[albertw]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've had my LSD for quite some time and I'm still trying to find all the limits as they are so much higher, especially with the new Michelin PS4S tires. There's so much more traction now that the car actually feels slower to me because of the lack of drama. With the eLSD, the limits were a lot lower so you could explore the limits pretty easily on a B road. With the limits being higher, I have to be more careful as I can carry more speed and probably can't explore all the limits without a lot more risk. I greatly appreciate with high limits and dynamics though. I would NEVER go back. Again, it's a totally different car with the LSD.

This is a great post. It turns out that the things you like about the LSD and stickier tires are exactly the things I do not want.

All the content-free posts about how great the LSD is got me wondering whether I should get one for my car. It took a lot of prodding and provoking to get the facts out, and I want to thank you for finally showing clearly how an LSD is absolutely the wrong thing for my driving style.

[Sail Boat]

My only in-depth experiences with a limited slip are with an E30 with a rebuilt 4.10 Clutch LSD and VW GTI MK7 Performance Pack OE LSD, the two cars I owned prior to my M235i (Open Diff), although I have driven an M2 a few times and a friend's C63 P31 for about a week.

Compared to the E30, the M235i is far better in the snow and rain. That said, the E30 with an open diff is pathetic.

Compared to the MK7 GTI PP, the brake "torque vectoring" always got in the way of the LSD and couldn't ever tell if it was actually doing anything. I find the M235i is able to put down power better (but FWD/RWD debate blah blah blah).

Compared to the M2, the M235i doesn't put down power as well. Like the M235i, the brake system activates quite a bit. Should note that this M2 wore 275 section rear tires.

In the C63, it was very, very obvious that the LSD was working, especially in the rain. The damn thing would light up the rear at every opportunity. I imagine the C63 wouldn't go anywhere in bad weather.

In sum, the F22's brake system is very good.

[babaikram]

I echo this with a non LSD car. I actually feel safer driving mine with DSC off on MPSS tyres. I could judge the stability of the rear tyres and modulate the acceleration accordingly in he corner avoiding the over intrusive stability control that may over correct leading to loss of control. I love the squeamish nature of the car when putting down power in straight line

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by babaikram

I echo this with a non LSD car. I actually feel safer driving mine with DSC off on MPSS tyres. I could judge the stability of the rear tyres and modulate the acceleration accordingly in he corner avoiding the over intrusive stability control that may over correct leading to loss of control. I love the squeamish nature of the car when putting down power in straight line

You'd feel much safer, and confident, with an LSD. Just saying

These cars are great, out of the box. But until you try one with an LSD, or a newer M car to feel the experience, you'll never see how unstable/unsettled the open diff cars really are, in comparison. With DSC off, your car still uses the cross ABS traction feature which mitigates (albeit, poorly) what 20% of an LSD can do. Unfortunately, it always responds to late, and typically upsets the balance of the car. It actually will cause the car to jerk mid slide/oversteer, and to me that's not safe at all. I had to turn that ABS/lsd feature off because it was interfering with the engagement of the LSD on uneven surfaces.

[msej449]

For me, the mechanical LSD, the 'software' eLSD, xDrive and DSC=OFF are like four circles in a Venn diagram. Some areas they overlap, other areas they are on their own. So I don't see it as a LSD or eLSD alternative, or an xDrive vs LSD etc. I feel that they each have their characteristics, pros and cons, so it's really more a matter of what combination suits your driving style and circumstances.

If you have a RWD M-Lite then I think that even on public roads, the BMW LSD or similar is an advantageous retro-fit. It makes certain manoeuvres much more progressive and predictable, reducing the number of times the 'insurance' that is DSC has to intervene. But whether it's worth the cost is a tricky one, and depends a lot of your personal preferences and driving circumstances.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by albertw

This is a great post. It turns out that the things you like about the LSD and stickier tires are exactly the things I do not want.

All the content-free posts about how great the LSD is got me wondering whether I should get one for my car. It took a lot of prodding and provoking to get the facts out, and I want to thank you for finally showing clearly how an LSD is absolutely the wrong thing for my driving style.

Sorry, albertw, but I think you are in denial or just too cheap to pony up for the LSD. Otherwise, no one would ever say their "driving style" doesn't mesh with the advantages that the LSD provides. The LSD only provides more fun, more speed, more control, more predictability in all situations. Unless you enjoy spinning one wheel for some reason and/or the inability to keep your car tracking straight when trying to, there is absolutely no logical reason to prefer the open differential to the LSD. It's an expensive upgrade - I get it. But by all means, if you can afford it, it's worth every penny. That is, unless your "driving style" means literally never going wide-open throttle or trying to power oversteer... ever. In that case, why would someone buy such a powerful, sporty car to begin with?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

You'd feel much safer, and confident, with an LSD. Just saying

These cars are great, out of the box. But until you try one with an LSD, or a newer M car to feel the experience, you'll never see how unstable/unsettled the open diff cars really are, in comparison. With DSC off, your car still uses the cross ABS traction feature which mitigates (albeit, poorly) what 20% of an LSD can do. Unfortunately, it always responds to late, and typically upsets the balance of the car. It actually will cause the car to jerk mid slide/oversteer, and to me that's not safe at all. I had to turn that ABS/lsd feature off because it was interfering with the engagement of the LSD on uneven surfaces.

Agreed.

I'd also say driving in full nanny Sport more is more enjoyable now since the LSD limits spin so quickly that the nannies have no time/very limited time to intervene. This means far less instances of neutered power when trying to go heavy throttle.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by CP911

Sorry, albertw, but I think you are in denial or just too cheap to pony up for the LSD. Otherwise, no one would ever say their "driving style" doesn't mesh with the advantages that the LSD provides. The LSD only provides more fun, more speed, more control, more predictability in all situations. Unless you enjoy spinning one wheel for some reason and/or the inability to keep your car tracking straight when trying to, there is absolutely no logical reason to prefer the open differential to the LSD. It's an expensive upgrade - I get it. But by all means, if you can afford it, it's worth every penny. That is, unless your "driving style" means literally never going wide-open throttle or trying to power oversteer... ever. In that case, why would someone buy such a powerful, sporty car to begin with?

I'd agree. Also, a non-LSD equipped N55/B58 is far more of a hooligan car as it spins the tires so easily, whether going straight or in a turn. If you want to bring attention to yourself and like spinning the tires a lot and sliding, then stick with the open diff. These cars on P7s would be a tire shredders wet dream. Seems quite hypocritical though considering his prior preachy "hooligan" statements.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by CP911

Sorry, albertw, but I think you are in denial or just too cheap to pony up for the LSD. Otherwise, no one would ever say their "driving style" doesn't mesh with the advantages that the LSD provides. The LSD only provides more fun, more speed, more control, more predictability in all situations. Unless you enjoy spinning one wheel for some reason and/or the inability to keep your car tracking straight when trying to, there is absolutely no logical reason to prefer the open differential to the LSD. It's an expensive upgrade - I get it. But by all means, if you can afford it, it's worth every penny. That is, unless your "driving style" means literally never going wide-open throttle or trying to power oversteer... ever. In that case, why would someone buy such a powerful, sporty car to begin with?

Since you're calling me stupid, I'm going to return the favor. You are too ignorant of how cars work to understand my point of view. I suspect you have no idea what the rear tires do while turning. The whole point of an open diff is to ALLOW you to spin one wheel. If you're near the traction limit in a corner, that puts most of the rear cornering forces on the other wheel which immediately slides. You control the slide by adjusting how much the spinning wheel spins.

If you don't like doing that, fine. But don't call someone an idiot just because that's the main thing he likes about this car.

You also seem to have trouble understanding that for me, on the street more speed does not equal more fun if I'm doing the same thing (sliding). It just increases the risk level.

I bought the 240 for passing slow cars in the twisties. If not for that, the 230 would have enough power for what I want out of the car.

If I want great driving dynamics, I'll ride just about any bike except a cruiser (my current bike is sublime). However, I am not willing to slide a bike on the street and my roadracing days are 45 years behind me. I like my car because of the easy, predictable way it slides in Sport+, not because of the steering or driving dynamics. I agree it doesn't slide well in any other mode. (In Sport the nannies do weird things, and in DSC Off the eLSD is too unpredicatable. I haven't tried sliding in Comfort.)

[albertw]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I'd agree. Also, a non-LSD equipped N55/B58 is far more of a hooligan car as it spins the tires so easily, whether going straight or in a turn. If you want to bring attention to yourself and like spinning the tires a lot and sliding, then stick with the open diff. These cars on P7s would be a tire shredders wet dream. Seems quite hypocritical though considering his prior preachy "hooligan" statements.

My definition of hooliganism is sliding or excessive speed or acceleration while others are watching. What I do when I can see the whole corner and beyond and am sure no one is near is my business only and doesn't qualify. Your definition may be different.

[morphomeman]

As the lucky owner of a 235x, I don't have to indulge in this sort of mud-slinging.
But really, to each their own. Stop shouting about how much better your LSD-equipped penis is!

[babaikram]

I have extensively test driven M2 and M4 in order to see whether they are much of better upgrade and worth the financial penalty. I found them stable and more secure and you could out the power down in C corner to over steer. Thus they would be very useful if you track your car or race.

However somehow, I find my m240i not too far from them, slightly more dangerous in Sports plus. As in order to be safe i divide bends and corners to series of apex to aim for, accelarate to the apex, go off throttle, make a slightly sharp turn and accelerate to the next apex when taking a corner especially roundabouts.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by albertw

Since you're calling me stupid, I'm going to return the favor. You are too ignorant of how cars work to understand my point of view. I suspect you have no idea what the rear tires do while turning. The whole point of an open diff is to ALLOW you to spin one wheel. If you're near the traction limit in a corner, that puts most of the rear cornering forces on the other wheel which immediately slides. You control the slide by adjusting how much the spinning wheel spins.

If you don't like doing that, fine. But don't call someone an idiot just because that's the main thing he likes about this car.

You also seem to have trouble understanding that for me, on the street more speed does not equal more fun if I'm doing the same thing (sliding). It just increases the risk level.

So let me get this straight. You think having a LSD and using its full potential safely under wide-open throttle is considered "hooliganism," but your "slides" are okay under your suddenly clarified definition of what it means to be a hooligan in a car? Give me a break!

If I'm too ignorant of how cars work, I am not sure what that makes you, because you are dead wrong about the purpose of open differentials. They are not meant for induced one-wheel spinning as you claim. Instead, they are made to allow both wheels to spin at different speeds (hence, the name "differential") with the sole purpose of allowing a car to go around a turn more efficiently, as the outside wheel creates a longer arc through the turn and therefore must rotate at a higher speed than the inside wheel if tire dragging is to be avoided and tire life to be maximized.

Spinning the inside wheel and exploiting the high lateral forces on the outside wheel to cause a slide is literally defeating the entire purpose of what an open differential is designed to do. There is also no control of the slide when this happens. You are at the mercy of the speed you are carrying through the corner and the resulting lateral load on the outside tire, which is very difficult to judge. If it weren't for DSC/traction control braking individual wheels to keep within the programmed DSC yaw+speed parameters, you'd likely find yourself in a ditch in no time.

Oh, and you're welcome for the schooling.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

Stop shouting about how much better your LSD-equipped penis is!

Indulging today, are we?

By the way, no one is shouting about anything. Simply educating those who clearly don't understand the benefits and entire purpose of upgrading to the LSD.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by CP911

you are dead wrong about the purpose of open differentials.

I guess it's important not to leave out any words when dealing with people whose mouths move when they read.

For you, what I should have written is: "In the context of performance driving the whole point of using an open differential . . ."

Then, maybe I would need to explain to you what context means.

[MassNerd]

Please quit with the bickering and return to the topic at hand: what a LSD does and how it drives.

This was a great thread until recently.

[Unicorn123]

Originally Posted by MassNerd

Please quit with the bickering and return to the topic at hand: what a LSD does and how it drives.

This was a great thread until recently.

Well said! Thank you!

[Dylan86]

Can feel the LSD working all the time, not just in performance scenario's. People are in denial like...

I suppose some like it loose/sloppy, and that's okay (lol). I like my rear ends nice and *toight*