[BLK235iNJ]

After all this I may go JB4 either using a custom map for my car or in adaptive mode. I'm not dumping $2300 for zero improvement.

Originally Posted by ska///235i

Im not hating on Dinan but most of the ppl I know that have Dinan tunes usually dont know shiet about tuning. They just do it for braggin rights so in my eyes this is exactly what Dinan targets and their focus is not on dyno numbers but rather on marketing BS..etc

But I do like their exhaust work

[HelzRage]

I'll go ahead and be the defender of Dinan and be devils advocate since that is the direction I would lean at this point anyway...

1.) Give Dinan credit for giving us something. We asked and they gave us data. Not a true dyno was given but data was given (I would argue in some points its better, more transparent data but I will get to that later). The biggest problem most had was that there was no baseline provided. Now it is.

2.) The original claims of the max power being 364 HP and 409 torque are still accurate according to the data provided. The claims of 44 HP and 79 torque over stock are still technically accurate since they never stated originally if it was based on their baseline or BMW's underrated claims. I will agree its a bit shady but every tuners data can be misleading since they are after all trying to sell product.

3.) That brings me to the "dyno" itself and how it is presented. First presentation... Its in crank numbers. Fine. Dinan has always done their numbers in crank since thats how BMW does it, blah, blah, blah. No reason for them to change that now since thats how they always have done it. This leads to the drivetrain loss aspect to convert the numbers to WHP. I could have sworn I had read before that their calculated drivetrain loss is 12%. I can't for the life of me find where I may have heard it online but I did stumble across an old article where they accidentally leaked their drivetrain percentage and it peaked at 12.2% (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=591804 & http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=49583). I would assume in 4+ years those numbers would stay the same or go down with improved technology. Regardless I think its safe to say a drivetrain loss of 15% max can be used with it probably leaning closer to 12%. That logic means the stock Dinan car ran 277.1 max HP (286.88 assuming 12%) and 322 (333.52 assuming 12%) torque at the wheel. With the tune with 15% loss and calculated for WHP it comes to 309.4 HP (320.32 for 12%) and 347.65 torque (359.92 for 12%). Not the most impressive numbers imaginable but its on par with the JB4 it appears.

The one thing I do actually like about this "dyno" is the chart underneath. Breaking down RPM levels and the gain at each RPM level quickly and easily is nice. Sure traditional dynos technically do the same thing but you have to guesstimate on the graph and are not getting totally accurate data. Not a major thing mind you but I personally like having that data easily in front of me.

The bottom line is the jist of the data provided is the same info you would get on a normal dyno. Sure you don't get the nuanced line graph which I do miss but considering I wasn't even expecting this much data I'll live.

3) I know this has been said time and time again but I will say it again. This reliance on dyno's to somehow adamantly prove things is the most asinine thing ever. The only way you will ever get an accurate result is to do it yourself, on the same dyno, same day, back to back. Period. There are too many variables that change the results some of which can be controlled by the operator to nudge in the direction of the result they desire. Dinan, Burger, whomever, can easily manipulate the numbers to help their cause in selling. Just having the data from a dyno and laying it out differently as Dinan has done is still the same data as the dyno. I'm drinking the Dinan kool aid a bit here but I would highly recommend going to http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/ and clicking on the article "The Dynamometer and the Modern BMW engine". Very thorough and an enlightening read albeit long.

4). I also appreciate the label saying that original cats were used. No cat removal / downpipes which would artificially inflate the numbers as some tuners do by being vague. They clearly state it is basically my point.

5.) I would like to think a company that builds and tunes race engines professionally and has some decent success in it knows what they are doing and gives a little more thought to their tunes then most when it comes to real world driving. Not simply cranking power so you get the best strait line time / speed (although that has its merits ). I am not dragging my cars 24/7. I drive them around and want to enjoy them on windy roads just as much as flooring it on the freeway. I want predictable smooth power delivery so all situations are covered. It's speculation but I would hope that Dinan brings that a bit more then most even if they don't necessarily bring the fastest straight line time in a 1/4 mile.

6.) Insert obligatory mention to warranty. After all we are talking about Dinan. lol

I'm sure I may have missed something that went through my head at some point but I have spent way to much time on this already. Only 1-3 people will read it anyway.

[HelzRage]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

Im not hating on Dinan but most of the ppl I know that have Dinan tunes usually dont know shiet about tuning. They just do it for braggin rights so in my eyes this is exactly what Dinan targets and their focus is not on dyno numbers but rather on marketing BS..etc

But I do like their exhaust work

They released a sound clip of the exhaust today as well. Sounds pretty nice I must admit. Pricey, but nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU06UaMJLPVg5dcKhjGj4BwA&v=AJE_DR3beNo

[BLK235iNJ]

Originally Posted by HelzRage

They released a sound clip of the exhaust today as well. Sounds pretty nice I must admit. Pricey, but nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU06UaMJLPVg5dcKhjGj4BwA&v=AJE_DR3beNo

[HelzRage]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

Really? The dude made a comment on exhaust. So I replied briefly about, exhaust. This was right after I posted a wall of text very much on the original topic and this is what your nit picking? Just, wow...

[Delnari]

Now that some of the post remarks have been made for and against I think my decision to keep the JB4 Stage 1 with my aFe Inake and now MPE muffler is best at this time. All in I have spent less than $1450 for my tuning which is still less than the Dinan Stage 1 alone. This setup runs very well and now that the exhaust has some miles burn in it sounds very good too.

Expect to see Dinan to release the new intake and Stage 2 maps before the end of year. Will look again at their posted chart numbers and see if it would be worth upgrading then. Maybe with the 10% sale they run a couple times a year and with HP in the 380+ range might be enough for me to buy in, but not now.

[BLK235iNJ]

Dude don't rage just playing around

Originally Posted by HelzRage

Really? The dude made a comment on exhaust. So I replied briefly about, exhaust. This was right after I posted a wall of text very much on the original topic and this is what your nit picking? Just, wow...

[BLK235iNJ]

You spent $1450 total intake, mpe and JB4? Installed?

Originally Posted by Delnari

Now that some of the post remarks have been made for and against I think my decision to keep the JB4 Stage 1 with my aFe Inake and now MPE muffler is best at this time. All in I have spent less than $1450 for my tuning which is still less than the Dinan Stage 1 alone. This setup runs very well and now that the exhaust has some miles burn in it sounds very good too.

Expect to see Dinan to release the new intake and Stage 2 maps before the end of year. Will look again at their posted chart numbers and see if it would be worth upgrading then. Maybe with the 10% sale they run a couple times a year and with HP in the 380+ range might be enough for me to buy in, but not now.

[Delnari]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

You spent $1450 total intake, mpe and JB4? Installed?

Yes sir, got a good deal on Amazon for the intake at $385.05 shipped (no taxes), JB4 Stage 1 for $386 shipped (no taxes), and MPE muffler for $650 shipped (no taxes). Add the cost for the Dyno run a little over $1500. Of course I did all installation myself which wasn't bad.

[HX_Guy]

I keep forgetting...do you have the aFe Momentum or aFe Magnum intake?

[escobar929]

The only way we'll ever know the real number from the Dinan tune is for an actual customer to take their car to an independent dyno. Manufactures are always going to do multiple runs on the stock car and on the tuned car, then will take the lowest stock vs the highest tuned, rather than an average of each. Thats why you'll always see exel style dyno sheets

[Delnari]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I keep forgetting...do you have the aFe Momentum or aFe Magnum intake?

I have the aFe Momentum Pro 5R Intake System

[HX_Guy]

Ok cool, that's the one I'm looking to get too. Nice deal you got on it, now it's around $422!

[1stm235i]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Ok cool, that's the one I'm looking to get too. Nice deal you got on it, now it's around $422!

Try autoplicity or autohance

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by escobar929

The only way we'll ever know the real number from the Dinan tune is for an actual customer to take their car to an independent dyno. Manufactures are always going to do multiple runs on the stock car and on the tuned car, then will take the lowest stock vs the highest tuned, rather than an average of each. Thats why you'll always see exel style dyno sheets

Yup, what we need is someone with a Dinan Stage 1and a Jb4 stage 2 to do dyno runs right after each other. Then we will have a clearer picture of what's going on

[ewohar]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

I can't wait for the tune to be available! Have others used Dinan before? What should I expect?

Stage 1 support mods needed?
Stage 2 "
Stage 3 "

Will they support add on mods and issue an updated tune?

cheers,

I have found Dinan to be extremely good at what they do. Their suspension mods for my 335is coupe were perfect, as was the ECU flash. Not sure why they are coming out with this piggyback unit though. If that is all they are offering for the m235, I may want to look at other vendors.

Before I had the Dinan ECU reflash I had a Vishnu piggy back unit and found the power delivery and low end torque to be much better than on the Vishnu. Granted, I did not attempt to do any fancy tuning or anything just wanted more power and Dinan delivered in spades.

[HelzRage]

Originally Posted by ewohar

Not sure why they are coming out with this piggyback unit though. If that is all they are offering for the m235, I may want to look at other vendors.

It's because no one, not even dinan, has been able to crack the encryption on the new generation. Piggyback is apparently the only option for the forseeable future.

[ewohar]

Originally Posted by HelzRage

Maybe they should get the NSA to help.


It's because no one, not even dinan, has been able to crack the encryption on the new generation. Piggyback is apparently the only option for the forseeable future.

But then the govt would know just how fast we are driving on those back streets, maybe not something we would want them to know

Thanks for reply

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by 1stm235i

Try autoplicity or autohance

Neither site caries the intake it seems.

[BLK235iNJ]

I found this write up...now I'm very unclear as to the numbers put up with Dinan.

If the differences below between the dynos are accurate how are folks hitting stock 302whp on a dynojet. That means a stock car should dyno 8% higher on the Dynapack 326whp. This would be the case for Dinan (they use dynapack). Now add the 12% drivetrain loss and its around 365hp at the crank. Not sure what the f is going on with these numbers. It's making zero sense. With my math I'm getting a zero increase.

Dinan help!!! I think the product was rushed out with bad supporting data.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here's a stock car on a dynojet by the info below dynapack should be 8-10% higher. Someone from Dinan please help here. The math is not adding up for anyone.

1. Dynojet - most popular in the USA. Considered the "standard" here in the states since most shops utilize them. For our theoretical "car", the Dynojet will read 100 rwhp, & 100 ft/lbs of torque.

With this dyno you drive up to the rollers, they strap the car down, and do a full throttle pass in 3rd or 4th gear. The dyno will calculate the power based on how fast the car will spin the rollers. This is called an inertia based dyno.

For WOT power passes that you can compare to each other on the internet, Dynojet's are perfect. They're everywhere! But most do not have any sort of load simulating capability. Since 2005 more and more Dynojet's sold have their eddy current loading device. So you can ID them, Dynojets are typically red or black.

2. Mustang Dyno's - not as nearly as popular as the Dynojet's, but all performance shops that have Mustang dyno's DO have the capability to simulate load on the car to map ECU's. These are also great dyno's, are very accurate, simulate load very well, and are repeatable every time. They are also inertia based dyno's where you'll drive the car up on the rollers, strap the car down, and make a 3rd or 4th gear pass.

These dyno's will always read ~12% LOWER than a Dynojet, which is our standard here in the states (unless the shop has messed with the gearing settings in the computer). Because of this, lots of the internet folk don't like to use them. They come on the internet, share their results and everyone says "why didn't you make more power with mod XX". So our theoretical car will show 88rwhp on the Mustang dyno.

These dyno's will always be blue.

3. Dynapack - These are the red headed step children here in the states. Not as common as the Dynojet or Dynapack, but these are the standard in Japan. These are fundamentally COMPLETELY different that the inertia type dyno's.

With the Dynapack (my favorite), you remove the rear wheels, attach the hubs of the car to the "pods", and make your pass.

The load is simulated on the car via a hydraulic pump. Because these are effectively inertia-less, they will read HIGHER than the standard Dynojet numbers by 8-10%. That number will vary depending on how "fast" your dyno run lasts (sweep time), but as a rule of thumb, they'll read ~8-10% higher. So with this dyno our car will now read ~109rwhp on average.

The pods are always red, but these are easiest to ID. If they are taking off your wheels, it's a Dynapack!

And understand one thing when it comes to dyno graphs and product claims! Every dyno graph can be cheated by dishonest individuals/companies. All of them. So always take every dyno claim with a grain of salt. If they are cheating their tests, the truth eventually comes out (usually). Be a smart consumer!

Discuss!

[Delnari]

From the pictures on Facebook and information gathered, Dinan indeed uses DynaPacks for their performance testing and publishing calculations. Your article states that there is an 8-10% increase over the rwhp. Let's give the Dinan Dynapack the higher end here and say it is at least 10% if not a touch more. So when they reported the highest output number of 326 HP that would go down to the Dynojet rwhp number of 293 HP. To me that is very close to what I have seen on my run with a Dynojet (albeit with a performance intake).

If you look at the photo from Facebook, Dinan uses one of the biggest wind tunnel fans on the front of the car to simulate high speed airflow. This is why I believe the Dynapack used by Dinan is giving a higher number than you would expect to see. Better real world driving simulation on the Dynapack then others are showing. So using the same percentage (10%) the max. HP from Dinan Stage 1 would equal 327 HP. Again, this is only a little higher than the JB4 Stage 1 (with intake) so the gains look to be true to the chart provided by Dinan. A maximum gain of 33 HP and 43 TQ over the stock numbers.

To me, everything looks on the up and up now. I will stay with the JB4 Stage 1 and wait for Dinan Stage 2 numbers given I may have the required components already installed. The small bump the Dinan Stage 1 is offering is not worth the additional cost over JB4 Stage 1, and would bet not worth the cost of the JB4 Stage 2 (multiple map setups) if that was the only factor in your decision.

[Delnari]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

I can't wait for the tune to be available! Have others used Dinan before? What should I expect?

Stage 1 Nothing additional required 93 Octane recommended
Stage 2 Dinan Intake & Exhaust (other performance brands maybe acceptable)
Stage 3 Stage 1 & 2 Items, plus Dinan Intercooler (Performance Oil Cooler recommended)