back to factory stock for winter. And based on what my shop tells me when they run that sequence, there is a fair bit of fluid that 'hides' in the system and you need to run a bit more than you'd think to get it all - I think a late bolus of the abs stuff - if you are impatient you think you cleared it, when it is really just sitting in/near the caliper. I really miss multicolored brake fluid so you had a true telltale.

Where do you track? I may be hopelessly optimistic that anybody will get on track this year, but had wanted to try getting up into Quebec (tramblant? Mosport?). I'm down in Syracuse so it has all been at Watkins Glen, and everybody says it is good to start getting some variety.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by The_otherM235i

Can anybody recommend a street/track pad for me?

It's my opinion that there is no such thing as a street/track pad, and that every pad marketed as such is in fact a street pad. That might not hold for lightweight, low-powered cars like the Miata, but it does for our heavy, high-powered cars.

The rotors on my car, and therefore the pads themselves (at least where their faces meet the rotors), regularly reach temps north of 1400° F. You can expect similar results. Having been coached by pros in proper braking technique, I'm very easy on the brakes – and I'm still seeing very high temps on a handling track with only one genuinely heavy braking zone. I've run the DTC-70s for 16 track days and still have over half their thickness left. Because one of the more important things a brake pad does is to act as a heat sink (i.e., it reduces the heat being transferred into the brake fluid), I change my pads out at half-thickness. I leave the race pads on 365 and modulate my street braking to almost eliminate squealing.

Below is Hawk's friction/temperature chart; it shows that the HPS 5.0 is totally inadequate to the demands our cars put on their braking systems. I recommend that you give the DTC-70 (or its equivalent) your serious consideration.



FWIW, generally speaking, everybody tends to really like the pad they're using, and if you ask ten instructors at an event which pad they're running you'll likely get ten different answers. Most tried a handful of pads before settling on one manufacturer's line and then tried different pads in the line before choosing one to stick with. In different cars, I've run Hawk's HT-10, DTC-60, and now the DTC-70.

I recommend calling the guys at Bimmerworld for a suggestion (https://www.bimmerworld.com/). They know BMWs cold, and they know our cars. They should ask you one or two basic questions and then recommend something that is quite likely to work very well for you. One question they'll ask is which tire you're running. Pad aggressiveness and tire grip need to be reasonably matched so that one isn't overwhelming the other. When going to the track is the subject, Bimmerworld is a terrific resource to this community.

Originally Posted by Maynard

Since the racing fluids aren't "low viscosity"...

I'm not sure that's the case. For example, AP Racing's Radi-Cal R4 fluid is billed as having "an extremely low viscosity". Essex Parts' How to Choose Racing Brake Fluid makes that claim on this page: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...ng-brake-fluid.

[kthor703]

I agree with a lot of what Dradernh said. There really isn't a street and track friendly pad if you plan to run a competitive pace. If I were to do anything with a compromise, I'd look at the Ferodo DS2500. I've tried Hawk Street and Race and it wasn't up to snuff. I believe it is discontinued now. I wouldn't mess with HP+ either.

I run hawk DTC 60 now.

[The_otherM235i]

I think i might look at the DTC 60's and 70's. Hawk does make some good pads but our brakes over heat very quickly. I didn't know there was software to push out the fluid left in the abs....Is this connected through the OBD port and then selected through the controller? my buddy and i were just gonna crack the bleeder screws with all 4 wheels off and press the brake pedal to drain it all out. Taking the lines off as well.


Thanks for the tips guys!

[Maynard]

Yes, it is a software program either thru the ISTA factory system or some of the code readers can do it.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by The_otherM235i

...our brakes over heat very quickly.

Yes, they do, and this puts a premium on using them properly. If you've seen any of the photos of no-longer-beautifully-blue calipers online, they're generally that way because drivers have been beating the tar out of their braking systems. That's simply not necessary, and it makes for slower lap times.

Unfortunately, there's little instruction in this area. Braking and other major considerations are why early-on I hired pro race drivers to coach me. They didn't turn me into the stud that I could never be, but they did help me to get the basics down pat.

In the context of braking, each of them said the equivalent of this to me: "I earn my living based upon what I can do in the braking zones." Translation: these guys and gals are magicians when it comes to managing the braking experience. They have a touch and feel that we will never have, and that's just how it is. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them.

Having sat in the passenger chair...once...while one of them was demonstrating his abilities in this regard, I was truly astounded. My only regret is that I don't have it captured on video. It was magical...nay, transcendental...as though I was sitting on the shoulders of an Olympic gymnast or pole vaulter while he or she when through her routine. It really was that eye-opening; not that I expected to be able to go out and replicate that pro's performance...ever. Mind you, that pro told me that he's in a race car on the track 300 days each year.

Because of the manner in which pros instruct us, that was a one-off experience that I suspect most clients never have the opportunity to enjoy. After running the car at his 8/10ths, the pro said to me: "We don't normally do this with clients, but I know that you're mature enough not to go out and try to replicate what I've shown you." No kidding, Mr. Pro! lol

This subject is not rocket science, but it does involve learning the basics, exhibiting self-discipline, and, above all else, being willing to focus on getting better. Believe me, there is no greater thrill than nailing a braking zone. And what that will do to your lap times is incredible.

Absent hiring a pro driver for personal coaching, I highly recommend Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets website: https://speedsecrets.com/. Ross is THE man when it comes to communicating what it take to become a faster and, more importantly, safer driver on the track.

BTW, if anyone is interested in hiring a professional race car driver to instruct them, there are two things to be aware of:

1) They're expensive (but then you already knew that, right); and,

2) Find three other drivers to share the cost with. Then, sit in on each other's video and data de-briefing sessions with the pro. You'll get just as much out of the other drivers' de-briefing sessions as you will your own.

So, there it is: top-of-the-line professional instruction at a price almost any of us can afford. There's nothing stopping us, and the payoff is huge. When I say there's nothing stopping us, what I mean is that pro racers earn their day-to-day living instructing people like us – they don't make it driving for their big-time teams. That's just how it is.

Sorry if I've gone off-track here; but, mind you, I've spend tens of thousands on pro instruction, and all of it was cheap for what I got out of it! I recommend it highly.

[The_otherM235i]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Yes, they do, and this puts a premium on using them properly. If you've seen any of the photos of no-longer-beautifully-blue calipers online, they're generally that way because drivers have been beating the tar out of their braking systems. That's simply not necessary, and it makes for slower lap times.

Unfortunately, there's little instruction in this area. Braking and other major considerations are why early-on I hired pro race drivers to coach me. They didn't turn me into the stud that I could never be, but they did help me to get the basics down pat.

In the context of braking, each of them said the equivalent of this to me: "I earn my living based upon what I can do in the braking zones." Translation: these guys and gals are magicians when it comes to managing the braking experience. They have a touch and feel that we will never have, and that's just how it is. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them.

Having sat in the passenger chair...once...while one of them was demonstrating his abilities in this regard, I was truly astounded. My only regret is that I don't have it captured on video. It was magical...nay, transcendental...as though I was sitting on the shoulders of an Olympic gymnast or pole vaulter while he or she when through her routine. It really was that eye-opening; not that I expected to be able to go out and replicate that pro's performance...ever. Mind you, that pro told me that he's in a race car on the track 300 days each year.

Because of the manner in which pros instruct us, that was a one-off experience that I suspect most clients never have the opportunity to enjoy. After running the car at his 8/10ths, the pro said to me: "We don't normally do this with clients, but I know that you're mature enough not to go out and try to replicate what I've shown you." No kidding, Mr. Pro! lol

This subject is not rocket science, but it does involve learning the basics, exhibiting self-discipline, and, above all else, being willing to focus on getting better. Believe me, there is no greater thrill than nailing a braking zone. And what that will do to your lap times is incredible.

Absent hiring a pro driver for personal coaching, I highly recommend Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets website: https://speedsecrets.com/. Ross is THE man when it comes to communicating what it take to become a faster and, more importantly, safer driver on the track.

BTW, if anyone is interested in hiring a professional race car driver to instruct them, there are two things to be aware of:

1) They're expensive (but then you already knew that, right); and,

2) Find three other drivers to share the cost with. Then, sit in on each other's video and data de-briefing sessions with the pro. You'll get just as much out of the other drivers' de-briefing sessions as you will your own.

So, there it is: top-of-the-line professional instruction at a price almost any of us can afford. There's nothing stopping us, and the payoff is huge. When I say there's nothing stopping us, what I mean is that pro racers earn their day-to-day living instructing people like us – they don't make it driving for their big-time teams. That's just how it is.

Sorry if I've gone off-track here; but, mind you, I've spend tens of thousands on pro instruction, and all of it was cheap for what I got out of it! I recommend it highly.

Thanks for that! btw i see you've deleted your sunroof, how much weight did you save and was it worth it? How long did it take?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by The_otherM235i

Thanks for that! btw i see you've deleted your sunroof, how much weight did you save and was it worth it? How long did it take?

My car came without a sunroof. Whoever ordered it built that way had his head on straight, didn't he!?!

I believe that in a recent post msendit indicated you'd be looking at an 80# savings.

Yeah, here's the thread: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1710037.

[Tsauce12]

What are people's thoughts on doing Pads AND Rotors or seating properly? I've always struggled with this.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Tsauce12

What are people's thoughts on doing Pads AND Rotors or seating properly? I've always struggled with this.

I've run Hawk's race pads for many years. After installing a fresh set and taking two laps easy, they're ready to rock 'n roll.

I leave the pads on for the street, but I'm guessing if an owner changed pads at the track and both sets were Hawks, the above scenario would still hold.

You might ask HP Autosport (a forum sponsor) or Bimmerworld about this issue; each can answer any questions you might have.

[msendit]

Originally Posted by Tsauce12

What are people's thoughts on doing Pads AND Rotors or seating properly? I've always struggled with this.

You mean changing rotors every time you change pads? That sounds overkill. If you're worried about deposits on the rotors, run your new race pads below operating temperatures for a bit -- say street driving to the track. They scrub much harder when cold and should clear up most deposits -- you'll notice by the sound. Carrol Smith (yes, that one) has a pretty good explainer: here.

Bedding tends to vary by pad. For some, you can get away with just a couple of laps at easier pace -- on this car, that's worked for Pagids and Hawks for me. For others, you might want to stick closer to the manufacturer procedure -- when I forget to bed the RE10s I run now, they tend to be a bit unpredictable for the first hour or so, especially on the release.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by msendit

Carroll Smith (yes, that one) has a pretty good explainer: here.

Smith's stuff is great, isn't it – what a terrific explainer he was!

If someone prefers learning by video, this Essex Parts explainer of the standard bedding-in procedure is pretty good, too:

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by msendit

….. Carrol Smith (yes, that one) has a pretty good explainer: here....

Great article. I'd been thinking about this same thing recently - used to be common knowledge but I don't think I ever saw such a nice concise writeup of it. It has been on my mind because it seems like I've recently seen several discussions of 'warped rotors' in auto mags and it always gets under my skin (IIRC, several replacement rotors on long term test cars?). He doesn't go into it in much detail, but you can also get that pulsing pedal from hub/rotors that aren't true (or a little crud under the rotor so it isn't sitting flat to the hub), both things that speak poorly of a manufacturer, rather than 'warped rotors' that implicate the drivers.

[MarcoZandrini]

I run Performance Friction -08 pads. I can do lap after lap at Virginia International Raceway without a hint of fade. I run stock rotors and fresh Motul RBF600.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by The_otherM235i

Hey everyone


I plan to track my 2016 M235i this year sometime when our local tracks open back up. I've done quite a bit to the car from a preformace stand point but am now looking to beef up my easily faded brembos.


Currently on my car i have the stock pads and rotors, rotors are in good shape so i plan to do steel braided lines along with some Castrol SRF fluid and wear sensors.


At first i was going to go with the Hawk 5.0HPS pads as they were pretty well priced and seemed like a good track/road pad,

I'm worried i'm gonna eat them up on the track as i am quite hard on brakes. I then looked at full blown track pads and while they are quite expensive I don't plan to track my car every weekend so i do need a suitable street pad, again; I'm quite hard on the brakes with my style of driving and corner entry.



Can anybody recommend a street/track pad for me? Any idea how well the hawk 5.0's preform? EBC has some nice pads that also are in the same price range. I think with some slightly more aggressive pads along with the SRF fluid i should be pretty okay to hold on any fade i find on the track.


Thanks guys!

A pad that is both track and road-friendly? Ferodo DS2500. Much better performance on and off the track than HP5.0 but more dust(a good trade-off). There is currently nothing like the DS2500 on the market. Hawk HP Plus was the closest pad to it.

[pikcachu]

EBC Yellow are pretty decent and relatively cheap....

PFC 08 are probably the best ... but they are not cheap at all

[Maynard]

I'm running those Ferodo 2500's for HPDE and I love them, and for street driving they are as good as factory (noisy after they wear some, but it may just be the need for re-bedding). Haven't tried others to compare (except for some Hawk pads that got eaten up too soon, but that was with the puny stock 228 setup where a street/race pad was just inadequate).

[K8_M235i]

I really enjoyed my pagid rsl29s, but they are definitely as loud as trains.

I'm trying a set of dtc70s since they were on sale on tire rack and I like them in my e36 race car.

[4Hockey4]

I was going to go StopTech sport, mostly street, few light track days....really looking for something thats not loud, but better than stock. Will switch to Modul fluid also.

Sounds like Ferodo DS2500 is best hybrid. (I know there is not, but I'm gonna shoot for best street/track car I can lol)

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

I'm trying a set of dtc70s since they were on sale on tire rack and I like them in my e36 race car.

I've been pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to keep the DTC-70s quiet in city traffic. I'm generally going with the flow, so it's been easy to lift a bit earlier than usual and then modulate pressure up and down to ensure minimal-to-no squealing.

I do occasionally still get squealing in the final two car lengths of a stop. That's really annoying - sort of like getting a bad grade in school!

Originally Posted by 4Hockey4

Sounds like Ferodo DS2500 is best hybrid. (I know there is not, but I'm gonna shoot for best street/track car I can lol)

Please let us know how they perform for you, esp. at the track.

Also...dust...let us know if you find it tolerable. The DTC-70s I've been using produce the stuff in massive quantities; however, I knew they would as I'd run DTC-60s at the track.

[NISFAN]

If you plan to do many track days, I would advise you to invest in a dedicated track pad set. No road pad can cut the mustard on a hard track session and no track pad is road friendly.

Not much worse than beating up a set of road pads in 10 laps and having to nurse a long pedal for the rest of the session.