[2Banger]

As title says im very curious as all these companies claim piggy back etc.

[2Banger]

So many reads but no comments...

[allthatisntnow]

Any tune is detectable if they look hard enough. The car logs what boost its hitting etc. A 10 psi over stock target will look a little suspicious. Routine servicing won't uncover it, but investigations into engine warranty work probably would.

[NVHoo]

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

Any tune is detectable if they look hard enough. The car logs what boost its hitting etc. A 10 psi over stock target will look a little suspicious. Routine servicing won't uncover it, but investigations into engine warranty work probably would.

Auto manufacturers have made great strides in being able to detect tunes that are present, and even tunes that were installed and removed. I know that Audi now requires the engine and/or tranny computer firmware to be verified in the event of a significant drive train warranty issue. In a recent case I saw on an Audi forum, the owner of a 2008 TT still under CPO warranty had installed a flash on his quattro tranny computer which caused a tranny failure shortly thereafter. The owner had the flash removed prior to taking it to the dealer but Audi checked his firmware, told him the flash install and uninstall dates, as well as the internal events that caused the failure, and told him he was out of luck on a $5K repair. The poster admitted in the forum that the dates they gave him were correct. His reason for posting was to alert others to the risk they were taking flashing their cars.

A good forensic software engineer can detect any modification to his software. My impression is that Audi began to get very serious about detecting tunes circa 2005 and installed features that detected firmware modifications in their new models around that time. I expect that all manufacturers have that ability now.

Bottom line, unless the tuner gives you a guarantee in writing that it is "undetectable" and guarantees to reimburse you for any repair denied due to a tune, I'd assume you are driving a vehicle that is no longer under warranty.

[2Banger]

Thanks for response guys. . .

[bryan_G01]

Quick answer is yes.

If your service manager is a cool guy, he will most likely overlook the mods and just get his job done.

If something goes wrong with your car, the first thing they will blame will be your mods. This may allow them to NOT cover any of the parts covered under a factory warranty because your mods destroyed them.

Its a very slippery slope. Mod at your own risk.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Very grey area

Maybe they can , maybe they cannot. I have never seen a proof where they caught a piggy after it was removed.

1 thing is for sure, your techs do not check for traces of a piggy and it has been suggested before that the techs might not have the access or tools to find a piggy only engineers.

Everything we read / see (including my post) is speculation. Fact is remove your tune before your dealership visit and you will be fine.

Note: Piggy work by tricking the system into thinking that it is running stock boost. So after it has been removed, if you do a boost scan it will show stock boost because thats what the ECU thinks it was running.
Of course some other parameters will change with the extra boost but they might not indicate with 100% certainty that there was a tune. It could be other things.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Very grey area

Maybe they can , maybe they cannot. I have never seen a proof where they caught a piggy after it was removed.

1 thing is for sure, your techs do not check for traces of a piggy and it has been suggested before that the techs might not have the access or tools to find a piggy only engineers.

Everything we read / see (including my post) is speculation. Fact is remove your tune before your dealership visit and you will be fine.

Note: Piggy work but tricking the system into thinking that it is running stock boost. So after it has been removed, if you do a boost scan it will show stock boost because thats what the ECU thinks it was running.
Of course some other parameters will change with the extra boost but they might not indicate with 100% certainty that there was a tune. It could be other things.

They 100% can, if it gets to the point of BMW corporate getting involved into the investigation. If the engine goes boom, and you had a tune, they will find it. If it is some minor issue here or there, they likely wont look hard enough.

Dealer typically wont be able to, but BMW themselves can.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

They 100% can, if it gets to the point of BMW corporate getting involved into the investigation. If the engine goes boom, and you had a tune, they will find it. If it is some minor issue here or there, they likely wont look hard enough.

Dealer typically wont be able to, but BMW themselves can.

There was a thread last week in the N55 section where this exact thing happened and the guy got his engine replaced under warranty.
Car was fully bolt on

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

There was a thread last week in the N55 section where this exact thing happened and the guy got his engine replaced under warranty.
Car was fully bolt on

He might have been lucky, but they BMW can detect it if they really look.

[2Banger]

See this is such a tricky subject. Do we not have any BMW Workers in this thread hahaha

[louielouie]

Originally Posted by 2Banger

See this is such a tricky subject. Do we not have any BMW Workers in this thread hahaha

Yep... this is sorta why I've been back and forth on the subject since I got mine 2 months ago. Would be so totally if I had to pay $$$ for potential repairs.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by louielouie

Yep... this is sorta why I've been back and forth on the subject since I got mine 2 months ago. Would be so totally if I had to pay $$$ for potential repairs.

Why are you worried since it is agreed upon that Once removed, you can have work done under warranty without a problem ?
Thousands do it

[louielouie]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Why are you worried since it is agreed upon that Once removed, you can have work done under warranty without a problem ?
Thousands do it

It seems as though people have reported that extra boost is detectable if BMW digs deep enough

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by louielouie

It seems as though people have reported that extra boost is detectable if BMW digs deep enough

for 99.99999999% as long as you remove the tune you are fine

the .0000001 chance that you have a defective engine and it breaks is the case we are discussing

Comparing the number of tuned cars under warranty vs the odds of something serious that breaks (couple reported over the 10 year span), i say there is nothing to worry about

[louielouie]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

for 99.99999999% as long as you remove the tune you are fine

the .0000001 chance that you have a defective engine and it breaks is the case we are discussing

Comparing the number of tuned cars under warranty vs the odds of something serious that breaks (couple reported over the 10 year span), i say there is nothing to worry about

It's like condom babies then.

They're out there and you really really don't want it to be you.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by louielouie

It's like condom babies then.

They're out there and you really really don't want it to be you.

but that doesnt stop you from using a condom does it?

[louielouie]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

but that doesnt stop you from using a condom does it?

Girlfriend is on birth control. I wish this piggyback issue was that simple.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by louielouie

Girlfriend is on birth control. I wish this piggyback issue was that simple.

LOL

[Pparana]

As an engineer I am a bit amazed that people feel the manufacture should cover the cost of repairs to something you modified out of the design permamiters. That's not even touching the ethical issues.

If you want to mod your car, than be prepared to pay for what is no longer under warranty. It may not be the modifications fault, however there is no way to tell, so the onus falls on the modifier.

Full disclosure, my car is fbo with meth injection.

As to the ops question, the data logs accessible from the dme with a piggyback are indeed easy to spot a tune was installed. Mostly by the large spikes in fueling and timing.

When you have a larger failure, (say an engine) the factory wants to get involved to figure out what happened mostly to prevent future issues. At a minimal it goes to a regional rep for approval.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Pparana

As an engineer I am a bit amazed that people feel the manufacture should cover the cost of repairs to something you modified out of the design permamiters. That's not even touching the ethical issues.

If you want to mod your car, than be prepared to pay for what is no longer under warranty. It may not be the modifications fault, however there is no way to tell, so the onus falls on the modifier.

Full disclosure, my car is fbo with meth injection.

I'm in engineer as well and totally understand your point but keep in mind that the repairs are not because of the modifications.

More often than not they are regular maintenance stuff or caused by defective parts.
I had to replace turbos on my car when it was fully stock .
If this happened while my car was tuned, techs would have probably blamed the tune when the problem was with bad turbos

If someone runs their car with maps too aggressive for their mods or with lower grade fuel, they should be responsible for the repairs

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I'm in engineer as well and totally understand your point but keep in mind that the repairs are not because of the modifications.

More often than not they are regular maintenance stuff or caused by defective parts.
I had to replace turbos on my car when it was fully stock .
If this happened while my car was tuned, techs would have probably blamed the tune when the problem was with bad turbos

If someone runs their car with maps too aggressive for their mods or with lower grade fuel, they should be responsible for the repairs

That is the cost of tuning the car, you loose the warranty, tune related or not. Pros and cons.

To me I went jb4, much cheaper than Dinan sans warranty, but the mild additional stress to the engine seems unlikely and has shown unlikely with the millions of miles driven on the tune to cause much if any wear.