[Skyracer]

Originally Posted by msej449

On a scale of 1-10 with the Elise/Caterham/track car at 10 I'd say yes, the M235i/M240i is 5 but I'd only rate the Porsche Carerra S4 I had at 7 and an M I tried at 6.5 So it always makes me smile when people criticise the M-Lite steering: yes, it's not terrific and not as good as an M or Porsche etc. but it's fine for a sporty road car.

You're being generous with the m240i. Subjectivity again, but on a scale of 1 to 10 for feel (with 10 as the best) I would rate it a 1 or 2. Sure, it's accurate and direct, but it has absolutely no feel whatsoever IMO, and is ridiculously light, utterly appalling and completely unfit for a sporty road car. Like steering a video game.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Skyracer

You're being generous with the m240i. Subjectivity again, but on a scale of 1 to 10 for feel (with 10 as the best) I would rate it a 1 or 2. Sure, it's accurate and direct, but it has absolutely no feel whatsoever IMO, and is ridiculously light, utterly appalling and completely unfit for a sporty road car. Like steering a video game.

In my opinion, msej449's opinion is very accurate. I have a Caterham R400 (one of the hardcore versions that will keep up with supercars on the track, but is still road legal). It has no steering, brake or traction control assistance and is as archetypal of 'telepathic' steering of any car I have ever driven, especially with the tactile feel of the 260mm quick release Momo steering wheel, definitely rates a 10/10. Of the other BMWs I have had over the years I would rate the M240i as decent:

E46 323Ci - 7
E85 Z4M - 7
E90 325i (with sport package) - 5
E82 135i - 6
M240i - 5

I wouldn't rate any recent pickup truck I have driven above a 2 and typical SUVs I have rented lately such as the Nissan Rogue, Mitsubishi Outlander or Chevy Yukon all rate either 1 or 2. I have a special place for the worst steering on any vehicle I have ever driven that is from this century - 0 for the PT cruiser, the antithesis of the Caterham steering.

Perhaps in non-sport mode the steering on the M240i is quite light, but in sport mode it has decent weight (similar to the Caterham when at highway speeds). Lightness also doesn't correlate to feel. One problem with feel that was brought to my attention some years ago by ex-Formula 1 driver Allen Berg when I attended one of his race schools is that most people steer by pulling down on the steering with their arm muscles and therefore have little feeling for what the wheels are really doing, whereas they should be pushing up the wheel with their wrist muscles and that with steering that is too heavy you lose a lot of feel due to not being able to use the wrist muscles effectively. Also that the shoulders should never move on the seat when steering and that there should be about a 90 degree bend in the elbow with the hands at 3-9 position on the steering wheel. I find the M240i steering has decent feel when steering with this method.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Skyracer

You're being generous with the m240i. Subjectivity again, but on a scale of 1 to 10 for feel (with 10 as the best) I would rate it a 1 or 2. Sure, it's accurate and direct, but it has absolutely no feel whatsoever IMO, and is ridiculously light, utterly appalling and completely unfit for a sporty road car. Like steering a video game.

Hmmm....maybe something changed on the M240? My M235's steering in the Sport mode isn't light at all, though to me, the Comfort steering feels the most natural. I wish there was a setting for Comfort steering and Sport shocks.

I've been driving since the late 1980s. I've owned a lot of cars including many sporty ones with manual and hydraulic racks. In terms of overall accuracy and feel, my M235 is near the top, a couple notches below the winner which was my old 1990 CRX Si (manual rack with wider rims and summer tires). I routinely drive my friend's heavily modded NB Miata and that steering is pretty dang amazing and is the best I've felt, but I've never hopped back in my M235 and thought "Where did all the feel go?!?!". On a scale of 1-10, I'd rank my friend's Miata a 10, the CRX Si a 9, and my M235 a 7.

I rent TONS of cars (some luxury and sporty too including Benz, Camaros, and Stangs), SUVs, and trucks for work. I've yet to find a car with as good electric assist steering as my M235.

I do wonder about this whole "feel" thing. Are you wanting the wheel to pull, move, and dart out of your hands on pavement changes and impacts like a manual or some hydraulic racks do? Is that what feel is to you? Just curious.

[rainfall]

how different is the 240i steering vs 235i?

I own a 235i and don't notice the dead zone all that much.

The only thing i really miss is the road feedback. I had cars with hydraulic steering and one with no power assist at all.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I do wonder about this whole "feel" thing. Are you wanting the wheel to pull, move, and dart out of your hands on pavement changes and impacts like a manual or some hydraulic racks do? Is that what feel is to you? Just curious.

That would not be 'feel' as such, but bump steer due to non-optimal placement of the steering rack and/or incorrect track rod ends length. Typically due to the track rod ends not staying parallel with the bottom suspension wishbone/link during suspension movement. This can happen with any steering rack type, whether it is non-assisted, hydraulically assisted or electrically assisted. Bump steer actually does a good job of masking much of the steering feel.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by aerobod

That would not be 'feel' as such, but bump steer due to non-optimal placement of the steering rack and/or incorrect track rod ends length. Typically due to the track rod ends not staying parallel with the bottom suspension wishbone/link during suspension movement. This can happen with any steering rack type, whether it is non-assisted, hydraulically assisted or electrically assisted. Bump steer actually does a good job of masking much of the steering feel.

I do have to wonder if that's what some people consider "feel", especially in cars with non-optimal setups or less insulated/isolated chassis.

[DistantTea]

I'll worry about the lack of road feel just as soon as the dealership fixes the deadzone wiggle.

Ideally a car like this should have enough communication through the steering so that you can tell what the tires, wheels, and suspension are up to but not so much feel that you have a that track car exhaustion just trying to drive to the grocery store. A car that feels ALIVE on the highway is horrible thing.

[Skyracer]

^^^ X marks the spot. Although I would clarify the last remark to say you wouldn't want a daily driver or commuter car to feel too "alive" on the highway, but that would not be a problem with a fun or weekend car.

LOL on the post equating bump steer and steering feedback. Of course there can be too much feedback, but I am talking about a happy medium, between the "too much" extreme of an incorrectly engineered or incorrectly set up car, and the numb extreme of the m240xi. A good example of a car near the border of the happy medium and "too much" extreme is any model Lotus Exige or Elise of the last 20 years, my personal benchmark for optimal steering feel and feedback (although realistically attaining such a feel these days isn't going to happen, as cars are all too heavy and they all have power steering). The steering on those cars does indeed writhe in your hands over imperfections and bumps, perhaps on the border of too much at times, but I'll take that over numb EPAS any day. At least you know what the tires are doing and you quickly develop the intuition as to when to let the car do its thing and when to correct, whereas with most EPAS you have to guess what's going on at the front wheels.

The "dead zone" referred to by DistantTea is a separate issue although I suspect it is related to the same cause. It also bothers me intensely.

[MarkDemma]

Wanted to throw this out there:

"Some say" that replacing the LCA (lower control arm) makes a vast improvement to the steering. Has anyone done this and care to comment?

To the folks comparing to E46s - when I move mine to a new parking spot every once in a while ... it feels like going from power steering to non powered steering. Guess I've "gotten soft" with the electric.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by DistantTea

A car that feels ALIVE on the highway is horrible thing.

Originally Posted by Skyracer

Although I would clarify the last remark to say you wouldn't want a daily driver or commuter car to feel too "alive" on the highway...

...The "dead zone" referred to by DistantTea is a separate issue although I suspect it is related to the same cause. It also bothers me intensely.

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

Wanted to throw this out there: "Some say" that replacing the LCA (lower control arm) makes a vast improvement to the steering. Has anyone done this and care to comment?

Respectfully but strongly disagree with the "alive" comments. The LCA swap I did was intended to accomplish bringing such life to the steering and eliminate the dead on-center zone, and it did just that to my great delight. Single best mod I've done. The car can almost read my mind...think about the next lane, and I'm on the way over...the car feels like an extension of me, rather than a separate entity. Love it for daily driving!

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Skyracer

LOL on the post equating bump steer and steering feedback. Of course there can be too much feedback, but I am talking about a happy medium, between the "too much" extreme of an incorrectly engineered or incorrectly set up car, and the numb extreme of the m240xi. A good example of a car near the border of the happy medium and "too much" extreme is any model Lotus Exige or Elise of the last 20 years,

A stock Lotus Elise/Exige has very little bump steer, the front suspension design is fundamentally based on the Lotus 7, which the modern derivative is the Caterham 7. The unequal length double wishbone with coilover / damper unit set at about 45 degrees and parallel steering rack track rods is a proven design that Colin Chapman and his engineers perfected.

Correct rack height shimming removes bump steer completely (as is the case in my Caterham). With no bump steer, the steering can also be alive due to other feedback mechanisms in both a positive and negative way, tramlining being the other big 'negative' steering feedback that masks what the contact patch is really doing due to available grip.

Well specified castor, SAI, scrub radius, front/rear roll centre coupling and anti-dive inner wishbone mount heights combined with the right bushing stiffnesses have the most positive input into good steering feel. In the case of the Lotus/Caterham geometry lots of feedback to the smallest contact patch changes is provided that makes the cars 'nervous' in a straight line, but has nothing to do with bump steer.

In terms of my M240i (I can't comment on the M240xi as I haven't driven one, or any variability between cars due to damaged suspension or manufacturing tolerances), the steering feel is good with no noticeable bump steer, moderate tramlining with the stock MPSS tyres and decent feel at the limit when the front end starts to lose grip, again, all felt by applying the principle of steering using the wrist muscles as opposed to pulling the wheel down with the stronger arm muscles. The steering feedback is there, it just has to be felt.

[Miata13]

Originally Posted by Skyracer

Michelin PSS. Replaced the OEM Pirellis at about 1/2 tread life (car will be returned with those at end of lease). Didn't find any real improvement in the steering with the PSS, unfortunately.

Definitely a good strategy on a leased vehicle...did the same on our former F31...saved the 1/2 worn run flats and re-mounted them at lease turn in to save extra cost of new RF tires. I'd however spec a 2 series with the Track Package so to avoid the RF's altogether.

[DistantTea]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Respectfully but strongly disagree with the "alive" comments. The LCA swap I did was intended to accomplish bringing such life to the steering and eliminate the dead on-center zone, and it did just that to my great delight. Single best mod I've done. The car can almost read my mind...think about the next lane, and I'm on the way over...the car feels like an extension of me, rather than a separate entity. Love it for daily driving!

Can you give more details about your LCA swap? I'm not opposed to such things.

[Skyracer]

Originally Posted by aerobod

A stock Lotus Elise/Exige has very little bump steer...In terms of my M240i (I can't comment on the M240xi as I haven't driven one, or any variability between cars due to damaged suspension or manufacturing tolerances), the steering feel is good with no noticeable bump steer, moderate tramlining with the stock MPSS tyres and decent feel at the limit when the front end starts to lose grip, again, all felt by applying the principle of steering using the wrist muscles as opposed to pulling the wheel down with the stronger arm muscles. The steering feedback is there, it just has to be felt.

Thanks for the advice on driving techniques, always welcome.

However, we'll just have to agree to disagree with your assertion that the problem with the m240xi is with the driver and not with the car. Putting aside the completely subjective aspects of steering, which have been appropriately raised in this thread, there's more than a whiff of 'blame the customer' in your comments. Don't like the steering on this particular car? That's because you've been using the steering wheel incorrectly all these years! Sorry, not buying it...
Even if it's true, I know what I like and I like what I know.

BTW not sure why the Lotus comments re: bump steer appear to be directed at me; I never said it was an issue with Lotus cars.

[Skyracer]

Originally Posted by Miata13

I'd however spec a 2 series with the Track Package so to avoid the RF's altogether.

Must be a US thing. No such package in Canada, although you are now able to individually order various wheel/tire combos for the m240xi, with or without RF's, which is certainly welcome!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by DistantTea

Can you give more details about your LCA swap? I'm not opposed to such things.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

I learned about this from others before me who did this mod and reported very good results. My BMW dealer did the install, although my great SA was concerned the car would be "darty", perhaps the worry referenced above. But...it is not at all...just wonderfully responsive. From the first turn out of the service department, I loved it. Alignment was set at +1 degree of negative camber, otherwise to spec. This also makes the car feel more stable in turns with more engaged contact patch area.

Unfortunately, I believe it is not compatible with XDrive.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Skyracer

Thanks for the advice on driving techniques, always welcome.

However, we'll just have to agree to disagree with your assertion that the problem with the m240xi is with the driver and not with the car. Putting aside the completely subjective aspects of steering, which have been appropriately raised in this thread, there's more than a whiff of 'blame the customer' in your comments. Don't like the steering on this particular car? That's because you've been using the steering wheel incorrectly all these years! Sorry, not buying it...
Even if it's true, I know what I like and I like what I know.

BTW not sure why the Lotus comments re: bump steer appear to be directed at me; I never said it was an issue with Lotus cars.

Always glad to be of assistance.

The Lotus comment you made seemed to imply the steering was alive due to bump steer amongst other feedback, I was just discussing why this isn't the case, sorry if I read your comment incorrectly.

Obviously different people drive in different ways and obviously from the comments here many people find the feedback in the M240i is very good, in my case I find it decent, having a reference in the best steering on a road car to compare it with from my Caterham. It is rather difficult to find feedback in steering where non exists, so there either must be a difference between cars, or the forces are too subtle for some to feel.

No issue of 'blame the customer', different people have different experiences, but the 'blame the manufacturer' odour from your comments doesn't seem to align with the majority of people's experience. Sometimes best to cut your losses and ditch a product when it doesn't meet your needs.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Always glad to be of assistance.

The Lotus comment you made seemed to imply the steering was alive due to bump steer amongst other feedback, I was just discussing why this isn't the case, sorry if I read your comment incorrectly.

Obviously different people drive in different ways and obviously from the comments here many people find the feedback in the M240i is very good, in my case I find it decent, having a reference in the best steering on a road car to compare it with from my Caterham. It is rather difficult to find feedback in steering where non exists, so there either must be a difference between cars, or the forces are too subtle for some to feel.

No issue of 'blame the customer', different people have different experiences, but the 'blame the manufacturer' odour from your comments doesn't seem to align with the majority of people's experience. Sometimes best to cut your losses and ditch a product when it doesn't meet your needs.

Seriously,

The steering feedback is fine; I've driven every variation of E and F series BMWs and can objectively say there is nothing missing from the old hydraulic units. It's actually an improvement, since EPS eliminates bump-steer, its response is precise and quicker to inputs. It's perfect for everyday street usage, with rough terrain, of which BMWs target demographics caters to.

All due respect, I believe some folks just nitpick reasons to bitch about phantom issues within normal operation of a product.

If the vehicle doesn't fit you needs; kick it out of bed and move on. But if it's not broken, then don't try to fix it.

[MetalMK]

Originally Posted by aerobod

In my opinion, msej449's opinion is very accurate. I have a Caterham R400 (one of the hardcore versions that will keep up with supercars on the track, but is still road legal). It has no steering, brake or traction control assistance and is as archetypal of 'telepathic' steering of any car I have ever driven, especially with the tactile feel of the 260mm quick release Momo steering wheel, definitely rates a 10/10. Of the other BMWs I have had over the years I would rate the M240i as decent:

E46 323Ci - 7
E85 Z4M - 7
E90 325i (with sport package) - 5
E82 135i - 6
M240i - 5

I wouldn't rate any recent pickup truck I have driven above a 2 and typical SUVs I have rented lately such as the Nissan Rogue, Mitsubishi Outlander or Chevy Yukon all rate either 1 or 2. I have a special place for the worst steering on any vehicle I have ever driven that is from this century - 0 for the PT cruiser, the antithesis of the Caterham steering.

Perhaps in non-sport mode the steering on the M240i is quite light, but in sport mode it has decent weight (similar to the Caterham when at highway speeds). Lightness also doesn't correlate to feel. One problem with feel that was brought to my attention some years ago by ex-Formula 1 driver Allen Berg when I attended one of his race schools is that most people steer by pulling down on the steering with their arm muscles and therefore have little feeling for what the wheels are really doing, whereas they should be pushing up the wheel with their wrist muscles and that with steering that is too heavy you lose a lot of feel due to not being able to use the wrist muscles effectively. Also that the shoulders should never move on the seat when steering and that there should be about a 90 degree bend in the elbow with the hands at 3-9 position on the steering wheel. I find the M240i steering has decent feel when steering with this method.

What would you rate the latest two generations of the BMW X5 (F15 and G05)? I am considering adding one of these to my garage. I have not driven any hardcore track cars before, so I would appreciate your opinion on them. Of course, I won't be taking them to the track or anything racing related because of their significant body roll, but a decent steering feel is what I am looking for.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by MetalMK

What would you rate the latest two generations of the BMW X5 (F15 and G05)? I am considering adding one of these to my garage. I have not driven any hardcore track cars before, so I would appreciate your opinion on them. Of course, I won't be taking them to the track or anything racing related because of their significant body roll, but a decent steering feel is what I am looking for.

I've never driven them, so I'm not able to give an objective rating,

Any SUV from a given manufacture with a car of equivalent power and suspension tuning will typically rate a notch lower due to the higher centre of gravity and higher weight, so by that logic the X5 would be a notch below a 5-series of equivalent specification, which generally is a notch below a 3-series. That train of thought would put the X5 at a 3 or so, but difficult to tell without driving it for a while.

[TINY BMW]

So I’m currently experiencing this:

Car goes straight. When I turn 1/8 left the car response immediately.

When I turn 1 inch to the right it’s like I’m turning into chewing gum.

It’s horrible. Especially on the freeway. Anybody experiencing this?

[babaikram]

The steering could feel very light in EcoPro but much better in Sport and Sport+ modes. You could customise your Sports mode to be only chassis when you don't want increase in the drivetrain response