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      12-11-2018, 08:44 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
Dear, could you give any examples of this military invasion? After all, if there is an invasion of the aggressor, then there must be some kind of defense? Battles, shootings, sacrifices were supposed to be?
What is this for an utterly stupid deduction?
They went in with a vastly superior force so surrender was immediate.
Apparantly you don't know the meaning of the word "invasion".
The russian militairy has no business in Crimea. Russia shows here that it has no respect for borders of souvereign states acknowledged by the UN.

Do you also think its Ok if Austria were to invade the north of Italy or for Germany to invade the west of Poland, the west of the Czech republic or the east of France and Belgium? Or Ireland invading parts of northern ireland?
Strange that you have an opposite sense of right and wrong than the rest of the free democratic world, not respecting other countries' land and assets that came to be by democratically formed mutually signed treaties.
If there's a majority of people from another country living in a border region, thats not a valid excuse for that other country to invade and annex those grounds with a militairy invasion.
If a country thinks a certain area of another country would be better off belonging to them, the proper way is to try and achieve that is through diplomatic negotiations, not by militairy invasion. But then again whats to expect from a former KGB fascist.
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      12-11-2018, 09:25 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
I have a feeling that this protest like most protests has had it's grievances grow from the original complaint which seem'd to be the increase of carbon taxes on gas and diesel, I think that has now grown to include the view that political leaders are out of touch, elite, and the general cost of living has become too high, I think what also falls into this view, the elite political leader who is out of touch encompasses the immigration from the middle east.

I'm not surprised the French government needs more tax revenue given the huge influx of migrants and the impact that would have on the economy,
I mean hiring an ex banker to run your country...does it surprise anyone he gives massive tax breaks to the large corporations and his friends and then institutes taxes on the poor via a diesel tax & a tax hike on pensioners? The diesel tax was also not remotely sufficient to actually de-carbonize France and is already a very low emitter. It just hurts the people who don't live in the city and have to travel there for work or play. A tax hike on pensioners? I assume they vote in higher percentages just like in the States.

Macron just comes off as massively elitist and out of touch. His speech last night did not help quell the unrest.



The students are now starting in and barricading schools and having protests making the schools close. Youth unemployment has jumped to 22 percent! You can expect they are angry there are no jobs for them when almost a 1/4 of them can't work. Unemployment is almost at 10%. France needs to right the ship and fast. https://www.france24.com/en/20181207...ines-kneel-mud <-- Police forcing student to kneel in mud with hands behind back. Are you trying to make the parents hate you?



They should also stop all of the immigration until they can fix their country. No reason to bring in people who are a drain on society in a country that already does not have enough jobs and expensive social services and living conditions.

Macron will be out, he only won because of Le Pen. Approval rating is like 20%, last president left office with 4%. He will be there soon. I would rather have seen what Le Pen would have done differently personally. Even if she is a bit radical.


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      12-11-2018, 09:31 AM   #135
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I mean hiring an ex banker to run your country...does it surprise anyone he gives massive tax breaks to the large corporations and his friends and then institutes taxes on the poor via a diesel tax & a tax hike on pensioners? The diesel tax was also not remotely sufficient to actually de-carbonize France and is already a very low emitter. It just hurts the people who don't live in the city and have to travel there for work or play. A tax hike on pensioners? I assume they vote in higher percentages just like in the States.

Macron just comes off as massively elitist and out of touch. His speech last night did not help quell the unrest.



The students are now starting in and barricading schools and having protests making the schools close. Youth unemployment has jumped to 22 percent! You can expect they are angry there are no jobs for them when almost a 1/4 of them can't work. Unemployment is almost at 10%. France needs to right the ship and fast.

They should also stop all of the immigration until they can fix their country. No reason to bring in people who are a drain on society in a country that already does not have enough jobs and expensive social services and living conditions.

Macron will be out, he only won because of Le Pen. Approval rating is like 20%, last president left office with 4%. He will be there soon. I would rather have seen what Le Pen would have done differently personally. Even if she is a bit radical.

I've always believed that even a hard right politician getting elected would only pull western democracy's towards the centre as most are pretty left leaning already. I hope Trudeau is watching what's happening in France, because he is implementing almost identical policies here in Canada and I think the silent majority is feeling a lot like the French.
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      12-11-2018, 09:39 AM   #136
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      12-11-2018, 09:43 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
They went in with a vastly superior force so surrender was immediate.
Apparantly you don't know the meaning of the word "invasion".
Who went? Where did they went? You have very superficial knowledge - what was going on there and how...
The bottom line is that the population in this territory (the absolute majority of the population, the vast majority) made an independent choice - they did not want to stay in a country like Ukraine.
This is their sovereign right, the right of the people, expressed clearly and practically unanimously.
Are you against the expression of the right of this people to self-determination?

P.S. Hold this referendum now, in 4 years - you will get exactly the same results.
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      12-11-2018, 09:51 AM   #138
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They should also stop all of the immigration until they can fix their country. No reason to bring in people who are a drain on society in a country that already does not have enough jobs and expensive social services and living conditions.
And what part of immigration do you think is coming to work in france?
The part that you cant stop, being eastern europeans. Part of being the EU is free movement of trade and people (it would be similar to say people from kansas going off to work in texas or new york), so you cant stop that immigration. They dont 'bring in' those people, they come by themselves, and getting hired by companies. Thats how the capitalist system works.

And thats the part thats pressing on the employment rate in France (and most of western europe); it's the part coming from Eastern Europe. Polish, bulgarians, hungarians, lithuanians etc etc. They are everywhere here, doing the simple low paid hard jobs. 50% of all lorry drivers is probably polish or baltic here (to give an example).
And they mostly target the jobs from the people in the yellow vests. The simple underpayed unschooled labour.
And then Macron also has to cope with the aftermath of Hollande; thousends of silly subsidized jobs that were created to tackle unemployment but don't really contribute to the economy.

So like I wrote before, the only real solution for the french is getting the french to a higher (professional) level, so that that part of france that wears the yellow vests doesnt have to compete with the polish, bulgarians etc.
But I don't see any argument layed down by the yellow vests that points to that realisation. They just want more money, they arent interested in joint possibilities to better themselves on a professional scale.
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      12-11-2018, 09:58 AM   #139
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If Canada had a way to import more immigrants I am sure they would just my opinion as an American outsider.



https://www.politico.eu/article/opin...ole-in-budget/
&
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...bruno-Le-maire <-- France is now joining Italy in breaking EU rules.

"Last night he offered his troubled nation astonishing concessions that will see him not only add to Brussels’ fiscal budget but also dangerously inflate Paris’ own budget to over 100 percent of gross domestic product (GDP). But the massive hand out goes DIRECTLY against EU rules and his own insistence on national spending and fiscal prudence – and is set to see France joining Italy in defiance of it’s own EU spending laws. Public spending, which at 57 percent of GDP is among the highest in Europe."
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      12-11-2018, 10:10 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
And what part of immigration do you think is coming to work in france?
The part that you cant stop, being eastern europeans. Part of being the EU is free movement of trade and people (it would be similar to say people from kansas going off to work in texas or new york), so you cant stop that immigration. They dont 'bring in' those people, they come by themselves, and getting hired by companies. Thats how the capitalist system works.

And thats the part thats pressing on the employment rate in France (and most of western europe); it's the part coming from Eastern Europe. Polish, bulgarians, hungarians, lithuanians etc etc. They are everywhere here, doing the simple low paid hard jobs. 50% of all lorry drivers is probably polish or baltic here (to give an example).
And they mostly target the jobs from the people in the yellow vests. The simple underpayed unschooled labour.
And then Macron also has to cope with the aftermath of Hollande; thousends of silly subsidized jobs that were created to tackle unemployment but don't really contribute to the economy.

So like I wrote before, the only real solution for the french is getting the french to a higher (professional) level, so that that part of france that wears the yellow vests doesnt have to compete with the polish, bulgarians etc.
But I don't see any argument layed down by the yellow vests that points to that realisation. They just want more money, they arent interested in joint possibilities to better themselves on a professional scale.

So it sounds like the issue is being part of the EU. It allows free travel into France and the money made there is sent out of France back to their home country. Same happens with illegal immigrants in the USA. So not only do they take jobs from the French people, the money is then not reinvested into the French economy. There is nothing wrong with back breaking hard work and working with your hands being a laborer. The entire population is never going to all be 'professionally educated to a higher level' to the point that they will never need to do manual labor. That is not a realistic goal. Not everyone is suited to higher education, that is why there needs to be jobs in all countries for people with less education. Why would you want your plumber you pay to send your money out of the country? Wouldn't you want the people building your home to the French and know the 200k you just invested is going beck into your country and 1/4 of it(the profit) is not being sent away? People in France want to work from what I have read, their jobs it sounds like are being stolen from them because of the EU travel & work policies and companies willing to higher people who will work for less. Yes this is how capitalism works, but you need to have strong boarders so the local companies pay the low wages to the French people and not foreigners.

If you left the EU then you could kick out everyone taking the jobs from the French people right? Kick them out, unemployment goes down, tax revenue up, seems simple. It's so weird the idea of free travel & work within competing countries is not working out. It's almost like you should take care of your own country 1st and then help out your neighbors.


If you google EU failing there is a ton of information on it: https://hbr.org/2013/06/the-european-union-a-failed-ex I wonder how long it will last after Britain exits in 2019. All it takes is one or two more before it all falls apart. Which I am sure is what Russia wants btw.

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      12-11-2018, 10:20 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Torgus View Post


They should also stop all of the immigration until they can fix their country. No reason to bring in people who are a drain on society in a country that already does not have enough jobs and expensive social services and living conditions.
And what part of immigration do you think is coming to work in france?
The part that you cant stop, being eastern europeans. Part of being the EU is free movement of trade and people (it would be similar to say people from kansas going off to work in texas or new york), so you cant stop that immigration. They dont 'bring in' those people, they come by themselves, and getting hired by companies. Thats how the capitalist system works.

And thats the part thats pressing on the employment rate in France (and most of western europe); it's the part coming from Eastern Europe. Polish, bulgarians, hungarians, lithuanians etc etc. They are everywhere here, doing the simple low paid hard jobs. 50% of all lorry drivers is probably polish or baltic here (to give an example).
And they mostly target the jobs from the people in the yellow vests. The simple underpayed unschooled labour.
And then Macron also has to cope with the aftermath of Hollande; thousends of silly subsidized jobs that were created to tackle unemployment but don't really contribute to the economy.

So like I wrote before, the only real solution for the french is getting the french to a higher (professional) level, so that that part of france that wears the yellow vests doesnt have to compete with the polish, bulgarians etc.
But I don't see any argument layed down by the yellow vests that points to that realisation. They just want more money, they arent interested in joint possibilities to better themselves on a professional scale.
Frexit.
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      12-11-2018, 10:27 AM   #142
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So it sounds like the issue is being part of the EU. It allows free travel into France and the money made there is sent out of France back to their home country. Same happens with illegal immigrants in the USA.

Those people from eastern europe arent illegal immigrants.
Its more the situation that for instance someone from kansas or oklahoma is going to work in california or texas. These are all US citizens like the polish and bulgarians, lituaians, estonians etc are EU citizens.

Yes you can leave the EU like the UK is planning now. If thats a sensible move or not, that still has to proove itself. I mean by far the largest economic trade partner for either the UK or France is the EU itself.
And whether or not the EU is failing: there are just as many links about the EU succeeding. For now the euro is still a pretty strong currency and employment is pretty low in quite a few countries (where I live for example unemployment is lower than the US. Same goes for Germany, there the unemployment is also lower, so they're also doing fine, despite the vast amount of polish, bulgarians etc there (much more even than in france or the UK). And I estimate the average german employee of a higher degree and education/development than the average french employee. In germany virtually everyone speaks english on a good level, and in France thats poor at best.
That has always been the case: the french only look inwards towards themselves. And imho that also goes for the spanish and to some degree the italains. And now France pays the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Frexit.
I'd rather see the french leave the EU than the british.
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      12-11-2018, 10:37 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
Who went? Where did they went? You have very superficial knowledge - what was going on there and how...
The bottom line is that the population in this territory (the absolute majority of the population, the vast majority) made an independent choice - they did not want to stay in a country like Ukraine.
This is their sovereign right, the right of the people, expressed clearly and practically unanimously.
Are you against the expression of the right of this people to self-determination?

P.S. Hold this referendum now, in 4 years - you will get exactly the same results.
Holy sticking your head in the ground! And onerdriver appreciated it. Damn...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26644082
he annexation of Crimea was the smoothest invasion of modern times. It was over before the outside world realised it had even started.

And until Tuesday 18 March, when a group of pro-Russian gunmen attacked a small Ukrainian army base in Simferopol, killing one officer and injuring another, it was entirely bloodless.

For much of February, thousands of extra soldiers were quietly sent in to the bases which Russia was permitted by treaty to own in Crimea. Civilian "volunteers" moved in too. The plan was carried out secretly and with complete success.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...endship_Treaty
Contents of the treaty
Under the agreement both parties ensure the citizens of the other countries' rights and freedoms on the same basis and to the same extent that it provides for its citizens, except as prescribed by national legislation of States or international treaties.

Every country protects in established order of the rights of its citizens living in another country, in accordance with commitments to documents Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and other universally recognized principles and norms of international law, agreements within the CIS.

The agreement, among other things prematurely confirms the inviolability of borders of countries[8], regardless that Russia and Ukraine have never agreed on the final ratification and demarcation of a border between the two countries.[9]

Under Article 2:

«In accord with provisions of the UN Charter and the obligations of the Final Act on Security and Cooperation in Europe, the High Contracting Parties shall respect each other′s territorial integrity and reaffirm the inviolability of the borders existing between them.»[10][4][11]

The Treaty document stipulates in Article 40 that the Treaty is entered into for a period of 10 years and renews automatically unless one of the parties notifies the other of its intention to curtail the Treaty.[8]


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/w...eferendum.html

https://www.cfr.org/interview/why-cr...m-illegitimate

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43167697
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      12-11-2018, 11:04 AM   #144
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Quote:
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....
Exactly. I dont even understand how this is a discussion.
Virtually the whole democatic world expressed their disapproval about the russian invasion and annexation of crimea. Yet 2 forummember here dont grasp the concept of whats right and wrong considered in the world.
IF russia wants Crimea back there's only one right way, and thats a diplomatic way. That means dismanteling the previous accorded treaty to each mutual consent with regard to what measures to take (payment, tax rights, infrastructure etc; mind you, Crimea doesn't border Russia (there's a bridge I think), so its dependant on Ukraine in certain ways to a certain extent (power, gas, oil pipelines etc), so mutual agreements have to be made on that too).
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      12-11-2018, 11:12 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
....
Exactly. I dont even understand how this is a discussion.
Virtually the whole democatic world expressed their disapproval about the russian invasion and annexation of crimea. Yet 2 forummember here dont grasp the concept of whats right and wrong considered in the world.
IF russia wants Crimea back there's only one right way, and thats a diplomatic way. That means dismanteling the previous accorded treaty to each mutual consent with regard to what measures to take (payment, tax rights, infrastructure etc; mind you, Crimea doesn't border Russia (there's a bridge I think), so its dependant on Ukraine in certain ways to a certain extent (power, gas, oil pipelines etc), so mutual agreements have to be made on that too).
Highlighted what's important from your post.

Work on that.

Cheers
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      12-11-2018, 11:26 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Those people from eastern europe arent illegal immigrants.
Its more the situation that for instance someone from kansas or oklahoma is going to work in california or texas. These are all US citizens like the polish and bulgarians, lituaians, estonians etc are EU citizens.
Thank you for the info.

In the States people don't work in Cali and send the money back to Kansas. I mean maybe a tiny tiny tiny few. People move from Kansas to California permanently. I'm guessing this happens much less because of the EU.

The only real time people cross boarders into other state is when they live on the border and the job is in the state next to them. Like in northern MA we have some people from NH and vice versa. No one from NH is working in southern MA every day of the week. No one from NH is working in NY or the few that do have very well paying jobs that pay for an apartment in NY and then they travel back on Friday to spend Fri/Sat/Sun at home and trek back Monday morning via plane.

Like in MA we don't have a bunch of people from Ohio working here because the pay is better. Also, you have to pay MA state income tax(which is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Ohio) and then your property tax back in your own state plus the federal tax. So there is not a big incentive to cross state lines for work. Let alone to cross country for work unless you want to permanently move to that state. This sound vastly different to what you are explaining is happening in the EU and France specifically.

I agree France leaving would have been better than Britain for the EU.
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      12-11-2018, 11:26 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
....
Exactly. I dont even understand how this is a discussion.
Virtually the whole democatic world expressed their disapproval about the russian invasion and annexation of crimea. Yet 2 forummember here dont grasp the concept of whats right and wrong considered in the world.
IF russia wants Crimea back there's only one right way, and thats a diplomatic way. That means dismanteling the previous accorded treaty to each mutual consent with regard to what measures to take (payment, tax rights, infrastructure etc; mind you, Crimea doesn't border Russia (there's a bridge I think), so its dependant on Ukraine in certain ways to a certain extent (power, gas, oil pipelines etc), so mutual agreements have to be made on that too).
Highlighted what's important from your post.

Work on that.

Cheers
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
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      12-11-2018, 12:05 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
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      12-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.
Did you like North Koreas bold move against South Korea in 1950?
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      12-11-2018, 12:25 PM   #150
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      12-11-2018, 12:37 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Did you like North Koreas bold move against South Korea in 1950?
Did south korea give away their nukes and sign a treaty only to get fucked over by not having them as a deterrent a few years later? Because otherwise it sounds like you are trying to make up a false equivalency.
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      12-11-2018, 12:49 PM   #152
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Did south korea give away their nukes and sign a treaty only to get fucked over by not having them as a deterrent a few years later? Because otherwise it sounds like you are trying to make up a false equivalency.
Nope. Your calling Russia bold for making a highly illegal move against Ukraine. I asked if you liked the equally bold move N. Korea made against S. Korea. No diplomacy, just a blatant land grab.

I don't like the word "bold" so much as I prefer "bully" when it comes to Putin and Russia.
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      12-11-2018, 12:50 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Did you like North Koreas bold move against South Korea in 1950?
Did south korea give away their nukes and sign a treaty only to get fucked over by not having them as a deterrent a few years later? Because otherwise it sounds like you are trying to make up a false equivalency.
Everything in this thread is false equivalency.

Without understanding each country and peoples history, culture, and motivations, one situation cannot be compared to another.

That's why global politics is a fallacy. Imagine having guys like the ones above telling a Chinese town how it should be governed... yet they think theirs is the only and right view.

It's funny to debate though.
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      12-11-2018, 12:51 PM   #154
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Why do you support the Russian annexation of Crimea?
I think the whole Crimea thing is very interesting. In no way do I support it:

Ukraine had signed a treaty with the United States, Russia and Britain to give up the nuclear weapons that it inherited as an independent country following the breakup of the Soviet Union. In exchange, the US and Russia were to refrain from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

However, the treaty did not prevent Russia from using force against Ukraine later. The western powers did nothing to stop Russia from annexing Crimea.

The move to annex Crimea was a bold move and made Russia look strong and Ukraine's allies and the west and EU, in my opinion, weak.


Let this be a warning to other countries and people: This is what happens when you give up your weapons and means to fight back. The world is not a nice place, the country with the larger army will invade and their boots will be on your neck.
So Ukraine was going to nuke Russia over Crimea if they hadn't given up their weapons?
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