[khcoaching]

Not really how I wanted to start a first post, but here it goes:

I bought a used 2015 228i 8AT with the ZTR package in July after a long search for a car that checked all the boxes for my driving and coaching needs. (Easy to drive, not a lot of power, great handling and leave it stock low maintenance) The car was an original owner, incredibly clean and well maintained with 61k miles and never tracked before. I bought the car specifically to track and train with my clients for my coaching business. When I bought it, I had an inspection completed (all good) and went ahead and did an oil service, brake flush, pads, plugs, coils, etc.

I tracked the car 3 times with students and I did a 1/2 a day myself before I went ahead and did camber plates and track alignment - still on the stock staggered wheels/tires and all season tires. The car has been amazing and exactly what I wanted. Today, I took the car to the track, hoping to get a session in to see how the alignment worked, still on the same tires, after I finished with my client for the day. (We were using his car today, a 2019 M3C)

I was driving at The Ridge Motorsports Park (new pavement!) and on my 4th flying lap, the car hiccuped coming up into turn 10 and then lost power, completely shutting off at turn 13 and I coasted in. The usual smoke under the hood, small puddle oil underneath, just a thunk when you try to start it.... blown motor.

Crud....I'm bummed, not mad, as I have been in this business long enough understand the consequences of tracking vehicles. Oil was fresh, the level spot on and the car ran amazing....until it didn't. (Oh, the alignment was worth 2.5 seconds!)

So - what are my options? I don't see a ton of pathways for a performance built N20 motor. All I want is stock level HP, that I can track for ages with solid and consistent maintenance. Thoughts? Options?

Ken Hill

[PeanuKeeyes]

Yikes! Sobering first post.. I’m sorry to hear about this, that is a major bummer for sure. A little scary also as I’m trailing you in terms of mods, mileage, and track time with my 2016 ZTR. These engines seem to have trouble handling a ton of braking and cornering force due to massive oil pressure loss. Not sure if that’s what your issue was or if it was timing chain guide or what. Any idea? Kind of makes me want to stay away from camber plates so that I’m forced to be more gentle in the bends though!

There are forged parts available for this motor and I’ve given it some consideration but the oil pressure issue would need to be addressed regardless and if you close the deck you have considerable cooling issues to tackle, etc. $$$

If it were me, I’d opt for a straight up n20 swap. Pull that motor and put it on the bench and sort through it. Maybe you can repair it over time and have it as a backup. If the rest of the car is well sorted, it would be a shame to have to give up on it this early.

Keep us posted

[ngl]

Sorry to hear about this. I think it was oil starvation. I logged under 6PSI in corners without coilovers and camber plates, so I delayed installing those and instead I'm trying to find a dealer in EU to buy an Accusump.

Not sure where I will put it yet, I would like it to be in the engine compartment because I also daily drive the car, but it is the cheapest way to save the engine if you track the car unless you have the budget to go dry sump.

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Yikes! Sobering first post.. I’m sorry to hear about this, that is a major bummer for sure. A little scary also as I’m trailing you in terms of mods, mileage, and track time with my 2016 ZTR. These engines seem to have trouble handling a ton of braking and cornering force due to massive oil pressure loss. Not sure if that’s what your issue was or if it was timing chain guide or what. Any idea? Kind of makes me want to stay away from camber plates so that I’m forced to be more gentle in the bends though!

There are forged parts available for this motor and I’ve given it some consideration but the oil pressure issue would need to be addressed regardless and if you close the deck you have considerable cooling issues to tackle, etc. $$$

If it were me, I’d opt for a straight up n20 swap. Pull that motor and put it on the bench and sort through it. Maybe you can repair it over time and have it as a backup. If the rest of the car is well sorted, it would be a shame to have to give up on it this early.

Keep us posted

The plan right now is to go with a new BMW long block....I'm hoping to add a little oil baffling to the oil pan along with a few other minor updates. (Not looking to increase the power on this car)

The car is fantastic and for sure I want to keep and sort it out!

Ken

[PeanuKeeyes]

Good plan. I have read that people run into space issues with trying to add baffling to the stock pan but maybe something can be done. Looking forward to seeing your solution. Passing on the accusump? After reading this post, I immediately added that back to my mods list lol.

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Passing on the accusump? After reading this post, I immediately added that back to my mods list lol.

Ha! I would prefer not to go that route, but it may be inevitable.

[PeanuKeeyes]

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1566013&page=2

Check this out! — also, go to page 5 to see his updated baffle design to resist both left and right cornering forces..

[ngl]

I also considered the baffles but I'm not sure how well the rubber trap doors work in the cold ( because I daily drive the car and winters are cold here ) and taking the oil pan down every oil change to inspect them would also be inconvenient.

Also they don't fix the problem under heavy braking, they only help for cornering ( in the case of the stock pan ). Bimmerworld has a upgraded oil pan, but sadly it seems to be the same design as the OE one, but in aluminum.
It would be awesome if they could've offered it directly with baffles. Maybe if enough interest is shown they might consider it.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by ngl

I also considered the baffles but I'm not sure how well the rubber trap doors work in the cold...

Bimmerworld has a upgraded oil pan, but sadly it seems to be the same design as the OE one, but in aluminum.

How necessary are those rubber bits, I wonder? Seems that by just having some structure on either side that doesn’t block flow under normal conditions would be enough to improve things in hot corners.

The OP on that N20 build claims that straight line braking doesn’t starve the motor but I have seen reports where that doesn’t quite hold up. — I emailed Steve Dinan’s new company last night to see if there were any plans to revisit N20 components such as the extra 2 quart baffled pan design he had built for the limited N20 race engine. That man still holds the key to this.

The aluminum pan is interesting. I saw that but some BMW mechanics claim that the plastic pans are more durable nowadays. A steel pan would be better IMO, but each have their drawbacks. At least with a steel design, you could bring it to a competent welder and have peace of mind with a permanent baffle system.. you could with the aluminum also at the expense of some structural integrity.

Edit:
I reached out to Canton racing products, as they conveniently are located 5 miles down the road from me. They offer custom baffled oil sump services and estimate a $500 - $800 range for a complete custom baffled build. I am ordering the aluminum pan for their reference and will start a new thread on this once things are in motion.

[ngl]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Edit:
I reached out to Canton racing products, as they conveniently are located 5 miles down the road from me. They offer custom baffled oil sump services and estimate a $500 - $800 range for a complete custom baffled build. I am ordering the aluminum pan for their reference and will start a new thread on this once things are in motion.

This is awesome news. If they can make that I'm totally interested in one if the resellers in EU will pick it up. Hell, if they don't I'll just import it because it is still cheaper than a new engine.

As for the low pressure under heavy braking, I was logging around 12 PSI at the end of a straight line, which is low even for idle ( 20-22PSI ) and this was at 5000+rpm. So I would say we do have a real problem with hard braking, who says otherwise is not braking hard enough.
Also, this was on street tires, I don't plan on using slicks / semi until I have the whole oiling problem sorted out.

Hopefully Canton can come up with a product soon, I'm sure many would be interested in a properly designed pan with baffles and they sure have the experience to build it.

[PeanuKeeyes]

They are currently not offering one-off custom builds so I promptly informed them that they have a following on this and multiple potential buyers if it works out. Hopefully that was convincing enough to not have to buy several of these things and sell them myself lol. -- I wish I had clearance specs for oil pan to oil pick up. I have been looking for specifics but haven't found anything. you? It definitely would be helpful info. Maybe BMW can provide this, I'm not sure.

Edit: it’s ~ 5mm clearance in most places... not encouraging.

[khcoaching]

I have a contact that does some work for Steve Dinan and has a message in to him.....

[K8_M235i]

I didn't know n20s had the same oiling faults n55s have. I spun a bearing on my m235i at Watkins Glen, same scenario, hard braking into the toe and then the car bucked accelerating up the hill. N55s also suffer mainly under hard braking or any corner that would force the oil to the front of the pan.

If my m235 were my dedicated track car I would add a baffle or f8x dual sump to my car.

Baffles are becoming more common for N55s. This company makes one with provided logging data. Might be worth it to reach out to them. https://www.mlperformance.co.uk/prod...le-m135i-m235i

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

I have a contact that does some work for Steve Dinan and has a message in to him.....

Please keep us updated. -- I also reached out to my shop Munich Motorsports in East Windsor, CT which now has a working relationship with CarBahn. Maybe if enough people keep after it, we'll get their attention.

[ngl]

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

I didn't know n20s had the same oiling faults n55s have. I spun a bearing on my m235i at Watkins Glen, same scenario, hard braking into the toe and then the car bucked accelerating up the hill. N55s also suffer mainly under hard braking or any corner that would force the oil to the front of the pan.

If my m235 were my dedicated track car I would add a baffle or f8x dual sump to my car.

Yeah, basically all street cars (regardless of brand) with wet sump oil system have this problem, but since they are "street cars" this is accepted as cost reduction for car manufacturers.

So when we're talking of buyers for baffle systems, every track junky is a potential client if he has more than a year experience and started to drive over the wet sump limits.

Even the M cars with their dual pumps and bigger sump are only rated to 1.2 sustained G's. With proper track tires anyone can easily go past those limits.

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

Baffles are becoming more common for N55s. This company makes one with provided logging data. Might be worth it to reach out to them. https://www.mlperformance.co.uk/prod...le-m135i-m235i

Nice find, I'll email them also, so they see there is real interest .

[K8_M235i]

[QUOTE=ngl;27007917]

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

Yeah, basically all street cars (regardless of brand) with wet sump oil system have this problem, but since they are "street cars" this is accepted as cost reduction for car manufacturers.

So when we're talking of buyers for baffle systems, every track junky is a potential client if he has more than a year experience and started to drive over the wet sump limits.

Even the M cars with their dual pumps and bigger sump are only rated to 1.2 sustained G's. With proper track tires anyone can easily go past those.

The f8x setup seems to be be adequate for m235ir's. They are able to run 24hr races with the same dual sump that N55 M2s have. If I tracked my n55 on fast tires I would probably do rod bearings every season like I do with my S54 race car.

[ngl]

It is adequate. But endurance racing is about sustained performance, not peak performance, so they don't push the cars as one would in time attack or hill climb.

That being said, in endurance if you see oil starvation it is most likely due to oil pump failure rather than G forces.

What I was saying about sustained G rating was referring to tracks with corners fast enough and long enough so you spend more than 5 seconds there and wet sumps are at a disadvantage. I've seen a few onboard YouTube videos of engine failure on such long turns, they are easy to find.

Now, while for the M235i there is a BMW Motorsport solution to the problem ( one that even comes with a dipstick ) for 2 litter engines there is not, and this is where we need someone like Canton or MMR Performance to come in.

PS. I got an answer from MMR Performance saying that if there is enough interest they would consider producing something for the N20.

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by ngl

PS. I got an answer from MMR Performance saying that if there is enough interest they would consider producing something for the N20.

The shop doing my engine replacement has done another N20 with the replacement aluminum pan and added baffles, along the same lines as what navardi is talking about here:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1783473

For sure this would be a very welcome mod!

Ken

[ngl]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

The shop doing my engine replacement has done another N20 with the replacement aluminum pan and added baffles

Can they share some images ? Or take some on your engine when they do it ?

The only problem with how navardi has done his setup is that it only fixes cornering issues, the braking will still be an issue. Still better than stock though.

If there is no way to add a baffle to the front, I was also thinking of a small pump that would pickup oil from the front and return it to the back ( like the M cars ) that would be turned on by brake pedal input or G forces by the data logger.
I'm still waiting for my RaceCapture to arrive to start experimenting how it is possible to define such triggers. They allow writing your own code so it can be very specific ( you can target certain pressure, rpm and brake pedal position, etc ).

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by ngl

Can they share some images ? Or take some on your engine when they do it ?

The only problem with how navardi has done his setup is that it only fixes cornering issues, the braking will still be an issue. Still better than stock though.

If there is no way to add a baffle to the front, I was also thinking of a small pump that would pickup oil from the front and return it to the back ( like the M cars ) that would be turned on by brake pedal input or G forces by the data logger.
I'm still waiting for my RaceCapture to arrive to start experimenting how it is possible to define such triggers. They allow writing your own code so it can be very specific ( you can target certain pressure, rpm and brake pedal position, etc ).

For sure I'll get pics. Yep, the braking is an issue and from the looks of it, not much can be done there. I'll keep you posted as we get it apart. Car goes to the shop tomorrow and teardown sometime after that.

Ken

[ScottSmith]

Seems there are a couple threads floating around addressing the same issue. If anyone ends up buying the aluminum pan, can you weigh it? I'm curious how it compares to the plastic pan. I think the AWD aluminum pan is nearly 10 lbs vs the 3 lbs plastic pan.

The aluminum pan is interesting. I saw that but some BMW mechanics claim that the plastic pans are more durable nowadays. A steel pan would be better IMO, but each have their drawbacks. At least with a steel design, you could bring it to a competent welder and have peace of mind with a permanent baffle system.. you could with the aluminum also at the expense of some structural integrity.

The stock pan is plastic. I wouldn't worry about losing some structural integrity of an aluminum oil pan.

What I was saying about sustained G rating was referring to tracks with corners fast enough and long enough so you spend more than 5 seconds there and wet sumps are at a disadvantage.

With an accusump, my car seems able to survive a 6 second 1.2g banked left hand turn (Sonoma) and an 8 second 1+g unbanked left hand turn (Thunderhill). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...47&postcount=9

If there is no way to add a baffle to the front, I was also thinking of a small pump that would pickup oil from the front and return it to the back ( like the M cars ) that would be turned on by brake pedal input or G forces by the data logger.

Someone tried this on an N55, and it didn't work well. Google "addressing n5x oiling and spun rod bearings accusump installed" especially posts by Asbjorn.

[ngl]

Here is an update on my research. I found this company in South Africa. It builds dry sump kits for the GTC series in South Africa.

I've attached a few shots of how this looks on the N20. Since they are run in a regulated racing series, they should hold up well and be race proven.

Engines in the series produce 300+ KW