[gosi]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

A

So what is this horrible inertial weight? 😂

Seriously though some of you make it sound like the xdrive handles worse than a Lada, or at least that’s how I read it. Of course xdrive makes sense in this car and it doesn’t take away from what the car is. It’s a different setup for different people and purposes.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by bmw1010

Just curious - for you guys who have purchased the RWD MT, if you were gonna get an automatic, would you still opt for RWD over AWD?

I sort of qualify, as I really wanted to buy a RWD MT, but in late '17 there wasn't an MT within 1000 miles to test drive. (I intensely dislike using the clutch to drag revs up or down to match the next gear. There was no other way to shift gears quickly in a 323i I bought without a test drive. I got rid of it much too early solely because of this issue, and wasn't willing to buy another MT BMW without a test drive.)

I am very happy with my RWD AT. In manual mode I am just as engaged with managing the engine as I would be with an MT. I do miss working the clutch and throttle to match revs perfectly, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. More importantly, I like to induce a bit of oversteer now and then when conditions are perfect. The rest of the twisty road driving experience is great, but those are the moments I live for and remember. Sure, you can cause oversteer in some AWD cars, and even some FWD cars that don't push the front too badly (eg Civic Type R) but those techniques seem unnatural to me and I don't think I would enjoy them anywhere near as much as I do in my RWD.

A test drive is pretty well useless regarding showing you how the car behaves in spirited driving, unless you find an unusual sales agent and you have good roads nearby. So I disagree with the many posts that say you need to test drive both to find out what you prefer. A careful reading of threads like this one and every magazine road test I could find were more useful to me than the test drive.

That said, my test drive did convince me that the AT in the 240 is excellent compared to the ones in the cars I cross shopped - a bit nicer than the Audi RS3 and much better than the one in the Mercedes C43AMG. (I test drove the Audi and Merc mainly to be thorough. I probably wasn't going to give up the fun of RWD - the Merc is available in Canada only in AWD - to get a better daily driver than the C5 Z06 I had at the time.)

[H2O_Doc]

It's funny how discussions about a drivetrain can actually have little to do with mechanics and a lot to do with personal identity.

[Throttlesteer14]

Wait until the "Its not a real "M" car discussions start back up.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

It's funny how discussions about a drivetrain can actually have little to do with mechanics and a lot to do with personal identity.

Same applies when it comes to the M2 vs. M240i threads hah

The most fun threads on BMW forums are those when it is less about the car, and more about the *idea* of said car!

EDIT: Jalopnik threads are a goldmine for this kind of troll-fest

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Wait until the "Its not a real "M" car discussions start back up.

Oh that can of worms haha the infamous "No True M Car" angle. Yeah, I love those.

[cooolone2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Wait until the "Its not a real "M" car discussions start back up.

Hahahaha... How many pages did that thread go? I was laughing so much, and some take it way too seriously! Lmao, just amazing!

[Maynard]

Personally, I find the 228 ix with AT to be the perfect way to undercompensate for my large penis. It helps balance out my life so my ego doesn't run amok.

[PDM5]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Personally, I find the 228 ix with AT to be the perfect way to undercompensate for my large penis. It helps balance out my life so my ego doesn't run amok.

Chuckled out loud to that one. Thanks for that!

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by albertw

I am very happy with my RWD AT. In manual mode I am just as engaged with managing the engine as I would be with an MT. I do miss working the clutch and throttle to match revs perfectly, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. More importantly, I like to induce a bit of oversteer now and then when conditions are perfect. The rest of the twisty road driving experience is great, but those are the moments I live for and remember. Sure, you can cause oversteer in some AWD cars, and even some FWD cars that don't push the front too badly (eg Civic Type R) but those techniques seem unnatural to me and I don't think I would enjoy them anywhere near as much as I do in my RWD.

Not only are they unnatural feeling to some of us, getting a FWD (and to a lesser extent AWD) vehicle to oversteer requires far more commitment coming in to the corner. Whereas power oversteer in a RWD car requires commitment coming out of the corner. Sightlines are far better exiting a corner than entering and your general margin of error is much higher exiting, rather than entering corners. Go in too fast into a corner and there's not much you can do. Go out too fast out of a corner and just lift if you're not going to make it.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by Moflow

getting a FWD (and to a lesser extent AWD) vehicle to oversteer requires far more commitment coming in to the corner.

I take it you haven't driven a 240 w/xdrive. (I suspect that's the problem with the majority of xdrive bashing; people who have never truly pushed a vehicle equipped with xdrive. And I don't mean what you did on a test drive on public roads with the sales agent sitting beside you; I mean truly pushed).

I've had no problem inducing oversteer with throttle application coming out of corners in my M240xi. My Prelude (FWD) on the other-hand wouldn't oversteer even with application of the handbrake in a snowy parking lot.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by harma24

I've had no problem inducing oversteer with throttle application coming out of corners in my M240xi.

A few people have posted that oversteer is possible with AWD, but you are the first I remember to state explicitly that it can be done while accelerating out of a corner. In contrast, many others have raved about how planted the AWD feels while accelerating hard out of corners.

Having a car feel really well planted while accelerating out of a corner is exactly what I do not want in a fun car for the street. That's the main reason I stuck with RWD, but I am curious about whether I made a mistake, as AWD would be useful to me a few times a year.

I had assumed that oversteer with AWD involved brake and steering inputs while entering a corner, which doesn't interest me for the reasons given by Moflow. Perhaps you could describe in more detail what you do to induce oversteer while accelerating out of a corner.

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by albertw

I had assumed that oversteer with AWD involved brake and steering inputs while entering a corner, which doesn't interest me for the reasons given by Moflow. Perhaps you could describe in more detail what you do to induce oversteer while accelerating out of a corner.

Scandinavian Flick.

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by harma24

I take it you haven't driven a 240 w/xdrive. (I suspect that's the problem with the majority of xdrive bashing; people who have never truly pushed a vehicle equipped with xdrive. And I don't mean what you did on a test drive on public roads with the sales agent sitting beside you; I mean truly pushed).

I've had no problem inducing oversteer with throttle application coming out of corners in my M240xi. My Prelude (FWD) on the other-hand wouldn't oversteer even with application of the handbrake in a snowy parking lot.

Glad I'm not alone. This is my feeling as well. On track I can get into oversteer and can throttle steer in sweepers, but it seems less dramatic that rwd used to feel (but about 30 years between the comparisons). On public fun roads it behaves like it is in a balanced four wheel drift, without having to get to terminal velocity.

[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

Hey OP,



There was a thread recently where 2-er drivers were going out of there way, trying really really hard, to prove how "RwD iS juSt aS g0od as Awd in tHe Sn0w". Such bullshit. This thread was 5 pages long or something with mental gymnastics and logic leaps. If you live anywhere you get rainy snowy weather you will be thankful that you have AWD (paired with the right tires of course), and you can still have fun. Put the top down in light (very light!) snow and then tell me

Anyway, get the AWD AT convertible and enjoy it all year round! Eat up RWD/MT traditionalists on every stop light with no mercy.

I have lived in Moscow, and parts of Ukraine.

I spent the last 20 years living in Michigan. I have also traveled for work to some snowy areas as well. Needless to say, Ive lived and driven regularly through a LOT of snow.

Every time I hear someone try to make the "RWD with snow tires" argument, my eyes glaze over.

The odd thing is, its only done for cars. Ive never seen anyone say that a truck with RWD and snow tires, or a JEEP with RWD and snow tires, has any advantage.

its always some odd thinking that is strictly isolated to sedans and coupes.

If you've lived with snow, you know there is no substitute to real AWD or 4x4. Even with AWD or 4x4, most vehicles STILL need a dedicated snow tire set.

Ive driven Audi's AWD, BMWs, Subaru's..so I can honestly say that I have tried the "best out there". Ive also gotten loaner RWD BMWs and Audis.

Ive also driven 100's of other vehicles, working in the automotive industry and frequently traveling.

There is zero situations where a RWD with snow tires will be comparable to AWD with snow tires.

Matter of factly, I will take my Silverado on regular tires, in 4x4, over a RWD with snow tires, 11/10 times.

[aerobod]

I 've driven 500,000km or so in winter conditions in Canada and 80% of that has been with RWD and winter tyres. We currently have an AWD Golf R as well as the M240i for winter use. I take the M240i out in the snow more than the Golf R, as I just prefer driving it. I've never been restricted in being able to take the RWD drive cars out in the snow, plenty of good snow days into the Rockies. One of the best drives I ever had was on the snow covered access road to Kicking Horse resort in a Z4M, roof down with skis in the passenger seat, tail out on the bends with snow roosters being thrown in the air - utilising a good set of winter tyres to their limit.

AWD is just unnecessary for on-road use, but I can understand why many like it due to the sense of security it gives.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by aerobod

AWD is just unnecessary for on-road use, but I can understand why many like it due to the sense of security it gives.

In Northern New England I liked my snow-tire equipped Tundra's 4WD when initiating movement while stopped on ice or on an extremely slippery surface, especially when the truck was on a manageable incline. I thought that was by far 4WD's most useful application.

That was just for daily driving, though. During winter car-control clinics conducted on ice and snow, strategically switching back and forth between RWD and 4WD made for faster lap times without any reduction in security.

On a couple of occasions over 20 years in NNE, I couldn't get up my driveway with the Tundra, and that was with a ½ cord of hardwood over the rear axle. I had an alternative place to park, so that wasn't a problem; instead, the problem was having to walk through the kind of stuff that the truck couldn't even handle.

[Throttlesteer14]

It's not just about snow. An AWD car will provide better traction in standing water, regardless of the type of tires on the car. I've witnessed this both on the road, as well as in autocross and track day applications. Where RWD cars have to modulate the throttle with feather-like inputs through corners, lesser AWD cars can charge with much more confidence.

As stated several times, it's all preference. I do find it interesting that a few folks have mentioned that they can only justify AWD a few times a year or on the rare occasion it snows. Yet their normal everyday driving consists of inducing oversteer and drifting around corners. I guess my street driving is pretty old, boring, and controlled.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by dradernh

In Northern New England I liked my snow-tire equipped Tundra's 4WD when initiating movement while stopped on ice or on an extremely slippery surface, especially when the truck was on a manageable incline. I thought that was by far 4WD's most useful application.

That was just for daily driving, though. During winter car-control clinics conducted on ice and snow, strategically switching back and forth between RWD and 4WD made for faster lap times without any reduction in security.

On a couple of occasions over 20 years in NNE, I couldn't get up my driveway with the Tundra, and that was with a ½ cord of hardwood over the rear axle. I had an alternative place to park, so that wasn't a problem; instead, the problem was having to walk through the kind of stuff that the truck couldn't even handle.

In Canada, the majority of vehicles are still 2WD with most on winter tyres during the winter. On-road if the conditions are really bad, everyone has to wait for the transport trucks or buses that are stuck until the ploughs and sanders arrive, even if their vehicles have AWD. If one lives on a track off paved roads I can see the advantage of 4WD and AWD then, but assuming there is enough ground clearance, people here will just have studded tyres on their FWD or RWD vehicles if they need to tackle steeper hills, to avoid the vehicle sliding down when stopped, if it is too icy.

[msej449]

It is possible to drift in an AWD - I've done it a few times on public roads, by mistake. Usually on a wet roundabout, when applying power too early in the turn, before leaving. It's fairly undramatic - the car will just drift uniformly front and back, outwards towards the edge of the roundabout. Correction is just a matter of taking your foot off the gas. All fine, of course, as long as it's not a dual-lane roundabout and there's another car next to you, or you compensate too late and run out of tarmac. A salutary lesson in not becoming complacent that AWD would always compensate for my own lack of attention.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by AleksanderSuave

I have lived in Moscow, and parts of Ukraine.

I spent the last 20 years living in Michigan. I have also traveled for work to some snowy areas as well. Needless to say, Ive lived and driven regularly through a LOT of snow.

Every time I hear someone try to make the "RWD with snow tires" argument, my eyes glaze over.

The odd thing is, its only done for cars. Ive never seen anyone say that a truck with RWD and snow tires, or a JEEP with RWD and snow tires, has any advantage.

its always some odd thinking that is strictly isolated to sedans and coupes.

If you've lived with snow, you know there is no substitute to real AWD or 4x4. Even with AWD or 4x4, most vehicles STILL need a dedicated snow tire set.

Ive driven Audi's AWD, BMWs, Subaru's..so I can honestly say that I have tried the "best out there". Ive also gotten loaner RWD BMWs and Audis.

Ive also driven 100's of other vehicles, working in the automotive industry and frequently traveling.

There is zero situations where a RWD with snow tires will be comparable to AWD with snow tires.

Matter of factly, I will take my Silverado on regular tires, in 4x4, over a RWD with snow tires, 11/10 times.

This is why I sometimes despise the internet. Otherwise reasonable people turn batshit delusional on Internet forums. Like the responses you will get to your post which will go like:

"Well, AKKSHUALLY, I drive in RWD with snow tires all the time. It is jUsT aS g0oD aS AWD". Such concentrated bullshit.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

This is why I sometimes despise the internet. Otherwise reasonable people turn batshit delusional on Internet forums. Like the responses you will get to your post which will go like:

"Well, AKKSHUALLY, I drive in RWD with snow tires all the time. It is jUsT aS g0oD aS AWD". Such concentrated bullshit.

There seems to be some comprehension issues going on here:
"RWD just as good as AWD" (assuming traction being the only measurement, which is not necessarily the case) is not equal to "AWD is not needed, RWD is adequate"

RWD is just fine in winter with the right tyres for on-road conditions, AWD will give more traction with the same tyres for acceleration, but doesn't help you stop better. AWD also can mask poor traction with loss of some feeling through the steering, leading to over confidence, one of the reasons I prefer our RWD M240i to our AWD Golf R (both with winter tyres), as you can feel the traction through the steering a lot better on icy surfaces.

It is always interesting on snow days when heading to the mountains that many over confident AWD vehicle drivers end up in the ditch (sometimes on their side or roof) because they could get going well, but misjudged the lack of traction before sliding rapidly into the ditch, with the 2WD drivers tending to be a lot more cautious as they know they have less traction.

Bottom line is RWD is fine for winter use as is FWD or AWD. AWD is good if you want to get going a bit faster, but doesn't give advantage in stopping or traction feedback. Around here it wasn't that long ago that the cops all used RWD Crown Victorias until they went out of production, they had no problems in winter conditions, especially as you can get snow most months of the year in the Canadian Rockies.