[x233]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Interesting thread, and very timely for me as I'm about to adopt one of the options for increasing negative camber - thanks x233 !

However with the pricing for those knuckles (even if I don't have them already installed on my car by the factory, which is pretty easy to check), it seems cheaper to go with the F8x longer LCAs with TSes. I got a quote from my Dealer for all the parts involve in LCA swap (less the spacers required), and it's some Euro 550 (including VAT).

As to the camber-adjustable bushes, everyone is talking about the Superpro version (part SPF4303K) - why not the Powerflex ones which are claimed to be 8% stiffer than OEM (part PFF5-1902G here: https://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-ser...-3304/1.html)? Any particular reason for that? The camber adjustment range is the same for both (-0.5 - 0.5) deg...

Piotr

My car is xDrive. Therefore, I cannot use the easy fix that RWD guys tend to use (F8x longer LCAs with TSes). At the same time, I would rather avoid camber plates on a street car. That's how I got into this territory.

Knuckles: you really have to be extra careful here and check what's really on your car from factory. Even my BMW official importer/dealer had no idea what was there until we got underneath the car and checked. Their program says it's supposed to be this or that but in reality it may be different (we discovered this with shock absorbers, arms, etc.) so I wouldn't trust RealOEM and even whatever the BMW service use for their repair/replacement work. Check first.
In my case I changed the knuckles not because I thought it was such a great idea but because I damaged the ones that came from factory, so going minus 30 min was a no brainer as long as they needed to be replaced anyway.

Camber-adjustable bushings: At the time the initial post was written there were no PowerFlex parts available for F2x series. SuperPro was the only obvious solution. I got SuperPro adjustable bushings, an extra pair LCAs, pressed in the bushings, but never got around to actually installing them on my car. Yet. In fact, I have a complete set of polyurethane bushings for my car from SuperPro but now I am in no hurry to put them to use.

Stiffness: when we pressed them in we got an impression that these SuperPro may be a bit softer than stock. Just an impression. Stiffness and added camber may have both positive and negative effects. Usually, when you change one part you then need to make some other, perhaps minor, changes to your suspension and/or alignment to counter some of the negatives that may come from it (front end may become less grippy if less compliant or exceedingly sensitive to steering inputs, etc).

PowerFlex: I love PowerFlex generally and know them to be very high quality products. I've used them many times before, including camber-adjustable bushings and never had a problem with them. Top quality. In fact, if they had been available back then I would have gone with PowerFlex because of my previous experience with them.

Polyurethane in general: don't believe it doesn't affect comfort and noise. It does. A lot. The effect of proper stiff polyurethane all around, say black series, instead of rubber on comfort would be similar to throwing in some thick sways bars and having sports coilovers at their mid-stiff setting. Granted, it does improve responsiveness and handing significantly, but forget about comfort. (I am talking about the whole kit, not just one bush, but even one bush can have a noticeable effect). It may be great for a purpose-built car that's going to see track but for a street car... it's a matter of perception and priorities.

Same about camber plates. They do improve handling and responsiveness significantly but comfort is the first thing to go. Also, you don't use camber plates for leisurely drives around town. They are meant for cars that are going to be abused. They do get abused, they break and they need maintenance.

My car is a street car. It does see a lot of enthusiastic driving, aggressive even, but also it's the car that takes me to work everyday, groceries, kids, etc. Somehow, I was able to get what I want from a street car without ruining comfort: that is Eibach springs, softer/shorter bump stops, adaptive suspension, knuckles, M-Performance brakes with steel brake lines, brake bias re-coded, Michelin PSS 225/40/18 and 245/35/18, cold pressures 2.6 front and 2.35 rear, on 8x18 et38 front and 9x18 et44 wheels, alignment at -1 camber front, 0.04 toe-in front, -1.55 camber rear, 0.09 toe-in rear. It handles beautifully, has a nice sharp turn-in, licks around tight corners, you'd have to struggle to get any understeer unless on wet pavement, nice tighter feel of the steering wheel, the rear can fairly easily be thrown out on throttle, stops really well with almost no dive, it's my dance partner, and yet I have to see the excessive outside wear of the front tires everyone's talking about.

ps: I must be one of those rare individuals who buys a bunch of stuff for his car and then most of it just sits around in the garage. I've got M-Perf LCD, Bilstein shocks, 2 sets of sway bars, bunch of wheels and tires, polyurethane for the whole suspension, spare controls arms, brake pads, some small parts, and now most of it just sits there useless. For now.

[Anthony235]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

That would be spendy. $$$
I think its the reluctance to deal with EDC to go that road (coilover). Most camber plates with stock shock seem to have minor to serious shortcomings.
That leaves LCA/TS

Takes 15 minutes to code out EDC. If LCA/TS is solution why does it seem we have so many multiple page threads about what the solution is?

I appreciate all the effort everyone put into finding a solution, but just seems people don't want to face the reality haha.

If you want to run a aggressive square setup or do multiple track days a year get a proper coilover setup. No NVH, extra clearance, camber adjustment, height adjustment, damper adjustment.

If you're not hunting laptimes or just want a no headache street car then just throw some lowering springs on and enjoy the car.

[Anthony235]

$380 for bushings installed plus cost of alignment for 1* of camber. You guys are insane

Either wait for the SPL street arms to come out or get some entry level coilovers that come with camber plates.

[MyM235i]

Originally Posted by Anthony235

Takes 15 minutes to code out EDC. If LCA/TS is solution why does it seem we have so many multiple page threads about what the solution is?

I appreciate all the effort everyone put into finding a solution, but just seems people don't want to face the reality haha.

If you want to run a aggressive square setup or do multiple track days a year get a proper coilover setup. No NVH, extra clearance, camber adjustment, height adjustment, damper adjustment.

If you're not hunting laptimes or just want a no headache street car then just throw some lowering springs on and enjoy the car.

I have coded my car for other things that's not a worry for me. I was just speculating why people don't go coilover. I think people, myself included, are looking for a half measure. Coilovers being seen as the track extreme. Even zipphreak stated that camber plates are for track users and a waste of money for DD. There simply isn't a track near me. We used to have one now its a landfill . So what does someone do to stop trashing tires that doesn't want clunks and rattles? Also I don't want to lower the car because winter.
I agree with you and zip that value for dollar coilover is best. What ones retain stock ride height? Most indicate a drop of at least an inch.

[Anthony235]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

I have coded my car for other things that's not a worry for me. I was just speculating why people don't go coilover. I think people, myself included, are looking for a half measure. Coilovers being seen as the track extreme. Even zipphreak stated that camber plates are for track users and a waste of money for DD. There simply isn't a track near me. We used to have one now its a landfill . So what does someone do to stop trashing tires that doesn't want clunks and rattles? Also I don't want to lower the car because winter.
I agree with you and zip that value for dollar coilover is best. What ones retain stock ride height? Most indicate a drop of at least an inch.

Coilover are not just for extreme track use. Can easily be as comfortable as the OEM suspension. Also I don't know of any coilover they won't let you run factory height. Unless you go specifically for coilovers meant to slam the car to the ground.

Don't want to trash your front tires on a street car? Leave the camber stock and get more even tire wear. No reason why you would eat up the front tires on the street with stock camber. Unless your daily commute is a canyon road and you're driving it at a 10/10 pace 24/7. Would be interested in seeing anyone show me their front tires that are chewed up from only street driving.

I've had 5 or 6 coilover setups on various cars. So I'm a little biased, but all these headaches and ROI seem silly to me to get 1* of extra camber on a car that only ever sees street use.

The only reason why I have coilovers on the car now is because I'm competitive with myself in regards to laptimes, but if my car was only ever used on the street I would just do a spring/wheel spacer and nice stagger setup. If you don't want to lower the car then I would just do a spacer and some nice wheels (or just leave the oem wheels on). With the money saved I would do a nice street brake pad and a nice summer tire (RS4, etc).

[MyM235i]

Originally Posted by Anthony235

Don't want to trash your front tires on a street car? Leave the camber stock and get more even tire wear. No reason why you would eat up the front tires on the street with stock camber. Unless your daily commute is a canyon road and you're driving it at a 10/10 pace 24/7. Would be interested in seeing anyone show me their front tires on a street car that are chewed up from only street driving.

I guess I'm that guy. They aren't chunking but the shoulders are wearing waaaay faster than the rest. Is this simply soft PSS sidewall or lack of camber?

I agree coilover are fine for DD. Most use them for a fairly substantial drop so I wasn't sure if they accommodated stock ride height. I have never tried. I'm from the VW world so BMW is new and expensive lol.
I am saying that's the perception (track only). I'm answering the question of why I think others are going down this road.
For me I figured there would be a half measure. Plus when I started looking there weren't many options. Its gotten better as the market has matured.

[MyM235i]

Looks like I could get the BC racing coilovers with swift springs for $1900.00 Cdn VS LCA/TS for $1300.00. I could lower the car slightly and have full camber adjustment.This seems to be what I have been waiting for. When I was shopping coilovers I couldn't find anything sub $2k. Canadian dollar isn't strong at the moment. Reviews of the BC seem to be great for the street and ok for the track. I'm happy with that.
What spring rates would be good for aggressive street very ocasional track?

[Anthony235]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

I guess I'm that guy. They aren't chunking but the shoulders are wearing waaaay faster than the rest. Is this simply soft PSS sidewall or lack of camber?

I agree coilover are fine for DD. Most use them for a fairly substantial drop so I wasn't sure if they accommodated stock ride height. I have never tried. I'm from the VW world so BMW is new and expensive lol.
I am saying that's the perception (track only). I'm answering the question of why I think others are going down this road.
For me I figured there would be a half measure. Plus when I started looking there weren't many options. Its gotten better as the market has matured.

Originally Posted by MyM235i

Looks like I could get the BC racing coilovers with swift springs for $1900.00 Cdn VS LCA/TS for $1300.00. I could lower the car slightly and have full camber adjustment.This seems to be what I have been waiting for. When I was shopping coilovers I couldn't find anything sub $2k. Canadian dollar isn't strong at the moment. Reviews of the BC seem to be great for the street and ok for the track. I'm happy with that.
What spring rates would be good for aggressive street very ocasional track?

I would look at your front toe settings and tire pressures first. 0 toe and raise your front tire pressure.

I've ran BC multiple times in various cars with the swift springs. Perfectly fine setup for the street and track duty for most drivers. I waited like 6 months for BC to release their coilover with the 2015+ m235 5-bolt top hats. I was actually the person that informed them the top hat changed in 2015. Got tired of waiting so went with a different company. You should think about saving some $$ and skipping the Swift spring upgrade.

[MyM235i]

Originally Posted by Anthony235

I would look at your front toe settings and tire pressures first. 0 toe and raise your front tire pressure.

I've ran BC multiple times in various cars with the swift springs. Perfectly fine setup for the street and track duty for most drivers. I waited like 6 months for BC to release their coilover with the 2015+ m235 5-bolt top hats. I was actually the person that informed them the top hat changed in 2015. Got tired of waiting so went with a different company. You should think about saving some $$ and skipping the Swift spring upgrade.

I have played with tire pressure and not gotten much out of it. Based on others having the same issue I figured it was camber over toe. Thanks for the tip on the springs. I would have thought the swifts were worth the upgrade. If not I save $400.00. Any thoughts on spring rates? I have fired an email to Mod Bargains to confirm 5 bolt top hats. Waiting on a response. BCracing Canada indicates 2014+ so that leaves it unclear with them.

[Anthony235]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

I have played with tire pressure and not gotten much out of it. Based on others having the same issue I figured it was camber over toe. Thanks for the tip on the springs. I would have thought the swifts were worth the upgrade. If not I save $400.00. Any thoughts on spring rates? I have fired an email to Mod Bargains to confirm 5 bolt top hats. Waiting on a response. BCracing Canada indicates 2014+ so that leaves it unclear with them.

Could be camber, but I highly doubt you're running positive camber. If you're daily commute is like most people then 98% of your driving is with your wheel straight. So corning should have minimal impact on your tire wear in the grand scheme of things.

Makes me believe you need to up the pressure and maybe adjust toe. I run 40+ psi cold on the street to over inflate my tires and promote more even tire wear since I run so much camber.

For most people I don't think the swift springs are worth the upgrade. Mod Bargains still advertising the coilovers as 2014+ ?? I ordered from them originally and worked with them and BC to provided measurements for the 5-bolt top hats. I've had good experiences with Mod Bargains. I worked with Alan Wei there for many of my parts and build.

[Sypher]

I would go for a coil over setup, but that would move me into another class for my local autox. Camber plate and bushing is fine though. I'll be getting camber plates at a later time; they're not exactly cheap especially in Canada. For now, I'll run the bushings (not the LC/TS since those don't work on xdrives, but I agree, if going that route, might as well go camber plates for an extra ~$100).

[Sypher]

Just had an alignment done. With the adjustable bushing maxed out on camber and front toe set to 0, the max camber achieved was -0.8 and -0.9. I thought these cars came with -0.7 in the front stock (anyone know what stock really is?)? Also, in the back they were only able to get -1.65 max with toe in set at 1/32 on both side. How do people get more than -2 in the back?

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

I guess I'm that guy. They aren't chunking but the shoulders are wearing waaaay faster than the rest. Is this simply soft PSS sidewall or lack of camber?

Both

- MPSS have dual compound with softer rubber on outside shoulder - OEM spec is load index 88 so can cause outer shoulder to roll as sidewalls flex more.

- Std cars front camber range is -0'53" +/- 30" so its common for cars to come from factory with ~ -0'30". IMHO, if the car has more -1deg front camber it helps reduce wear significantly.

Originally Posted by Anthony235

I would look at your front toe settings and tire pressures first. 0 toe and raise your front tire pressure.

Good advice + plus consider trading up to MPSS 225/40/18 XL ie LI of 92 [stock LI is 88] - sidewalls much more stable....

[MyM235i]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Both

- MPSS have dual compound with softer rubber on outside shoulder - OEM spec is load index 88 so can cause outer shoulder to roll as sidewalls flex more.

- Std cars front camber range is -0'53" +/- 30" so its common for cars to come from factory with ~ -0'30". IMHO, if the car has more -1deg front camber it helps reduce wear significantly.



Good advice + plus consider trading up to MPSS 225/40/18 XL ie LI of 92 [stock LI is 88] - sidewalls much more stable....

Thanks to both. I will up the tire px and maybe just try an alignment to start. Then when these tires are toast move up on load index for firmer sidewall.

BP- The tolerance may be why some are having more wear than others. I do corner aggressively but its only my fronts that are experiencing the accelerated wear.

I contacted BC racing and they don't have the 5 bolt top hat as yet. IIRC there is another forum member on here testing a set on a 2016 MY so maybe they are soon to be available.

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by MyM235i

BP- The tolerance may be why some are having more wear than others. I do corner aggressively but its only my fronts that are experiencing the accelerated wear.

Yes - makes sense given that std car's handling balance is defaulted towards understeer and the wider 245/35/18 at the back are XL rated at 92 LI already.

FYI - up front I have F8x LCA and TS installed and run -2deg camber c/w 0.05 deg toe-in and have way more steering feel, response off centre is much criper, front end grip is huge so turns-in and holds lines [I'm a practioneer of "single input steer"] much better with std F2x arms

[x233]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Both

- MPSS have dual compound with softer rubber on outside shoulder - OEM spec is load index 88 so can cause outer shoulder to roll as sidewalls flex more.

- Std cars front camber range is -0'53" +/- 30" so its common for cars to come from factory with ~ -0'30". IMHO, if the car has more -1deg front camber it helps reduce wear significantly.

Good advice + plus consider trading up to MPSS 225/40/18 XL ie LI of 92 [stock LI is 88] - sidewalls much more stable....

Something else: if you bought MPSS new, that's never been on a car yet, you might notice the outside tread is not deep at all from factory. It looks kind of slanted towards the outside even though it's never been driven yet. Do a few hundred miles, get it rubbed off just a bit and it already may look like the outside is shot although in fact it comes that way from factory. It's true for the default 225/40/18 star spec MPSS. In addition to that, yes, the outside sidewall is soft.

Quite telling may be the fact that when the subject of excessive outside wear is brought up it is usually in the context of the MPSS tire.

I think the default front camber on these cars is about -0.30. The default front toe-in is about 0.07. Make the front toe-in 0.04 and you already work towards decreasing outside wear and get a bonus of sharper turn-in and less understeer without making the car skittish. If you get lowering springs you are likely to end up with the front camber up to about -1 degree which helps. My sticker says the recommended front tire pressure is 2.4 (35) but I find 2.6 - 2.65 (38-39) to be the sweet spot which, again, helps sharper inputs and less initial understeer while the front tires still hold well and the braking is still optimal.

XL rated fronts: I was wondering about that and asked on some other thread if anyone tried. Don't think there was a consensus or real life experience to speak of. Most people never bothered.

[x233]

Originally Posted by Sypher

JAlso, in the back they were only able to get -1.65 max with toe in set at 1/32 on both side. How do people get more than -2 in the back?

Rear: I've done alignment about a dozen times trying to find out what works best for me, never tried to go beyond -2 in the rear. Funny thing is they usually can do -2 no problem but on a couple of occasions, same rack, same car, same amount of fuel in the tank, same everything, they'd max out at -1`50", then I'd drive around a bit and they were able to do whatever I wanted again. Toe-in at the default 0.09.

[icin235]

I did a search and couldn't find any discussion on this:

Has anyone used the factory eccentric camber bolts for adjusting camber up front?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...h/33306784983/



I ordered a pair. I'll post my thoughts once installed.

[icin235]

Originally Posted by icin235

I did a search and couldn't find any discussion on this:

Has anyone used the factory eccentric camber bolts for adjusting camber up front?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...h/33306784983/

I ordered a pair. I'll post my thoughts once installed.

These do NOT work as advertised on ECSTuning's site.
Brought them with me when I got my Dinan springs installed and the mechanics said these cannot be used in the manner claimed. They only work in the rear.
I will be returning them.

[Xwang]

Using the camber bushings to correct the side by side camber and caster differences on my car:
https://postimg.cc/7fmXqkKP
("inc. ruota ant." means front camber, "incidenza montante" means "caster angle", "convergenza" means "toe angle") and to give some more front camber, I suppose that the bets way to obtain it is to put the bushing axis around 45 degree from the horizontal line. This will have an effect on the front roll axis location and I do not know if it is better to put the bushing axis above or below the eccentric one. Moreover I wonder if it is better use also the caster eccentric bushings set in the same way so that to keep the wheel centred in the fender and to minimize geometry changes when the wheel is steered.
Any suggestion?

[madmax240]

Following this thread as I'm chewing through tires just commuting.


For the price, getting coil overs is probably where I'll end up. but I saw these Power Flex bushes online.


https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/sho...road-series-2/


https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...F34-F36_2.html


https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...3-F34-F36.html


All seem to be adjustable and for different parts of the suspension. any advice on the best way to go with these? Also, anyone with long term feedback on adjustable bushes? i.e. 12 months or more of use, how are they holding up???
thanks

[x233]

Originally Posted by madmax240

Following this thread as I'm chewing through tires just commuting.


For the price, getting coil overs is probably where I'll end up. but I saw these Power Flex bushes online.


https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/sho...road-series-2/


https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...F34-F36_2.html


https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...3-F34-F36.html


All seem to be adjustable and for different parts of the suspension. any advice on the best way to go with these? Also, anyone with long term feedback on adjustable bushes? i.e. 12 months or more of use, how are they holding up???
thanks

The first thing to do would be to check your wheel alignment, bring it back within spec, make a little less front toe-in, say go from 0.07 to 0.03, keep the rear toe-in right in the middle of the green zone or bring it in the smallest increment, keep the rear camber reasonable.

As for the bushings, go for the adjustable front camber ones. That's give you up to a half degree negative camber, and will improve both handling and wear.

Coilovers? It's good idea regardless of what else you do or not do but not because of the tire wear. I'd consider KW DDC ones for a daily. Pricey but worth every penny. Transformative, indeed. Alignment again.

If I had to do it again, I would also add bushing inserts or harder bushings for the rear subframe. That would make the rear sharper and improve the handling without compromising much comfort, compliance and grip of the rear wheels. But I'm too lazy to do it now that I no longer drive that car very often.

Quality and longevity. I use adjustable SuperPro bushings (no longer available) and they held fine for over a year I think, when I still drove the car daily and drove it hard. I only had these same PowerFlex bushings for a short while before switching to SuperPro. Reason: the PowerFlex black series (which these are) may seem a bit stiff (daily comfort) although they did feel sharper, but I had a choice so I tried different ones and stayed with those.

PowerFlex usually are high quality products. I've had them for on different cars, still do, have a car that's totally on the black series and only had to change one of them after months and months of extreme abuse.

Something else you may consider: a tire with a harder shoulder. If you run the oem Michelin PSS, there's a 92Y XL rated front tire available (as opposed to the softer oem 88Y rated) but that'll impact comfort slightly, more so if you choose these black PowerFlex bushings.