[perryair]

every so often i daydream about what the next ride will be, though i do love my m240i. recently, i've had my interest piqued by the mustang shelby 350 and so i've been thinking a bit about them 'stangs. well, because of my job, i rent cars often. i purposefully spent about a weeks worth of 'butt time' split between a mustang ecoboost premium coupe and a 'vert recently and while i know that those cars in that trim aren't supposed to be exactly equivalent to my car or a shelby, a few hot takes popped up in my mind.

1: even getting credit for being rental cars, at no more than 10k miles both stangs had numerous rattles around the interior. the gulf in interior quality is real. in the coupe, the rearview mirror couldn't handle any bass from the radio or else it would rattle so much you couldn't see anything out of it. small things, granted but i can't imagine that the same factory putting together the higher end model would make much of a difference in that.

2: the back seat in the m240, while not something i'd love to spend time in, is something that a human being could actually use. the back seat in a mustang is basically a shelf to hold your bags. that fact combined with the fact that a mustang is more than a foot longer than an m240i is puzzling to say the least.

3: visibility out of a mustang is crap. the vert is blind between the b pillar and the rear window when the top is up, but the coupe wasn't much better - the seatbelt catch blocks the one small slice of quarter panel window.

4: perhaps not a fair comparison but - the guy i bought my m240 from coded out the piped in exhaust and installed a catback which sounds great. the mustang piped in exhaust (especially in sport +) was REALLY SUPER DRONEY ANNOYING.

5: also perhaps not fair but - my m240 has a stick, which i like a lot and i haven't driven an auto version so i can't exactly compare but the mustang's 10 speed auto had rough shifts, wouldn't hold onto lower gears as long as you'd want even in sport plus and generally felt unrefined.

last: there's a highway off ramp that i take that is a 270 degree turn that the bmw can take 'spiritedly' at 47/48 mph. i wasnt sure if the mustang could hang but i tried anyways and lo and behold it did. but even though it could technically do the same thing, it felt like wrestling a dogsled around the corner whereas the bmw is much more communicative about where/what the limit is and what's going on.

summary: it feels like bmw designs their car series so that the premium high end version is dialed in, and then decontented to get to your lower models whereas the ford felt like it was designed for the base model, and then they find the way to cram in the features for the higher end trims. in that way, an m230 'feels' almost as premium as a m240 which likely feels pretty similar to an m2 but an ecoboost premium feels like a base model that has leather and a fancier infotainment unit thrown in it.

and as good as that shelby voodoo engine sounds, ill prob just daydream about an m2, or a cayman, or something like that for the future.

[overcoil]

I to constantly think about switching out to something new, but then I drive my 235 and it's so good.

[Rayscott]

And, there are far more Mustangs on the road than 2 series.

[GoldfishRT]

The Mustang at the high end, like many of its American stable-mates, is built around price-to-performance. Not for everybody, I've always had a soft spot for them but I wasn't about to eat the insurance or used price of a Mustang GT. The one thing I'll disagree with, I think the Mustang was designed around the GT and they begrudgingly build the softer economy models to sell to rental fleets and my step-mom. They're significantly softer and less sporty than the GT models and I highly recommend you try one before you completely write off the lineup as junk. The performance pack Mustangs are extremely sharp and capable. I will agree the Ecoboost definitely gives a 228 a run for its money in just sounding like ass.

One car I desperately want to get a go in is the Camaro SS 1LE. Seems like an absolute riot, even if you can't see out of it. I think my next car might see some track time if it's equipped for it and that would be on my short list to check out. As much as I love my BMW, the only German car I could see myself upgrading to is an M2. That said, far too soon to really consider replacing my 228. Especially since I do love it so much.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by Rayscott

And, there are far more Mustangs on the road than 2 series.

truth. there certainly is no substitute for sales volume. though im very glad that bmw doesnt need to be a sales volume leader to offer the 2 series.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by GoldfishRT

The Mustang at the high end, like many of its American stable-mates, is built around price-to-performance. Not for everybody, I've always had a soft spot for them but I wasn't about to eat the insurance or used price of a Mustang GT. The one thing I'll disagree with, I think the Mustang was designed around the GT and they begrudgingly build the softer economy models to sell to rental fleets and my step-mom. They're significantly softer and less sporty than the GT models and I highly recommend you try one before you completely write off the lineup as junk. The performance pack Mustangs are extremely sharp and capable. I will agree the Ecoboost definitely gives a 228 a run for its money in just sounding like ass.

One car I desperately want to get a go in is the Camaro SS 1LE. Seems like an absolute riot, even if you can't see out of it. I think my next car might see some track time if it's equipped for it and that would be on my short list to check out. As much as I love my BMW, the only German car I could see myself upgrading to is an M2. That said, far too soon to really consider replacing my 228. Especially since I do love it so much.

yeah those high end camaros get a lot of love from the respected car journo’s - the randy pobsts of the world. def looks like a ton of fun, but even from the configurator you can tell that the cockpit looks/feels more like a 2007 focus/cruze/corolla type than any kind of aspirational car.

[shovell242]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking the forum, or maybe just informing some shower thoughts. I own a Shelby GT350R and a stage 2 M240i.

The cars perfectly complement one another given their experiences behind the wheel. The Shelby is a hyperactive, tingle all your sensations car, on par with a Ferrari 458/GT3 kind of feeling. One of the best sports cars ever built, and outside of the GT3, one of the last NA 500hp+ 6 speed cars that will ever be produced.

The M240i shines in an unbelievable DD, torque for days, short gearing, fun, fly under the radar. I would be kidding if it said I felt special, or I didn't want more from the steering feel.

If I had to get only one car that optimized both experiences, I'd probably go with Alfa Romeo Giulia QF.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by shovell242

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking the forum, or maybe just informing some shower thoughts. I own a Shelby GT350R and a stage 2 M240i.

The cars perfectly complement one another given their experiences behind the wheel. The Shelby is a hyperactive, tingle all your sensations car, on par with a Ferrari 458/GT3 kind of feeling. One of the best sports cars ever built, and outside of the GT3, one of the last NA 500hp+ 6 speed cars that will ever be produced.

The M240i shines in an unbelievable DD, torque for days, short gearing, fun, fly under the radar. I would be kidding if it said I felt special, or I didn't want more from the steering feel.

If I had to get only one car that optimized both experiences, I'd probably go with Alfa Romeo Giulia QF.

just bored and postin, my man.

but as an owner of both maybe you can shine some light, do they actually pay attention to the build quality in the 350 and my experience was just that they dont care if the volume models are shitty? thats certainly what i’d hope. but based on how subpar those low-mileaged ones already felt on the interior it certainly didnt give me good vibes that you wouldnt spend 65 large on a 350 then bring it home with a cockpit full of rattle.

[shovell242]

Originally Posted by perryair

just bored and postin, my man.

but as an owner of both maybe you can shine some light, do they actually pay attention to the build quality in the 350 and my experience was just that they dont care if the volume models are shitty? thats certainly what i’d hope. but based on how subpar those low-mileaged ones already felt on the interior it certainly didnt give me good vibes that you wouldnt spend 65 large on a 350 then bring it home with a cockpit full of rattle.

Fit and finish is definitely an issue but can be easily overlooked after driving one. Panel gaps, lower-tier paint, shitty plastic in the interior.

If you're a stickler for these kinds of things, then yes, the car has drawbacks. I haven't experienced any cockpit rattle, although the later models seem to have worked out a lot of the kinks in earlier years.

But every driving input from the Tremec 6-speed, flat-plane V8 revving to 8250rpm, the SOUND, makes you forgot all of that. Remember, a GT350R is running similar lap times at Laguna Seca with a Ferrari 458, 991.1 GT3, and faster than an M4 GTS.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by perryair

2: the back seat in the m240, while not something i'd love to spend time in, is something that a human being could actually use. the back seat in a mustang is basically a shelf to hold your bags. that fact combined with the fact that a mustang is more than a foot longer than an m240i is puzzling to say the least.

3: visibility out of a mustang is crap. the vert is blind between the b pillar and the rear window when the top is up, but the coupe wasn't much better - the seatbelt catch blocks the one small slice of quarter panel window.

Lol. Those. Especially as someone who lives in the city.

I sort of toyed with the idea of just buying a Mustang instead of the M2. I could've either saved a boatload of money by getting a Mustang GT or spent similar money on a GT350 to end up with a much more 'special' car.

But really the M2 just feels like so much more of a well thought out vehicle. I think about stuff like the relative backseat size when compared to vehicle length and I wonder "What else is Ford doing...stupidly?"

At the end of the day, I don't want to talk too much shit about the Mustang, because it's price to speed ratio is fucking amazing at pretty much any price point between $25K and $60K. But man. There's a lot there that would bother the hell out of me. And while literally every single one of my complaints falls into the "but I could live with it" category, I just decided at the end of the day i'd rather give up a little bit of speed/spend a bit more money for a car that feels a bit nicer and is better thought out.

No judgement on Mustang owners though. Fantastic car for the money.

[XutvJet]

I'd be quite interested in the Mustang if they'd make the damn thing 2 series size and more like the Fox body size. The current gen Mustang is full of wasted space and is excessively large. There's no reason why that car is so much larger than a 2 series yet is smaller on the inside and weighs 300lbs+ more.

I was seriously considering the Shelby 350 when it first came out because it does look great and the 5.2 V8 is glorious. However, as time as gone on, the 5.2 has turned out to have very questionable reliability. I wouldn't touch a current gen 5.0 or 5.2 with a ten foot pole.

Ford and GM have made the upper tier Stangs and Camaros incredible performance cars (not talking about acceleration). However, to generate their bonkers handling numbers, the cars are outfitted with near race spec rubber that will last about 3,000-5,000 miles at best. These wonder tires are largely why the cars perform so well. Companies like BMW or Porsche don't outfit with tires like this. If you put a set of wonder tires on an M2 or 911, they differences would be staggering.

Lastly, the upper tier Stangs and Camaros are heavy as hell. This means they're hell on the expendable parts like the tires and brakes. You'll spend a small fortune keeping the performance up to snuff, whether on the street or the track.

[shovell242]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I'd be quite interested in the Mustang if they'd make the damn thing 2 series size and more like the Fox body size. The current gen Mustang is full of wasted space and is excessively large. There's no reason why that car is so much larger than a 2 series yet is smaller on the inside and weighs 300lbs+ more.

I was seriously considering the Shelby 350 when it first came out because it does look great and the 5.2 V8 is glorious. However, as time as gone on, the 5.2 has turned out to have very questionable reliability. I wouldn't touch a current gen 5.0 or 5.2 with a ten foot pole.

Ford and GM have made the upper tier Stangs and Camaros incredible performance cars (not talking about acceleration). However, to generate their bonkers handling numbers, the cars are outfitted with near race spec rubber that will last about 3,000-5,000 miles at best. These wonder tires are largely why the cars perform so well. Companies like BMW or Porsche don't outfit with tires like this. If you put a set of wonder tires on an M2 or 911, they differences would be staggering.

Lastly, the upper tier Stangs and Camaros are heavy as hell. This means they're hell on the expendable parts like the tires and brakes. You'll spend a small fortune keeping the performance up to snuff, whether on the street or the track.

Conversely, there is no reason the 2 series and more specifically the M2 Comp weighs in around the same as the Mustang. If this were a Lotus forum I'd happily agree, but the 2 is a porker, and believe it or not, the 2 series chassis at the limit on track DOES NOT feel nearly as composed as the S550 current-gen Mustang chassis. Nimble back road spirited driving aside.

The reliability concerns are not an issue. Use some Bayesian Thinking to realize that the cases posted on the internet represent a very small % of actual problems per unit. The GTR's transmissions explode, Cayman GT4's strut tower braces break, all 997s have IMS bearing issues, C7 Z06's have extremely poor cooling and melt on the track. You can go on and on.

You are completely wrong about the tire argument. Go look at lap times for the M4 GTS with sports Cup 2s and report back to me how those compare to GT350s on similar tracks

[stein_325i]

The GT350 is one of my favorite cars on sale today. Amazing value and feels in a way almost like an American successor to the E9X M3. An amazing Voodoo V8 engine that's naturally aspirated and high revving, awesome gearbox, fantastic steering (pre-2019 Models, new 350's share the 500's less communicative steering) and handling with a sublime exhaust that no M-car can touch, and overall an awesome experience that can't be had in any other car in the price range, save for maybe a Camaro, and I say this as a past owner of an M2C. The GT350 is just an all around excellent car, and won a comparison test against the M2, Supra and Cayman for a reason.

Do not go in thinking you are getting luxury, at the end of the day you need to remember the base Mustang starts at $26k which is also a value for what it is (although personally a 4-cylinder Mustang is not a proper Stang) and all versions above that are simply upgraded in the performance/chassis department not the interior. This is a performance value sports coupe with a raw and communicative feel that offers a lot of car for the $60k price range, not a luxury car. If you are looking for napa leather and soft touch door pockets you are simply looking at the wrong car. Its like a Tesla, you know the build quality is not the best, but you are buying it because it offers something special that not many other cars bring to the table for their price.

Pic my friend's GT350R which is even better than the regular 350.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by jstein55

The GT350 is one of my favorite cars on sale today. Amazing value and feels in a way almost like an American successor to the E9X M3. An amazing Voodoo V8 engine that's naturally aspirated and high revving, awesome gearbox, fantastic steering (pre-2019 Models, new 350's share the 500's less communicative steering) and handling with a sublime exhaust that no M-car can touch, and overall an awesome experience that can't be had in any other car in the price range, save for maybe a Camaro, and I say this as a past owner of an M2C. The GT350 is just an all around excellent car, and won a comparison test against the M2, Supra and Cayman for a reason.

Do not go in thinking you are getting luxury, at the end of the day you need to remember the base Mustang starts at $26k which is also a value for what it is (although personally a 4-cylinder Mustang is not a proper Stang) and all versions above that are simply upgraded in the performance/chassis department not the interior. This is a performance value sports coupe with a raw and communicative feel that offers a lot of car for the $60k price range, not a luxury car. If you are looking for napa leather and soft touch door pockets you are simply looking at the wrong car. Its like a Tesla, you know the build quality is not the best, but you are buying it because it offers something special that not many other cars bring to the table for their price.

Pic my friend's GT350R which is even better than the regular 350.

agreed they seem like amazing cars, the sound of them sends tingles down the spine. but in terms of creature comforts, im not talking about it not being an 8 series, im talking about my sub $20k scion that i owned before my current car having a more premium feeling interior that held up to use better than the admittedly lower model that i drove, which dont seem to be contented up much or given special treatment up the ladder.

perhaps one day ill just drive one and sounds like that experience potentially washes away whatever negatives there are otherwise.

[230iZTR]

The GT350 is a hell of a car, but I'd want an auto as a daily driver so at best it would be an eventual weekend car. Going down the range for the Mustang, I cross-shopped the Ecoboost against the 230i, and ultimately went with the BMW. The engine is good. Lots of low-end thrust like the 230i. The suspension didn't feel as settled and was a bit pogo-y with the performance package. It has an LSD from the factory, and can fit significantly more tire. But I didn't like the interior...it felt more like a meme than a car with "Mustang" or the logo stamped everywhere and dumb stuff like the speedo being labelled "landspeed velocity" in huge letters instead letting it speak for itself. The back seat was a joke and I'd never want anyone I value to have to sit back there.