[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Caterhams eat those powerful but lardy Miata's for lunch, breakfast and dinner, every day! Otherwise they are great.

I'll tell you which one I would rather drive to and from the track, especially on a rainy day.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

I'll tell you which one I would rather drive to and from the track, especially on a rainy day.

It's surprising how little water comes into the Caterham without the windshield fitted when the speed is above 80km, but half roof, doors and windshield can be fitted or removed in 5 minutes. I've driven my Caterham 300km in the rain to the track, noise is more of a hassle than rain, but I just have a motorcycle noise cancelling bluetooth system to alleviate noise and play my tunes!

Once at the track it is no contest, especially with a set of slicks:

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Caterhams eat those powerful but lardy Miata's for lunch, breakfast and dinner, every day! Otherwise they are great.

Dude caterhams are the purest! That's not even a fair fight at that point. The 620 is a purist's dream come true!

I am curious, which one do you own? Your avatar shows one but I can't tell.

[cristo]

Click on the avatar and you’ll see
a nice pic to the upper right.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Caterhams eat those powerful but lardy Miata's for lunch, breakfast and dinner, every day! Otherwise they are great.

My friend is an Elise owner and i always remember him telling me "The funniest thing about the car is when you pull up next to a Miata at a stop light. The driver will always look over and then get this kind of sad expression on their face."

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Dude caterhams are the purest! That's not even a fair fight at that point. The 620 is a purist's dream come true!

I am curious, which one do you own? Your avatar shows one but I can't tell.

2012 R400 Superlight R, 210bhp, 525kg. I thought about doing the supercharger upgrade to make it equivalent to the 620R (has all the equivalent suspension, brakes and carbon fibre bits), but there is something about keeping it naturally aspirated and the way the engine revs that is hard to leave behind.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

2012 R400 Superlight R, 210bhp, 525kg. I thought about doing the supercharger upgrade to make it equivalent to the 620R (has all the equivalent suspension, brakes and carbon fibre bits), but there is something about keeping it naturally aspirated and the way the engine revs that is hard to leave behind.

Somewhere in this thread I mentioned that I am looking for a purist track toy. Sometimes it takes a tiny bit of inspiration to look in the right direction I have been looking at the Elise/Evoras, and... on paper a Caterham just seems so damn perfect. I actually never gave it a serious thought.

I should start shadowing some caterham forums.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

In fact not to stir the pot here but who would EVER buy a 4-banger 50k Bimmer over a Miata?... Whenever I see someone driving around a 228/230 I can't help but wonder... what happened?

Umm, the 230 has 4 seats; the MX-5 only has 2.

With two kids, I needed a functional rear seat. I ruled out a lot of nice cars simply because they either didn't have rear seats or they were too small even for kids. When my wife was looking for a convertible, she too had to rule out any 2-seat models. And she loves her 230 convertible; as does one of my daughters. (The other likes it as long as the top is up; top down is a different story with her. She prefers my car.)

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Respectfully, I would challenge your premise. All that sells is not necessarily of value or satisfies the supposed reason for its existence. Your premise does not seem to allow for the human fraility of being susceptible to "conventional wisdom"/"common knowledge". For a more extreme example than we are discussing here, watch how and what people buy in so-called "health stores" with unregulated, unsubstantiated supplements based on no clinical trials or other data. They just "know" that, for example, vitamin C will prevent whatever...and not just waste money while producing expensive urine. The less the actual technical data one has, the more, it seems, people are willing to accept what they believe most people know, and buy in to the story.

In this case, the reason AWD sells (in addition to the valid point made about dealer inventory) runs parallel to why SUVs are dominating the market.

Im familiar with what you're talking about with health stores and supplements, and being in the field myself, I love a good marketing discussion.

The difference between the two is that health stores rely on the placebo effect, which is well known publicly.

AWD vs. RWD can be tested in many specific use cases, scientifically to rule out any placebo effects, or the influence of the halo effect.

Do people get overconfident due to the feature? Absolutely. Does it discount the feature? Absolutely not.

People HATE wearing seatbelts and helmets, that doesnt rule out that its been scientifically proven to increase your odds of surviving a collision, exponentially.

As far as the trend towards SUVs, thats another one thats been well known in the industry for years. It came about when minivans struggled in sales.

It was proven that women as a demographic felt "safer" in SUVs, regardless of the fact that roll-overs were an issue that was prevalent as a risk ONLY in this vehicle class.

conventional wisdom/common knowledge is a little different from driver's overconfidence in their vehicle due to safety features..which is why you see memes passed around that say "your car is all wheel drive/4 wheel drive, not all wheel braking" since so many of our vehicles exist with brakes on only one axle

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

Do people get overconfident due to the feature? Absolutely. Does it discount the feature? Absolutely not.

I never intended to discount the feature, just assess it realistically. I was attempting to answer the question as to "why it sells" generally, not whether it has value of not. Certainly, it has value in specific situations. Just as certainly, it sells to folks who have little to no understanding of its actual pros and cons and are swept up in the "conventional widsom" that it is just a "good thing" to keep them safe. That was the discussion I was attempting.

From the memory files. I recall back a few decades doing a focus group and testing copy that referenced "McPherson struts". Back then, this design feature was touted a lot in marketing. I recall, almost exclusively men, hearing some respondents brag that their car had "McPherson struts". When challenged to explain what that meant and what it did for them, much backpeddling or silence usually followed. This human behavior has not disappeared...it just moves on to new topics over time. As of today, some health department was reporting that they already had 100+ calls asking whether drinking Clorox would really prevent COVID-19. Humans are highly suggestible and gullible, given the right stimulus.

Challenging winters? More torque than 2 tires can put down? Circumstances like that certainly advocate for an AWD system of some sort. For others, the value is far more questionable versus the negatives. The bigger problem may be those who purchase with low information and then think they have an all-situation panacea on the road...and then skip winter tires, for example.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

From the memory files. I recall back a few decades doing a focus group and testing copy that referenced "McPherson struts". Back then, this design feature was touted a lot in marketing. I recall, almost exclusively men, hearing some respondents brag that their car had "McPherson struts". When challenged to explain what that meant and what it did for them, much backpeddling or silence usually followed.

Awesome. I'm gonna start touting that my car has McPherson struts. When anyone asks me about how that's a good thing, i'll immediately start explaining to them how my car's front suspension setup is far superior to the solid axle front end setups people were using in cars 100 or so years ago.

[Throttlesteer14]

now if only you had a double wishbone suspension

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Challenging winters?

Here, not so much. Our local dealers stock 107 AWD and 4 RWD. The four RWD are RWD-only; otherwise, I imagine they'd be AWD, too.

Louisville is pretty much the same at 106 AWD and 4 RWD. They get around the same 12-inch winters we get, so that makes sense.

Now Nashville, that's a completely different story. With only 4 inches on average, they split 167 AWD / 116 RWD.

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I never intended to discount the feature, just assess it realistically. I was attempting to answer the question as to "why it sells" generally, not whether it has value of not. Certainly, it has value in specific situations. Just as certainly, it sells to folks who have little to no understanding of its actual pros and cons and are swept up in the "conventional widsom" that it is just a "good thing" to keep them safe. That was the discussion I was attempting.

From the memory files. I recall back a few decades doing a focus group and testing copy that referenced "McPherson struts". Back then, this design feature was touted a lot in marketing. I recall, almost exclusively men, hearing some respondents brag that their car had "McPherson struts". When challenged to explain what that meant and what it did for them, much backpeddling or silence usually followed. This human behavior has not disappeared...it just moves on to new topics over time. As of today, some health department was reporting that they already had 100+ calls asking whether drinking Clorox would really prevent COVID-19. Humans are highly suggestible and gullible, given the right stimulus.

Challenging winters? More torque than 2 tires can put down? Circumstances like that certainly advocate for an AWD system of some sort. For others, the value is far more questionable versus the negatives. The bigger problem may be those who purchase with low information and then think they have an all-situation panacea on the road...and then skip winter tires, for example.

I dont disagree with your example, just the relevance in the overall buying decision.

Brembo brakes can be used similarly as the struts. You can get buick regals with brembo brakes on them now. They are a selling point, but not the overall deciding factor.

I dont believe that people were making purchase decisions based solely on brembo brakes, or macpherson struts.

the "why it sells" would come and go at this point, if it was indeed irrelevant, in the same way that you dont hear much about macpherson struts anymore.

I think we're ultimately saying the same thing.

Did awd vehicle sales get boosted by the halo effect, and overconfidence inspired by the premise of safety? Very much so.

Is AWD marketing hype? at this point, I dont believe so..and the proof exists to back it. Safety AND performance both stand to benefit. The m5 with xdrive speaks for itself.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

I dont disagree with your example, just the relevance in the overall buying decision.

Brembo brakes can be used similarly as the struts. You can get buick regals with brembo brakes on them now. They are a selling point, but not the overall deciding factor.

I dont believe that people were making purchase decisions based solely on brembo brakes, or macpherson struts.

the "why it sells" would come and go at this point, if it was indeed irrelevant, in the same way that you dont hear much about macpherson struts anymore.

I think we're ultimately saying the same thing.

Did awd vehicle sales get boosted by the halo effect, and overconfidence inspired by the premise of safety? Very much so.

Is AWD marketing hype? at this point, I dont believe so..and the proof exists to back it. Safety AND performance both stand to benefit. The m5 with xdrive speaks for itself.

It is not fun if it isn't a marketing conspiracy. Come on, stop making sense.

I personally think the popularity of the internal combustion engine was a marketing conspiracy. Horse drawn carriages were just fine! On snow, on ice, on grass... yup, will do the trick!

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

It is not fun if it isn't a marketing conspiracy. Come on, stop making sense.

I personally think the popularity of the internal combustion engine was a marketing conspiracy. Horse drawn carriages were just fine! On snow, on ice, on grass... yup, will do the trick!

I heard the maintenance on horses is even more expensive than our cars

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

...
I think we're ultimately saying the same thing.

...Safety AND performance both stand to benefit. The m5 with xdrive speaks for itself.

I think we do agree and yes, the M5 does indeed. As we also agreed, 1) challenging low traction environments (safety) or 2) powertrains delivering more than tires can effectively put down (performance) both benefit. If outside these conditions, the majority of retail sales have a different cost/benefit situation. But, that is only the technical reality. I think our conversation evolved to talk about most non-enthusiast, mass-market buyers making decisions in the absence of understanding the actualities and relying on "what they've heard". That is likely harmless (other than financially) until they then also believe that AWD is a panacea and substitutes for proper tires for condition #1. Then, the final domino in the series that marketing initiated can result in real harm.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I think we do agree and yes, the M5 does indeed. As we also agreed, 1) challenging low traction environments (safety) or 2) powertrains delivering more than tires can effectively put down (performance) both benefit. If outside these conditions, the majority of retail sales have a different cost/benefit situation. But, that is only the technical reality. I think our conversation evolved to talk about most non-enthusiast, mass-market buyers making decisions in the absence of understanding the actualities and relying on "what they've heard". That is likely harmless (other than financially) until they then also believe that AWD is a panacea and substitutes for proper tires for condition #1. Then, the final domino in the series that marketing initiated can result in real harm.

The Infiniti ATESSA (sp?) system is a rude awakening for those who buy AWD as a panacea for "all bad weather" without understanding the specifics of ATESSA's AWD protocol which makes it so unique. In the G35/G37 sedans, in the event of a slip, there is a bit of a delay before the front wheels start putting down torque (the car is usually 80R/20F). This is even more pronounced in the G37xS coupe/convertible for some reason.

Anyway, come snowy icy days, the Infiniti forums get littered with posts to the tune of "Guyz, I am coming from a Subaru/Audi and my Infiniti scared me today!!! It was like a tankslapper!!! I thought I was going to be in the ditch!!! Is this AWD??? Does AWD work in this car??? "

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

The Infiniti ATESSA (sp?) system is a rude awakening for those who buy AWD as a panacea for "all bad weather" without understanding the specifics of ATESSA's AWD protocol which makes it so unique. In the G35/G37 sedans, in the event of a slip, there is a bit of a delay before the front wheels start putting down torque (the car is usually 80R/20F). This is even more pronounced in the G37xS coupe/convertible for some reason.

Anyway, come snowy icy days, the Infiniti forums get littered with posts to the tune of "Guyz, I am coming from a Subaru/Audi and my Infiniti scared me today!!! It was like a tankslapper!!! I thought I was going to be in the ditch!!! Is this AWD??? Does AWD work in this car??? "

...wow....didn't know that....and how many of them do you suppose are still on all season tires as well?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

I heard the maintenance on horses is even more expensive than our cars

Back in the 90s, I had a colleague who had a $20K/year horse jones; so yeah, they'll take all you want to give them - sort of like boats.

And if you keep them on your own property, someone is going to be out there at 5 AM feeding and watering them. No thanks.

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Back in the 90s, I had a colleague who had a $20K/year horse jones; so yeah, they'll take all you want to give them - sort of like boats.

And if you keep them on your own property, someone is going to be out there at 5 AM feeding and watering them. No thanks.

agreed, the neighbor at my old house had two horses. One of the two died while I lived there. The city was very strict about the process after.

No chainsawing it up like on a farm to send to the glue factory. A tow truck had to be driven in to tow the thing away on a flatbed.

[jgalaxy]

Originally Posted by albertw

A few people have posted that oversteer is possible with AWD, but you are the first I remember to state explicitly that it can be done while accelerating out of a corner. In contrast, many others have raved about how planted the AWD feels while accelerating hard out of corners.

Having a car feel really well planted while accelerating out of a corner is exactly what I do not want in a fun car for the street. That's the main reason I stuck with RWD, but I am curious about whether I made a mistake, as AWD would be useful to me a few times a year.

I had assumed that oversteer with AWD involved brake and steering inputs while entering a corner, which doesn't interest me for the reasons given by Moflow. Perhaps you could describe in more detail what you do to induce oversteer while accelerating out of a corner.

Now that winter is officially gone from my neck of the woods, I have had a chance to flog the car with the summers on - I can attest that from mid corner to corner exit that you can provoke the rear end to step out. I was even a little surprised that I was easily able to do that with my staggered setup. Lets see how things go as the asphalt warms up a bit more.