[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by B58togo

Because overall, they generally haven't been. Have you not heard of all the N54 problems? The 7 Series with thousands of dollars in electrical problems that left people stranded on the side of the road? The spun crank hubs on the F80 M3/M4? E9x M3 rod bearing failures? Then there were the catastrophic N63 engine problems. And these are just problems from the last 12-13 years.

I could go on, but just because this platform has been well above average in reliability (aside from the N20 timing chain failures), doesn't mean BMW's are generally reliable as an entire brand.

Originally Posted by B58togo

Because overall, they generally haven't been. Have you not heard of all the N54 problems? The 7 Series with thousands of dollars in electrical problems that left people stranded on the side of the road? The spun crank hubs on the F80 M3/M4? E9x M3 rod bearing failures? Then there were the catastrophic N63 engine problems. And these are just problems from the last 12-13 years.

I could go on, but just because this platform has been well above average in reliability (aside from the N20 timing chain failures), doesn't mean BMW's are generally reliable as an entire brand.

This is true. 7 series are extremely unreliable to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs. Even the older V8s either having timing chain tensioner or valve guide issues which basically write off the car

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

This is true. 7 series are extremely unreliable to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs. Even the older V8s either having timing chain tensioner or valve guide issues which basically write off the car

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The above report is not the IQS. It’s the VDS after three years in service. I don't know of any study of 20+ years in service. Great story, though!

First three years, all cars are reliable. And if they are not, not big fuss, they are in warranty. All my Bimmers got lots of recalls during warranty and never count these ones, regardless I should.
Now, your graphic obviously shows other brands above BMW and confirms that is not better than GOOD. However, for me JD Power equal ZERO. Make a long follow up and reach all customers and then call it a good source.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Tracus

First three years, all cars are reliable. And if they are not, not big fuss, they are in warranty. All my Bimmers got lots of recalls during warranty and never count these ones, regardless I should.
Now, your graphic obviously shows other brands above BMW and confirms that is not better than GOOD. However, for me JD Power equal ZERO. Make a long follow up and reach all customers and then call it a good source.

I don’t even know where to start with this level of logic. I give up. The data speaks for itself. Good luck with your cars.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Notwithstanding the personal anecdotes... .

Anecdotes? Really?
I was under the impression that you are a serious individual. This comment however, let me with a sour taste...

Here are some "anecdotes":

https://www.classlawgroup.com/bmw-e46/

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...w-jersey.shtml

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...rranty-claims/

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...urning-defect/

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...-lawsuit.shtml

https://www.classaction.org/news/bmw...ss-action-says

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by 10"

Well the F series and newer non-M BMWs drive more like Hondas rather than BMWs of old; so it makes sense their reliability is on par with their driving experience.

So true.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I don’t even know where to start with this level of logic. I give up. The data speaks for itself. Good luck with your cars.

It is very logic.

First, vehicles are new; very little things happen in the first 2-3 years. (yet BMW replaced entire engines on the first 2019 M5's)

Second, many in this period are lease, hence, mileage restricted,

Third, Reliable or not, in warranty people will not suffer, so they don't really care or record these facts; except some inconvenience for renting or driving a courtesy vehicle, there are no out of pocket expenses.

I also onw/owned luxury and ultra luxury vehicles, yet never got a form from JD Power to say my story...

I see that you drive a 2015 N20. What is the mileage on it?

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Busby

Hey Tracus,
Which model BMW did you have all the trouble with?

HERE IS MY STORY.

As stated before, all my cars are ultra maintained. And by this I am literally saying that the cars are religiously maintained, engine, outside or inside. I am OCD about my cars and never borrow or let someone driving them except family or the single tech that takes care of each.

All pictures are taken in 2018 and 2019 when the vehicle was 7 years old and 80,000 km on board.
You can read the whole story in here:

https://e84.xbimmers.com/forums/show....php?t=1595396

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I don’t even know where to start with this level of logic. I give up. The data speaks for itself. Good luck with your cars.

There you go man. Consider that I make you a favor. If not, come back when your own N20 is dead. Maybe that will make you understand few things...

https://bmwtuning.co/bmw-n20-common-problems/

http://www.rightfootdown.com/automot...nents-n26-too/

https://bmwtechnician.com/2016/08/07...g-chain-issue/

[Rocky58]

The plural of anecdote does not equal data. Nowadays all cars are way more reliable than they were even ten years ago. These types of comparisons are all apples and oranges. Cost, performance, how you drive it, how you maintain it, what your risk tolerance is, how much money you have to blow. I had a wonderful Saturday, driving my really fast, eye-catching convertible, with the wind blowing through what’s left of my hair😂

[F85MTuNED]

Originally Posted by MassNerd

And BMW as a brand finished 8th overall.

So makes you wonder where BMW gets the reputation that it's cars aren't reliable. Is it the expense of the repairs that eventually happen? Or is it BMWs are problem free while under warranty, but fall apart by 100K miles (This study follows 3 year old cars)?

In my experience those bad ratings come from guys that purchase shit cars either hit or flood damage... the dashboards are lit up like Christmas trees with no type of warranty or no how on how to deal with the cars.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Rocky58

The plural of anecdote does not equal data. Nowadays all cars are way more reliable than they were even ten years ago. These types of comparisons are all apples and oranges. Cost, performance, how you drive it, how you maintain it, what your risk tolerance is, how much money you have to blow. I had a wonderful Saturday, driving my really fast, eye-catching convertible, with the wind blowing through what’s left of my hair��

What are you really trying to say?

Cost has nothing to do with reliability. Cheap or expensive, a vehicle can be reliable. See Toyota/Lexus.

Performance? Performance is based on manufacturers decision to force or not an engine to its limits. Any manufacturer has the ability to decide based on engineering and technical data where to cap an engine performance to make sure is reliable.
Or you are trying to say that more performance equals -towards- more non reliable?

How you drive it? Regardless how you drive it, you will never drive it more than was intended too. See above note. People drive it normally, and majority never push the engine to what maximum speed that the vehicle is capable of. Yes, some other driving habits may be bad if the driver is bad, taking potholes and destroying elements of the chassis for example, but that is very unlikely, rare, and does not make the list of unreliability. Engine and transmission are the main complaints. And regardless how you drive it, today many transimssions are automatic so the car decides the shifting. Again not relevant.

How you maintain it? Sure, I agree with this. Yet majority of people that are driving a luxury vehicle, know the costs involved and also care about these vehicles. As mentioned before, they do go to the dealership when need it and that should be enough since that is what the manufacturer suggest it needs to be done and nothing more. Others are really keen about vehicles (see my case), and yet, the car was not a reliable one.

What you risk tolerance is. This is a funny one. I kind of agree. Exactly as I mentioned to BMW Canada: BMW should disclose that their vehicles wont last over 80,000km mark and that their risk tolerance is high. Maybe not a bad ideea. At least we know that BMW has an expiration date.

How much money you have to blow. Yeah, related with the one above I guess. A sad one too. When you buy a luxury vehicle you expect a certain level of quality and the peace in mind that your financial efforts will bring a product that will serve its purpose trouble free for a certain number of years (at least).
Not the case in here.

Bottom line, not one of your points is viable, except maintenance which is not the case of any “anecdotes” in here.
If you want, Ican take the time and offer you over 20 anecdotes that are right here on this forum with extremely troubling problems with cars that belong to very careful and responsible owners and fans. This way You also have the opportunity to contact and chat with these owners and get your answers.

I am a fan too, but I will not be a subjective one, nor use the omission style to justify my lack of objectivity.

Notes like, they buying them used, or with problems or bla bla bla, are just pathetic fanboy excuses for facts that are not in consensus with your beliefs. That does not make them correct.
All this data exist and all these complaints exist, and the overwhelming majority of people that had problems are normal users like you and me. Also, the lawsuits have some conditions to be met, like maintenance that needs to be proved in court; all accepted cases that summarize a lawsuit are there because they are legit.
We might not like it, but that is the reality.

[Hap]

So is my first BMW going to be reliable or not ?
Hap

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Hap

So is my first BMW going to be reliable or not ?
Hap

Hap,
There is no bright line when crossed puts a car into "reliable" versus "unreliable" categories. These are relative terms, and the JDPower information above provides the latest information, not from forum hounds, but from a large, robust, representative sample of U.S. buyers for how three year old cars are performing in the last 12 months. As you can see, some brands do quite well, less than one issue per vehicle over the year, while others do quite worse, despite being new. Also, not all problems are of the same magnitude.

This data gives you the best and most recent information on likelihood across the brand. Within the brand, different platforms/models also vary. The 2 Series has been among the better models for BMW. But, the predictive value must allow for outliers in both directions. Good luck!

[Hap]

I value your inputs sportstick

[Teutonic]

There are two key measures J.D. Power uses to judge quality and, hence, the award winners: the Vehicle Dependability Study, and the Initial Quality Study.
- VDS asks car owners about problems in the first three years of ownership,
- IQS asks owners about problems in the first 90 days of ownership.
Of the two, IQS is far and away most prominent.

In other words, all the “robust” data tells you that the first three years BMW’s are fine. That is amazing!
But, as the guy said, this is a relative term. Sic!

This solid data is coming from a company that charge automakers to use their name as an endorsement.

BTW, I have robust information that Santa is real. Seriously. You can write him anytime. His postal code is H0H0H0.
And is as serious and real as any JDPower survey: You can write him a letter and he will tell you where you are in the human quality index.

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/send-a-l...late-1.4724787

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Hap

So is my first BMW going to be reliable or not ?
Hap

Since the same engine it is used on multiple platforms and models, it is not about your “2 Series” as some tell you based on their JD Power fairytales.
It is about your mechanical components, hence your engine and transmission.

You have the N55B30 engine.
As in many cases, it depends when your vehicle was produced, or where your engine stands from timing point of view.
At the begining, usually, but not a rule, many vehicles have “bugs” or things that are addressed later when they prove to become common. Later in time, all major issues are fixed, however, while quality can be addressed, the design flaws can not be really properly improved.

The most common N55 issues are:
- Valve Cover Oil Leak
- Water Pump Failure
- Leaking Oil Filter Housing Gasket
- chargepipe
- VANOS Solenoid Failure
- High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure (HPFP) – Mostly older models
- Road bearings have been a timing bomb for some but not a rule

You may have a problem, or you may have none.
This forum has plenty of data in regards with the N55.

[SVTruong]

The new stuff should be good, but time will tell. I've had 3 F platform BMWs and they've been pretty solid... engine is solid but things like thrust bushings shot at 48k is kind of concerning. I agree with the lower number models being solid with reliability issues plaguing higher end models.

The x7 m50i was scary thinking about everything that could go wrong on it. The V8s terrify me even though they sound and feel so good. After parking those cars after an aggressive drive, it's scary just feeling the heat and hearing the howl of all the fans. The upkeep and knowing there's double of everything that can fail melts my brain.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Since the same engine it is used on multiple platforms and models, it is not about your “2 Series” as some tell you based on their JD Power fairytales.
It is about your mechanical components, hence your engine and transmission.

You have the N55B30 engine.
As in many cases, it depends when your vehicle was produced, or where your engine stands from timing point of view.
At the begining, usually, but not a rule, many vehicles have “bugs” or things that are addressed later when they prove to become common. Later in time, all major issues are fixed, however, while quality can be addressed, the design flaws can not be really properly improved.

The most common N55 issues are:
- Valve Cover Oil Leak
- Water Pump Failure
- Leaking Oil Filter Housing Gasket
- chargepipe
- VANOS Solenoid Failure
- High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure (HPFP) – Mostly older models
- Road bearings have been a timing bomb for some but not a rule

You may have a problem, or you may have none.
This forum has plenty of data in regards with the N55.

Pretty much this ^

I will add that that the newer 2014+ N55s are more reliable than the first gen ones. The 2014+ N55s all have the rods and rod bearings from the S55. The crank in the M235/M2 is forged. All other N55s have cast cranks. The N55 in the M235 has more external oil cooling capacity which should help with more longevity, but more external systems means more systems that can leak. The High Pressure Fuel Pump is pretty much a non-issue in the 2014+ N55s as well.

With all that said, you should expect/plan for a $1,000+ in repairs/maintenance every year with a 4+ y/o M235. Some years could be better and some could be far worse. I'd definitely have a $5K rainy day fund available for more significant repairs.

You should expect a broken radiator to coolant expansion tank overflow line within 5 to 7 years, a leaking valve cover gasket and oil filter housing gasket within 6 to 7 years, and a failed water pump within 5 to 8 years. Other items that might let go are a coil pack or two, maybe a fuel injector, VANOS solenoid, and possibly an expensive VANOS eccentric shaft failure (seems to be more an older N55 issue).

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by Tracus

HERE IS MY STORY.

As stated before, all my cars are ultra maintained. And by this I am literally saying that the cars are religiously maintained, engine, outside or inside. I am OCD about my cars and never borrow or let someone driving them except family or the single tech that takes care of each.

All pictures are taken in 2018 and 2019 when the vehicle was 7 years old and 80,000 km on board.
You can read the whole story in here:

https://e84.xbimmers.com/forums/show....php?t=1595396

I think the above says more about how BMW can treat their customers -and in your case, that was pretty chitty.

I'm reminded of my wife's Celica from way back when - air conditioner went out at 110,000 Miles. Entire unit needed to be replaced. Toyota covered it. Reason being "well, we had a service campaign on them to add some lubricant cause they were not lasting as long as we wanted, obviously it did not work as well as we hoped, so we are paying for your new air conditioner - even though the car is 6 years old and way way out of warranty."

I'm not sure if Toyota still does this kind of thing - but man, it made a lasting impression on me.

PS - if the issue with the N20 is as prevalent as you say, I would not be surprised if BMW eventually comes back and covers the cost of past repairs. I've seen them do this numerous times with the N63 engine and my wife's old Mini. Fingers crossed for you.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I think the above says more about how BMW can treat their customers -and in your case, that was pretty chitty.

I'm reminded of my wife's Celica from way back when - air conditioner went out at 110,000 Miles. Entire unit needed to be replaced. Toyota covered it. Reason being "well, we had a service campaign on them to add some lubricant cause they were not lasting as long as we wanted, obviously it did not work as well as we hoped, so we are paying for your new air conditioner - even though the car is 6 years old and way way out of warranty."

I'm not sure if Toyota still does this kind of thing - but man, it made a lasting impression on me.

PS - if the issue with the N20 is as prevalent as you say, I would not be surprised if BMW eventually comes back and covers the cost of past repairs. I've seen them do this numerous times with the N63 engine and my wife's old Mini. Fingers crossed for you.

Thank you kindly for your thoughts.

I must say that my experience with Toyota was also top notch. Did not have any big problems ever, and despite that they always step up their game and offered me very third visit in the shop something, like no charge service or free wheel swap, etc.
BMW never offered me anything for free or as a gesture of good will.
I even asked for a substantial but fair price reduction if I buy a new car so we can settle the case and they said no.

We will see what BMW will do, but as a life fan, I am truly disappointed by their approach. There are people that have no respect for the vehicle, but you also have owners that are truly responsible, and cases where the mileage, maintenance and history of the owner with the brand can be taken in consideration. Regardless, they should have issued a recall for this or just step up when the case and do it quietly.
Now they are facing a big lawsuit which just started the process. Time will tell.

[morphomeman]

This whole discussion is amusing. Large numbers don't lie. The 2-series is very reliable. But these large numbers tell us nothing about individual data points. Canada is ten times safer than the United States: you are ten times more likely to be killed with a gun in the US than in Canada. But individuals in Canada still get killed with guns and those individuals are no better off because of the lower statistics.
At any given moment, one of us may get stranded at the side of the road at 3 AM on a cold rainy night. I am less likely to get stranded than the driver of a Land Rover, but that will not be much of a source of comfort if it does happen to me.
And yes, I have always lusted after a Jaguar, but no, I will never buy one, for statistical reasons.