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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics Wheels and Tires -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack 18" RFT to 19" non-RFT, ride comfort/handling/noise?

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      07-23-2019, 06:27 PM   #1
grocerylist
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18" RFT to 19" non-RFT, ride comfort/handling/noise?

Sorry in advance for the long post. I've tried some searching , hopefully this isn't a

Has anyone gone from the stock 18" RFT to a staggered 19" performance summer tire?

How was the ride? Better, similar or worse?

I'm trying to figure out if I should stick with 18" in a staggered setup or jump to 19".

On my last car (G37S sedan) I had forged 19" RAYS and lowered on coilovers and the ride wasn't that different from the 18" stock S suspension.

Other than the bodyroll in the M235i the stock adaptive suspension with RFT feels maybe a little firmer. (I can't really tell much difference ride wise in Comfort vs Sport/+). I'm not sure if that's due to the suspension or because of the crappy RFTs.

Part of me thinks staying 18" for lighter wheels and cheaper summer tires. This car would get very little track time. But the 19" would look better, however if 19" summer tires would ride more firm than the current 18" RFT then that would also have me go towards 18".

I'm looking at a few different wheels. BBS (CH-R or CI-R) or Apex ARC-8 or VMR (V710FF 19", V810 18"). Obviously it's a big range in price difference between BBS vs Apex or VRM and I could swing it if it's a drastic difference in quality/strength/weight. I'm not too familiar with Apex. VRM though I've read some not so good reviews in regards to both durability and fit/finish. Apex flow form wheels appear to be a couple pounds lighter than similar VRM offerings. I almost see the Apex/VRM wheels as disposable and I wouldn't be killing myself if I got a little curb rash.

Can anyone give me some tips on the ride quality 18" RFT vs 18" non-RFT vs 19" non-RFT both comfort wise and handling wise? As well as help me decide to go high-end flow form vs budget flow form?

I previously had forged wheels but there was a cheap option via the 370z stock wheels. I'm not wanting to shell out $4000+ for a set of forged wheels at the moment. Should cast wheels (non flow formed) entirely be ignored? Are flow formed wheels generally safe for the track or does that depend on the brand?

I'm also trying to figure out offsets and what fits without rubbing. Trying to keep stock height for now but may lower slightly in the future. Considering 235 or 245 front would be nice and 255-265 in the rear.

Appreciate any help!

Last edited by grocerylist; 07-23-2019 at 06:33 PM.. Reason: word
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      07-27-2019, 08:37 PM   #2
Maynard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
.......Part of me thinks staying 18" for lighter wheels and cheaper summer tires. .....
^^^This, for sure. non-RFT will significantly improve ride and road-feel. I did this (on 18" staggered), from factory Conti5 RFTs to Conti ExtremeSports; Now on Bridgestones s007. I haven't run 19's, but most reports are that it is a bit harsher ride, heavier (so you notice the bumps), and more prone to blowouts over potholes or other impact. And I think cast wheels are OK if they come rom a reputable maker, but they won't be the lightest. I'm on OZ sthat are cast/rotary forged and they came highly recommended as better than factory.
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      07-28-2019, 10:24 AM   #3
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Great advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
^^^This, for sure. non-RFT will significantly improve ride and road-feel. I did this (on 18" staggered), from factory Conti5 RFTs to Conti ExtremeSports; Now on Bridgestones s007. I haven't run 19's, but most reports are that it is a bit harsher ride, heavier (so you notice the bumps), and more prone to blowouts over potholes or other impact. And I think cast wheels are OK if they come rom a reputable maker, but they won't be the lightest. I'm on OZ sthat are cast/rotary forged and they came highly recommended as better than factory.
Great advice. The 19s may (according to one's preference) look better. Likely inferior in most other dimensions including cost, ride, noise, durability.

I love OZ wheels and have had several sets. Sadly, just bent one of my newest OZs (see bent wheel thread in the forum).
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      07-28-2019, 01:20 PM   #4
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Yes, I imagine anything will bend if you hit it right. Last trip to the track garage I was checking out a set of bent wheels off a Lambo - probably worth more than my car was when new. Apparently the rumble strips in the bus stop really will do some damage if you try to hit them at a buck-ten.
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      07-28-2019, 10:26 PM   #5
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Thanks for the tips guys. Sounds like 18" is the way to go for both ride and performance.

I'm leaning towards Apex ARC-8. I slightly prefer the look of the Apex EC-7 but the ARC-8 are about ~2.5lbs lighter per wheel vs the EC-7, the look isn't that different to me and I think I like the Hyper Black (I think that best matches the stock side mirror covers?) and might not notice them getting filthy from brake dust like the hyper silver.

I really don't want to run spacers. I'm currently stock height.
Apex recommends the following staggered setup:

Front: 18x8.5" ET35 or ET38 with 225/40-18 tires
Rear: 18x9.5" ET58 with 255/35-18 tires

Now to wait and see maybe if there might be some black friday sales or a group buy pop up sometime soon.
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      07-29-2019, 12:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Yes, I imagine anything will bend if you hit it right. Last trip to the track garage I was checking out a set of bent wheels off a Lambo - probably worth more than my car was when new. Apparently the rumble strips in the bus stop really will do some damage if you try to hit them at a buck-ten.
The Lambo story is interesting as I suspect those were real forged wheels and not "rotary forged" cast wheels like my OZs.

I put the OZ wheels on my new 2020 M240i with < 10 miles on the odometer. Noticed the small bend somewhere around 300 miles. I am the only driver and don't remember hitting anything (e.g., pothole, rumble strip). Since I was still in the break in phase, I was driving very conservatively.
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      08-15-2019, 04:11 PM   #7
sethwas
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Are you looking for appearance change or feel from behind the wheel change?

From a performance standpoint there are too many variables to be able to give you an objective answer that says one is better than the other. After all, just changing from RFT to non RFT of the identical size using the same rim will give you a boost in traction, treadwear, and noise abatement.

Maybe if I rephrased the question for you: pick a specific tire you have in mind, and then say is it better to use this specific tire on 18's all around, or on 19's all around or on 19's staggered.

Then we can answer your question with a question - what you mean by 'better'?

(personally - I wouldn't stagger on a street car, especially one where you want to rotate tires, but that's just me in my particular use case)

Seth
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      08-15-2019, 07:38 PM   #8
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(personally - I wouldn't stagger on a street car, especially one where you want to rotate tires, but that's just me in my particular use case)

Seth[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!
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      08-19-2019, 01:10 PM   #9
grocerylist
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Originally I was considering 19s (thinking summer tires on 19s might not be any worse of a ride than 18" RFTs) but since then I've decided to stay with 18s because the only real benefit for 19s IMO is appearance. 18s are slightly cheaper (wheels and tires), less NVH, and lighter basically = better performance. However I want to go as wide as possible without any risk of rubbing and don't want to have to roll the front fenders.

I'm looking for a more confident behind the wheel feel because under decent throttle the stock RFT just don't grip and I get lots of traction control trying to counteract that. I plan to replace the stock RFT for Michelin PS4S which obviously will offer more traction.

Better to me equals the best traction (dry/wet grip, stopping). But at the same time I'm not going to run Cup2 tires nor would I run an all-season or winter tire.

Treadwear isn't very important to me as I don't drive that much, probably average no more than 5k miles/year, so rotating tires isn't a concern for me. My previous car I ran 2.3 degrees of neg camber and my PSS tires had 2 years of use and I imagine I could have gotten another 2 years out of them.

I considered going with a square setup (for a more balanced less understeering car) but I'd prefer a 255-265 in back as opposed to the square 225-245 setup that I already find insufficient, though I realize part of the problem is the terrible RFTs.

Apex currently has a group buy deal on their forged wheels (Arc8 & EC7) with up to $400 off the set and free shipping that's pretty tempting. https://www.gangup.com/apex/apex-18-...w-q3-2019.html
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      08-20-2019, 02:44 PM   #10
sethwas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
Better to me equals the best traction (dry/wet grip, stopping). But at the same time I'm not going to run Cup2 tires nor would I run an all-season or winter tire.
Since you said you don't want to do cup2, I'm going to skip the ultra max high performance summer. These typically have a crappy ride, are noisy, they tramline, and are basically a track tire that are still street legal. Grippy as all get out, but not really useful for 95% of driving.

Sticking to the highest performance level of all season that's available and a slightly lower performance summer tire leaves you with lots of choices because their traction levels are similar now.

Newer generation all seasons outperform older generation summers so that has turned into a distinction without difference. For example the Michelin Pilot A/S is supposed to be excellent. Although it should be as it's practically twice the cost of its competitors. see:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=241
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=235

I know lots of people (just googling the bimmer post forums for the M3 sections and general E90 sections) recommend the conti DWS but they have lighter steering feel compared to the michelin's in the same category. To some that is a perk as it makes the car easier when cruising (whereas the michelin's have a harder ride) so makes more sense for most people wanting a very high quality tire that works in temps under 70 degrees. Of course that soft feel means the tire falls all over itself in hard driving and is not recommended for track use. If you get the non all season version of this tire its a solid solid choice (below).

Lots of others have success with the BF Goodrich comp2 as it also outperforms many A/S in that category and performs higher than the DWS.
The Kumho Ecsta is supposed to perform very similarly to the Michelin but not last nearly as long. Of course it doesn't cost nearly as much.
I haven't driven the Nitto NT555 but they also are supposed to be up there like the Michelin's when new, but when they wear not so much and their wet traction isn't supposed to be as great. Probably why its a summer tire...
General Gmax - what I personally have, more traction than I know what to do with and amazing in the wet. Feel from the wheel is better too, but louder than an A/S or touring tire which is not what I wanted, but it's a high performance summer and noise isn't their priority. It doesn't work at all in cold weather, snow or not, but that's not something that happens here. I wanted a european tire brand for a european car. Sounds silly but it made sense to me (general is continental's budget brand)
Toyo Proxes - solid competitor to the conti DWS
Hankook Ventus Evo2 - these are the secret sauce for many people. You don't get brand whore street cred like you would with Michelin's but they are amazing for what they cost. Not much wet traction relatively speaking. Outgunned by many but those all cost much more.
Continental Extreme contact - higher performing than the Hankook with a higher price naturally. These are probably a good starting place for you when avoiding RFT and not going to Michelin.
Pirelli P zero - quiet but wear fast and wet traction not as good as others. (seeing a commonality here?)
Bridgestone Potenza S-04 - the only tire really worth mentioning in the line. It's amazing, and a step under the continental extremes. The other Potenza's aren't really street friendly as they are cup2 territory.
Yokohama - I wanted the Avid GT as it's supposed to have hands down amazing wet traction but it was a very expensive tire. It's focused more on luxury than absolute max so instead you would look at the Advan in that category, but the BF Goodrich outperforms it.
Dunlop has the Signature but it's an older design.
Did I miss any?


If you're in a place with crappy roads (either poor surface materials, or sand/dirt/wet leaves), then you'll still get the traction control to trigger when you drive aggressively. Better tires won't help there.

If you live in the sunbelt states you could get away with a summer tire, I live in the tropics so dry traction is pointless to focus on, it's only wet traction that matters.

It doesn't sound like this car is a daily driver. So you can stick to the staggered setup if you like the feel of it. I can't comment on width because I'm a fan of a square setup with tires that aren't too wide to keep the car playful - just offset them a bit for appearance if need be. Wider tires change the feel removing some 'lithe' ness to the setup. But if that hunkered/heavy feel is for you go for it.

From what I saw, high performance tires really are so close in capability that its more important to focus on noise and comfort as there really aren't any opportunities on the street to take advantage the on-paper traction benefits. Assuming you spend a lot of time in the car of course. If cost is no object go for the gold, but I don't think there's value in that and would rather get 90% of the benefits for 50% of the cost.

Seth
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      08-20-2019, 06:25 PM   #11
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Thanks for the very detailed tire option response, I appreciate the info.

I'm in Seattle where the temperatures year round are pretty mild. It's damp 6-7 months of the year and bone dry the other 5-6 months. Outside of a 2 week freak snow last year it very rarely snows and the temperatures usually are above 40 in Winter.

Everything I've read and videos indicated to me that ultra performance summer tires offer the best wet or dry traction and handling. All Season tires, while getting better, are still a compromise between winter and summer tires and while they are passable for mild winter weather and acceptable in the summer, they just don't have as much wet or dry traction compared to a ultra summer tire. I think the only people that should be AS tires is someone that can't justify 2 sets of wheels/tires but regularly needs to drive in sub 40 weather. Basically if you don't get regular sub 40 weather, there's no reason to even consider an AS tires as you're only losing wet and dry grip with no benefit. If you regularly see sub 40 weather, it'd be better to have a second set of dedicated winter wheels/tires, though I know not everyone wants to or can do that. My previous car had Michelin PSS and never had any problems throughout the year.

When I replace these silly skinny stock 18x7.5 wheels, I'll likely store them for if/when I sell the car someday or maybe if we get another silly 2 weeks of snow I could slap some winter tires on.

My M235i is my daily driver but I work from home. I'm pretty set on the Michelin PS4S though I've also heard good things about the Conti Sport Contact 6 or the Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport (if they ever sell it in the US).

This purpose of this post has evolved a bit. Originally I was contemplating wider 19s after noticing how bad the Pirelli RFTs are and was wondering if ultra summer tires would ride with any more comfortable or about equal to the 18" RFTs. Since then after considering the slightly lower cost of wheels and tires in 18 and basically realizing that 19s don't offer any advantage, other than looks, so I think 18 is the way to go.

Now I'm trying to figure out the optimum offset to fit wider wheels and rubber without having to use spacers, roll the front fenders, trimming the rear fender liner or shock dust boot. I've basically decided to go with Apex ARC-8 or EC-7 and as I posted above they recommend the following:

Front: 18x8.5" ET35 or ET38 with 225/40-18 tires
Rear: 18x9.5" ET58 with 255/35-18 tires
Direct fit.
Popular fitment.
235/40-18 front tires can also be used, but we strongly suggest dialing in front negative camber to prevent rubbing. Amount of camber varies depending on tire brand and ride height.
265/35-18 rear tires may also be used, but may require 3mm or larger spacers, or trimming fender liner and shock dust boot.

I also plan on doing the Dinan springs with bumpstops and the M3/M4 LCA and possibly, which would add .5 degrees of camber but I don't know if that'd be enough to fit a 235/35 up front. I had adjustable camber arms on my previous car but I'm not sure I want to do something like that with this car.

I see some fitting 265 in back with no suspension changes then I read of others that were rubbing and I don't want to spend a few thousand bucks and not have things fit. I also don't want to further change the dynamics of the car... whereas BMW had a staggered setup with 225F and 245R. Going to a 225F or 235F and 255R or 265R would seem to add even more understeer characteristics.
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      08-22-2019, 11:39 AM   #12
sethwas
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Totally understood- the Michelins are a solid choice. They basically set the bar. After them I'd choose the conti's. The difference below the Michelin's just boils down to preference.

You're spot on with the 18 v 19 inch argument. As for widths and offsets that's probably for a separate thread to see what works for others (in terms of clearances/looks/stance and potential damage). There won't be any performance difference.

I took a look at the calendar for average temps by you (ignoring rain and snow) and there are really only 2 months you could safely use a summer tire, July and August. Jan Feb March April are too cold, June and Sept you are on the fence (since average means some days will still be too cold), then October November and December are too cold again.
Even if you don't drive on the summer tires, when you aren't using them you can't even store them in low temps, they need to stay warm/pliable (per the manufacturer). Preferably in the living room, in front of the fireplace, ideally on the couch.

If you don't mind swapping out your tires, and you never have true snow, just colder temps than the summers can handle, you can put the all season version of your Michelin for the 'winter' months and then swap for summers for your 8 weeks of 'summer'.
(I chuckle where I see places that have summers below 90 degrees )

Now mathematically/financially most people put their 'winters' on their stock wheels. Especially when it snows since smaller rim and narrower rubber is a performance boost in the slush. But since your 'winter' is most of the year, you will want to have your sexy wheels year round, and you can either mount/unmount on the same set, or have two sets of rims $$$

I only say this because to me it seems counter intuitive to get a summer tire because it grips the best, only to use it in months where the temperature they operate in actively removes all the grip I paid for. That and the tires will tear themselves apart in cold temps as they turn to plastic in their "glass transition."

If it was my money, since you aren't concerned with noise or ride, I'd get the grippiest cost no object tire that fits the nicest 18" rim of the width that I like - which still works in sub 40 degree weather (which is only 4 weeks away) -and see how I like it.
If the performance is still lacking, then when it warms up again next June move to a dedicated summer tire.

Seth
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      08-22-2019, 12:41 PM   #13
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I've been driving solely on summer tires for the past 4-5 years and know others that also do the same. Maybe I'm incorrect about ideal temps for summer tires but I understood that they were fine so long as temps were above 40? I've not experienced tire chipping or hockey puck tires that slip though I do drive more careful when it approaches the low 40s. If temps get into the 30s I don't typically drive. What temps are you saying is ideal for summer tires?

I'm originally from Texas so I'm no stranger to 90-100 degree swamp humidity weather but I abandoned that region, the semi-annual floodings, roaches, mosquitos, etc. Now I complain when it gets in the upper 70s
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      08-22-2019, 09:02 PM   #14
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I love that you complain in the upper 70's that sounds amazing

see: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...82862-5448.pdf
just as an example (for michelin anyway)
https://michelinmedia.com/pages/blog...rticle/c/a575/
also
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=220

They note the tires can't even get to 20 degrees. Even when not on the car. That just flat out damages the tire and it won't bounce back when it warms up. Certainly if you tried to drive on it it risks disintegration.
So while you certainly 'can' drive on a summer tire at 40 degrees, just know it's not going to give you as much traction as it would when warmer.

I never lived in a climate with mild weather, only extremes. So when in New England and Canada it was all seasons in summer and dedicated winters in winter (it was also later changed to the law). I can tell you the cold weather messing with rubber not designed to work in cold weather is no joke. It's like ice skating with a seat belt on. (Now in Florida it's dealing with tires that are wet all the time).

I mean, just to be realistic, the tires don't suddenly not work at 40 degrees. They gradually lose traction (actually pliability) as the temperature decreases. Once they hit 40 they are flat out unsafe. But that doesn't mean at 41 degrees you are getting full grip again.

Each tire is different (brand, compound etc.) but the safe rule of thumb is that below 55/60 degrees you aren't getting full traction anymore. Usable? Sure, and you could drive year round, but definitely with less grip than in warmer temps.

I was asking myself, why would I put a tire on my car that loses grip in the conditions that I drive if my goal was to get the tire with the most grip in the conditions that I drive.

The million dollar question is, does an ultra high performance all season tire working in its peak operating rage outperform a similar category summer tire that is not working in its peak performance range.
That I don't have an answer to

Seth
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      08-24-2019, 04:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
I've been driving solely on summer tires for the past 4-5 years and know others that also do the same. Maybe I'm incorrect about ideal temps for summer tires but I understood that they were fine so long as temps were above 40? I've not experienced tire chipping or hockey puck tires that slip though I do drive more careful when it approaches the low 40s. If temps get into the 30s I don't typically drive. What temps are you saying is ideal for summer tires?

I'm originally from Texas so I'm no stranger to 90-100 degree swamp humidity weather but I abandoned that region, the semi-annual floodings, roaches, mosquitos, etc. Now I complain when it gets in the upper 70s
I grew up in Houston and have lived in other cities in TX. Family and lots of friends still there. I specifically moved to the Seattle area after having lived in various places (San Antonio, DC, Boston, Tampa, LA) to get out of the heat. We complained about the heat over July 4th when it hit 75 in the afternoon.
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      08-24-2019, 04:01 PM   #16
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I have two sets or PS4 tires for my M240i: one set on 17x8 wheels and one set on 18x8. They are excellent tires in both the dry and wet. Like them much better than the PSS I have normally run in the summer.
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      08-26-2019, 09:38 AM   #17
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not to totally derail but this is funny and very apropos of this discussion:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-season-tires/
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      11-17-2019, 02:34 PM   #18
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Question Staggered to non-staggered. Non-Rft. Possible?

2016/228i. Like to change oem non-rft equal size on all 4 tires. Problems with my idea? No track days. Staid retired driver.
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      11-18-2019, 06:56 PM   #19
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certainly possible - just get 4 identical rims and matching tires and you're all set.
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