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      03-14-2019, 10:04 AM   #23
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You'd at least want a pre-purchase inspection (PPI)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
I have a 718 Boxster and I love it, everytime I drive it, it puts a smile on my face. Plus the 2014 has the sweet flat six, and that mixed with the top down is pure heaven. If you've never had a Porsche and you can get the opportunity to buy one, I'd totally recommend it, just make sure you can get a good warranty, because of the placement of the engine, and the amount of labor for these cars, and the sheer number of parts, everything costs a pretty penny.
Or a certified, pre-owned car. Complete service records would be a big plus.

You can get a temporary membership from the Porsche Club of America to look through their classifieds, in addition to Auto Trader, et al. Club members usually have very-well maintained cars, though they often have a somewhat unrealistic price as compared to the market, maybe 10-15% high.
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      03-14-2019, 10:16 AM   #24
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I'm reminded of this Bob Lutz quote on BMW, "Toxic to the original owner base"

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Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
Worldwide, the single best selling Porsche these days is the in-line 4-cylinder Macan (about 40% of all Macan variants in the US and supposedly higher elsewhere). Macan sales account for more volume than the 911, Cayman and Boxster put together. Their top selling models now all have 4 doors and accounted for over 75% of sales in 2018. Their biggest single market is now China.]
I think you can throw in the Panamera, and still have more suburban activity vehicles sold than cars. It just shows you how much larger the buyer pool is for SAVs than sports cars.

As for the 4 cylinder Macan, IIRC, it was developed for the markets where displacement is heavily penalized if you go over 2L. It turns out it's been popular elsewhere, for non-enthusiasts interested in the badge, but not the performance core to the brand.

On to the 2016 Lutz quote:

Dear Bob, Do you think BMW is going the way of the bean counters nowadays with the introduction [not in the U.S.] of the front-wheel-drive 2-series and soon-to-be-released 1-series?–Rafael Akopyan Havana, Cuba

Lutz: BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. It has gone mainstream, which, from a shareholder's perspective, has been a good move. The brand is greatly respected, and BMW earned that respect. Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. Taut ride, superb handling, sharp steering, and symphonic-quality engine sound have mostly fallen by the wayside; today's BMW customer neither notices nor cares. Front-wheel drive, minivans, small pickups—all toxic to the original owner base—are possible and will/would sell just fine.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...bob-lutz-july/
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      03-15-2019, 08:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RvR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
Worldwide, the single best selling Porsche these days is the in-line 4-cylinder Macan (about 40% of all Macan variants in the US and supposedly higher elsewhere). Macan sales account for more volume than the 911, Cayman and Boxster put together. Their top selling models now all have 4 doors and accounted for over 75% of sales in 2018. Their biggest single market is now China.]
I think you can throw in the Panamera, and still have more suburban activity vehicles sold than cars. It just shows you how much larger the buyer pool is for SAVs than sports cars.

As for the 4 cylinder Macan, IIRC, it was developed for the markets where displacement is heavily penalized if you go over 2L. It turns out it's been popular elsewhere, for non-enthusiasts interested in the badge, but not the performance core to the brand.

On to the 2016 Lutz quote:

Dear Bob, Do you think BMW is going the way of the bean counters nowadays with the introduction [not in the U.S.] of the front-wheel-drive 2-series and soon-to-be-released 1-series?–Rafael Akopyan Havana, Cuba

Lutz: BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. It has gone mainstream, which, from a shareholder's perspective, has been a good move. The brand is greatly respected, and BMW earned that respect. Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. Taut ride, superb handling, sharp steering, and symphonic-quality engine sound have mostly fallen by the wayside; today's BMW customer neither notices nor cares. Front-wheel drive, minivans, small pickups—all toxic to the original owner base—are possible and will/would sell just fine.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...bob-lutz-july/
Isn't this what M cars are for or at least M performance cars?

You want BMW to satisfy only the enthusiasts and go burst?
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      03-15-2019, 12:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
Isn't this what M cars are for or at least M performance cars?

You want BMW to satisfy only the enthusiasts and go burst?
I can't speak for Bob. In a later R&T question he did say the 2 series and M5 are their bright spots in the lineup.

The enthusiasts should get what they want in M cars and M Performance cars, I agree; that's the target customer. If it is a BMW car, and has an "M" somewhere in the name, it should drive with all the traditional virtues the BMW enthusiasts want, and be very competitive in driving experience with the rest of their peers. For BMWs without an M, and the SAVs, those don't interest me, so I won't comment there. Those are for market forces to decide.

Back to the enthusiast M and M Performance cars, I can say the 2 series needs much better steering feedback (and from what I read, the M4 needs it, too.) I've driven an M2 (not an M2C) and my M240i, and I would rate their steering feel notably inferior to a Mk VII GTI or Golf R. That should not be the case with a BMW car with an "M" in its name.

Electric Power Assisted Steering is harder to get right than hydraulic, but Porsche and their supplier have managed to a point it's a non-issue, and even VW does a respectable job. What I don't know about BMW, is it a conscious choice (marketing?), or something they can't quite get right?

I did go so far as to talk to one of the Rahal-Letterman crew running the M8 in IMSA. After my explaining the lack of feel, he said, "On electric assist, I don't know what to tell you, we run hydraulic on the M8 race car."

Then there are a few other things BMW cars with an "M" shouldn't have, unswitchable Active Sound Design comes to the top of the list.
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      03-15-2019, 01:34 PM   #27
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I wonder when was the last time Bob Lutz drove a car?
BMW has increased its sales but, AFAIK, the number of 'enthusiast' cars that it sells has not diminished much, especially compared to other makers. Yes, everyone complains about the steering, and yes, VW, of which Porsche is a very minor subsidiary that uses mostly VW parts and designs, makes a better electric box. But no one claims that any VW product at or below the $50K price point outperforms the comparable BMW. They have nothing that comes close to the 2 unless you move up to 50% more in cost.
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      03-15-2019, 02:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RvR View Post
I've driven an M2 (not an M2C) and my M240i, and I would rate their steering feel notably inferior to a Mk VII GTI or Golf R. That should not be the case with a BMW car with an "M" in its name.
I'm not sure how much time you have spent driving the Golf R, but I've put 50,000km on our 2016 Mk7 on stock 19" wheels and Contisport 5 tyres and 22,000km on our 2017 M240i with stock 18" wheels and Michelin PSS tyres. The M240i has much better steering precision and equivalent feel and weight, the R is more vague at the limit but still better than other cars I've driven with electric steering assist. The way I find to drive the BMW is with the smaller muscles in the wrist by pushing up on the steering wheel than pulling down, then I get plenty of feedback.

The harder you push the M240i, the better the steering gets if you hold the wheel lightly, the harder you push the R, the more the understeer mutes the steering feedback, although it does come into it's element on a wet track when traction limits are lower and adjustment of the Haldex via VCDS to "increased traction" has been done.
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      03-15-2019, 02:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morphomeman View Post
I wonder when was the last time Bob Lutz drove a car?
BMW has increased its sales but, AFAIK, the number of 'enthusiast' cars that it sells has not diminished much, especially compared to other makers. Yes, everyone complains about the steering, and yes, VW, of which Porsche is a very minor subsidiary that uses mostly VW parts and designs, makes a better electric box.
Porsche just moved to common platform architecture with the 992 and Panamera; the 9x1 and 718 series are still their own designs. The SAVs used Audi shells, obviously. The Germans (most Europeans) all use the same big supplier base.
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      03-15-2019, 02:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
I'm not sure how much time you have spent driving the Golf R, but I've put 50,000km on our 2016 Mk7 on stock 19" wheels and Contisport 5 tyres and 22,000km on our 2017 M240i with stock 18" wheels and Michelin PSS tyres. The M240i has much better steering precision and equivalent feel and weight, the R is more vague at the limit but still better than other cars I've driven with electric steering assist. The way I find to drive the BMW is with the smaller muscles in the wrist by pushing up on the steering wheel than pulling down, then I get plenty of feedback.

The harder you push the M240i, the better the steering gets if you hold the wheel lightly, the harder you push the R, the more the understeer mutes the steering feedback, although it does come into it's element on a wet track when traction limits are lower and adjustment of the Haldex via VCDS to "increased traction" has been done.
Wow! That's the most intelligent post I've read on this forum regarding steering feel.

Most posts on the subject don't distinguish between the feedback at small steering angles and low g (self-centering and the sensation through the wheel of minor road irregularities pulling the car to the side a bit) and feedback at high g near the traction limit that tells you through the wheel how much the front wheels are sliding.

I suspect that the posters who claim the steering of the 2 is numb are talking about low g feedback, and I agree with that. They seem to miss the feedback at high g, possibly possibly because they don't actually drive it to the traction limit, or if they do they are hanging on to the wheel so tightly they can't feel the feedback.
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      03-15-2019, 02:52 PM   #31
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Thumbs up Excellent comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
I'm not sure how much time you have spent driving the Golf R, but I've put 50,000km on our 2016 Mk7 on stock 19" wheels and Contisport 5 tyres and 22,000km on our 2017 M240i with stock 18" wheels and Michelin PSS tyres. The M240i has much better steering precision and equivalent feel and weight, the R is more vague at the limit but still better than other cars I've driven with electric steering assist. The way I find to drive the BMW is with the smaller muscles in the wrist by pushing up on the steering wheel than pulling down, then I get plenty of feedback.

The harder you push the M240i, the better the steering gets if you hold the wheel lightly, the harder you push the R, the more the understeer mutes the steering feedback, although it does come into it's element on a wet track when traction limits are lower and adjustment of the Haldex via VCDS to "increased traction" has been done.
Most interesting, thanks for the expert comparo. You have more seat time in those cars (especially the R) than I do. I will give your wrist technique a tryout.
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      03-15-2019, 03:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertw View Post
Wow! That's the most intelligent post I've read on this forum regarding steering feel.

Most posts on the subject don't distinguish between the feedback at small steering angles and low g (self-centering and the sensation through the wheel of minor road irregularities pulling the car to the side a bit) and feedback at high g near the traction limit that tells you through the wheel how much the front wheels are sliding.

I suspect that the posters who claim the steering of the 2 is numb are talking about low g feedback, and I agree with that. They seem to miss the feedback at high g, possibly possibly because they don't actually drive it to the traction limit, or if they do they are hanging on to the wheel so tightly they can't feel the feedback.
Somewhere there must be a vocabulary to describe all this stuff, as it's a complex topic.

The M240i is better at higher speeds, yes; I liked the M2 better, but at the time the M2 was very hard to get for test drives (or even purchases.) I already had my car by the time I could find an M2 to drive.

One of the things I've noticed about the VW EPAS, it doesn't tell you as much about understeer, or snow/ice. You can tell from the chassis that it's loaded up and going to plow, but that doesn't come back through the wheel -- I think it just applies some more assist, instead of ramping up the steering wheel effort needed to tell you about the understeer.

Great discussion, guys.

On, to the original poster, no, I don't think you'd regret a 981 Porsche, so long as you were comfortable with the Porsche's space layout and extra costs. The BMW has strong all-around appeal, but as a specialty drive, the Porsche is sublime.
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      03-16-2019, 11:37 AM   #33
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VW is doing a great job of getting folks to drink the Koolaid.
The Macan is not built on an Audi shell, it is built on a VW shell that is shared across the company. Nothing nefarious there, it's just that the basic design is not specific to the more prestigious brands. BMW does the same with Mini and the lower numbered models, though Mini has a bit of a halo itself.
Bentley and RR also use plenty of parts from the parent-company bin. They could not be profitable otherwise.
Now the Bugatti, that is another story.
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      03-16-2019, 12:39 PM   #34
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The only manufacturer these days that says they won’t produce an SUV, has a dealer network and engineers all their own key components, is McLaren.
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      03-16-2019, 01:59 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
The way I find to drive the BMW is with the smaller muscles in the wrist by pushing up on the steering wheel than pulling down, then I get plenty of feedback.
Now there's a subject that almost never gets raised.

It reminds me of sitting in the passenger chair while a pro racer/coach drove my E36 race car. He placed his fingertips and the pads of his thumbs on the wheel, telling me that way he could feel what the tires were doing much better. I learned a lot about how to use a steering wheel from that racer.
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      03-18-2019, 01:33 PM   #36
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I've not driven the 981, but picked up a manual CPO 718 Cayman S in January. Absolutely loving the car in weekend duties.

Drove a base 718 with PDK awhile back and thought the handling was fantastic (no PASM or PTV on 20" wheels) and the engine was sluggish right off the line, but at around 2000 rpm the torque kicked in hard, similar to what you feel in the M240i.

The 718 Cayman S with PTV and PASM is a beast in the twisties and simply hard to describe what the car is capable of.

I can't comment on the 981, but you absolutely will not regret purchasing a 718 (an S even better if you can swing it).
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      03-28-2019, 11:20 AM   #37
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      04-01-2019, 03:53 PM   #38
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My 2 cents on this, I have a 228i which I love to death and have put dinan springs and a jb+ tune in and think it handles and drives great. My dad has a 2014 boxster he let's me drive when I'm home from school and it might just be the 6 cylinder compared to my 4 but it is just an absolute blast to drive and just feels and sounds amazing. The boxster isn't that fast when you're staring at the speedometer but when actually driving it just feels faster and sportier and just more fun. There are very few cars I would rather drive on a backroad.

I think the 2 is a little more understated and practical but if you don't care about either of those things then I think switching over is totally reasonable. I would say the 6 cylinder is worth it instead of a newer 718 but I don't have much experience with the 718 and am sure it is fantastic as well.

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      06-08-2019, 02:52 AM   #39
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Little late to the chat but I have not driven my M235i yet but owned a 15 Boxster GTS with PDK about a year ago. At the time I also had a Jag Ftype with the V8 so when I first drove the GTS I was less than thrilled. After several Topgear style trips where me and my son would chase each other through canyons and swap cars back and forth, I came to love the GTS and be amazed at what it was. It was just so expensive! Only had to spend money on maintenance like once a year so the cost of owning was not bad for me. The more I drove it the more I loved it. Had to sell both toys as the new house was over budget. Now I think the M235i will be the "Goldilocks" car for me...just right and a great bargain used. I also owned a 911 and that was a great car too but that GTS was just magical. The PDK was telepathic. the only thing i didnt like was the exhaust note at low RPM shifts. Sounded just like a big guy passing gas to me. High revs were great in sport+ mode. The Jag pipes were intoxicating! To me its getting what you can when you can. If you always wanted a Porsche, then get one when you can. I will probably never have 2 sports cars like that ever again and I am so glad I did it as me and my son had soooo much fun chasing each other!
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      06-08-2019, 01:04 PM   #40
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I had a 2013 981 Boxster with pdk. Fantastic car and a real head turner if you like the attention. It felt very expensive more so than all the BMW's I've had. That being said, the flat six is an iconic engine to be experienced but the non S model was sort of gutless around town until you really hammered it. It has legs though on the freeway and pulls really well. Also, my first service for the car was eye popping and didn't even require and oil change. I do remember $111 for wipers which I said no way.

In terms of suspension, the car is so exact that many describe it as "surgical" and I can say that it would do whatever I throw at it easily and seemed to asked for more. To me, the handling of these cars is where it will always be next level.

Good luck with your decision.
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      06-22-2019, 04:34 PM   #41
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I had a 2014 911 manual, a 2014 Cayman S PDK, and now an M235i. I loved them all. They're all amazing in different ways.

The Cayman felt so light and agile and incredibly fast so long as you kept the rpm's high. The flat-6 makes race-car sounds when pushed hard, something the M235's I6 or any turbo engine just can't do. At the limit in hard corners, this is a tricky car. It understeers massively at first, then gives way to a wonky 4-wheel drift. You definitely need to learn a mid-engine car to get the best out of it. One you do though, it just flows through corners. I did not care for the limited visibility, tight confines, very loud & stiff highway ride, or the exorbitant maintenance costs. Everything was literally double over BMW for no good reason. PDK was awesome, ripping off shifts in an instant and adding to the excitement. I was a fan.

The 911 was a true go-kart, as funny as that sounds. It might be heavier than the Cayman but, still feels very light and tossable. The engine makes great noises, the manual was fun but, I love PDK. It just gets more performance out of these cars. The engine in the rear requires really learning the car as it will oversteer massively if not careful. But, when you get it all right, WOW! I loved this car. Visibility and interior space were excellent. It was actually rather usable and practical too. Fuel economy was decent and ride was much quieter than the Cayman. Ultimately got rid of it as maintenance costs were nuts! $6000 for a clutch?!

And that brings me to the lovable M235i. Great engine sound, even if not as good as the Porsches. Pretty darn good handling, though honestly its a bit pogo-stick bouncy and nowhere near as well resolved as the Porsche suspension. Excellent ride quality, much better than the Porsches. Fantastic torque and acceleration, every bit as exciting here as either Porsche. Great visibility, interior space, practicality and comfort too, though actually more road noise than the 911 on the highway. Way less than the Cayman though. I truly love driving this M235i every bit as much as those cars 95% of the time, except when at the absolute limit. That said, the Porsches were waaaaay more beautiful to my eyes. But, this car is so much cheaper to maintain and has also been far more reliable with my Porsches having annoying electrical issues common to all VW/Audi group cars. And, I do feel this angry, short little BMW has a ton of personality.

My wishlist for the next generation 2-series coupe: even more aggressive engine noise, much less highway/tire noise, less bouncy suspension (more real travel), much bigger wheels that look less tucked in, more steering and braking feel, stock lsd, a dual clutch setup, and much better looking rear end design (the front is quite nice already).
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      06-24-2019, 08:07 AM   #42
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Will you regret it? Is the Pope Catholic? My ownership experience of 5 previous Porsches was far below that of my 4 previous BMWs and my current M3. I'll never go back to Porsche for a variety of reasons too lengthy to discuss here. This has nothing to do with performance and more to do with "living" with the cars over a period of time.
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      06-25-2019, 12:02 AM   #43
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A friend of mine let me take his 991.2 GT3 around the track for 3 laps.... I can tell you those were the best 3 laps of my life....

my life will never be the same again.....
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