[AleksanderSuave]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

This is why I sometimes despise the internet. Otherwise reasonable people turn batshit delusional on Internet forums. Like the responses you will get to your post which will go like:

"Well, AKKSHUALLY, I drive in RWD with snow tires all the time. It is jUsT aS g0oD aS AWD". Such concentrated bullshit.

On the internet you can find someone to disagree about everything

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by harma24

I take it you haven't driven a 240 w/xdrive. (I suspect that's the problem with the majority of xdrive bashing; people who have never truly pushed a vehicle equipped with xdrive. And I don't mean what you did on a test drive on public roads with the sales agent sitting beside you; I mean truly pushed).

I've had no problem inducing oversteer with throttle application coming out of corners in my M240xi. My Prelude (FWD) on the other-hand wouldn't oversteer even with application of the handbrake in a snowy parking lot.

I don't doubt that you can induce power oversteer in an M240xi. The only claim i'm making is that you'd be able to get that oversteer at lower speeds in a rear wheel drive car, all things being equal. That may be something you want, or it may be something you don't want. I'm not bashing any of these cars, they're all cool.

[aozer]

i had a 228ix and then switched to an m235i rwd. rwd just felt better. im sure the extra power of the 6 cylinder didnt hurt, but still preferred the rwd over the xdrive. the 228ix had noticeable oversteer when pushing the car in the corners.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by gosi

So what is this horrible inertial weight? 😂

Seriously though some of you make it sound like the xdrive handles worse than a Lada, or at least that’s how I read it. Of course xdrive makes sense in this car and it doesn’t take away from what the car is. It’s a different setup for different people and purposes.

The Xdrive has two additional drive axles, an extra draft shaft, an extra differential, and a transfer case full of fluid. The energy required spin the extra axles and differential and overcome the fluid losses of the transfer case sap power. It's why xdrives see about 2mph lower trap speeds in the 1/4 mile and get walked by RWDs from a 30mph and greater roll.

The xdrive isn't terrible and it doesn't make the 2 series handle terribly, but it does take away from the handling limits and feel. It also adds weight and in one of the worst places and types (inertial), it saps power, and adds complexity and cost.

There are very few situations where xdrive is beneficial. People buy a lot of xdrives in these cars because that is what dealers mostly stock and it makes them more money on the front end and on repairs. Buyers also get sold on the "performance and safety" of AWD. A lot of drivers think they're going to die when driving in the wet and snow if they don't have AWD. LOL. I piloted a 1994 Z28 on all seasons through the very hilly streets of Lawrence, KS during my college days for 3 years. I didn't get stuck. Same goes for all the RWD cop cars. They weren't running snow tires. Not until the last couple of years did most police departments start buying AWD/4WD cruisers. Prior, they were Chargers, Crown Vics, and Caprice Classics. All RWD V8 cars.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

There are very few situations where xdrive is beneficial. People buy a lot of xdrives in these cars because that is what dealers mostly stock and it makes them more money on the front end and on repairs. Buyers also get sold on the "performance and safety" of AWD. A lot of drivers think they're going to die when driving in the wet and snow if they don't have AWD. LOL. I piloted a 1994 Z28 on all seasons through the very hilly streets of Lawrence, KS during my college days for 3 years. I didn't get stuck. Same goes for all the RWD cop cars. They weren't running snow tires. Not until the last couple of years did most police departments start buying AWD/4WD cruisers. Prior, they were Chargers, Crown Vics, and Caprice Classics. All RWD V8 cars.

That's certainly been my experience and understanding of AWD vehicles. Excellent summary.

[Throttlesteer14]

People use their cars for different reasons with different circumstances. I don't worry about getting "walked" going to the grocery store. My trap speed isn't important when I head to work. What is important is, when we get a lot of standing water in the roads (often), I am in a better position to deal with it. When we hit freezing temps and there is spotty sheets of ice on the road, having an additional two drive wheels increases my changes of getting traction. If you live somewhere that doesn't have a substantial amount of snow, AWD and all-seasons are the way to go. It doesn't make sense to have snow tires for a handful of days out of the year.

What works in Kansas or Ohio may be very different than California and Oregon. Some may care about the extra 2mph traps and the feel of going hard into corners on the street. But some (like me) just want a fun daily driver and have another car for auto-x/track.

[PDM5]

Originally Posted by aerobod

There seems to be some comprehension issues going on here:
"RWD just as good as AWD" (assuming traction being the only measurement, which is not necessarily the case) is not equal to "AWD is not needed, RWD is adequate"

RWD is just fine in winter with the right tyres for on-road conditions, AWD will give more traction with the same tyres for acceleration, but doesn't help you stop better. AWD also can mask poor traction with loss of some feeling through the steering, leading to over confidence, one of the reasons I prefer our RWD M240i to our AWD Golf R (both with winter tyres), as you can feel the traction through the steering a lot better on icy surfaces.

It is always interesting on snow days when heading to the mountains that many over confident AWD vehicle drivers end up in the ditch (sometimes on their side or roof) because they could get going well, but misjudged the lack of traction before sliding rapidly into the ditch, with the 2WD drivers tending to be a lot more cautious as they know they have less traction.

Bottom line is RWD is fine for winter use as is FWD or AWD. AWD is good if you want to get going a bit faster, but doesn't give advantage in stopping or traction feedback. Around here it wasn't that long ago that the cops all used RWD Crown Victorias until they went out of production, they had no problems in winter conditions, especially as you can get snow most months of the year in the Canadian Rockies.

This^ I don't think anyone, even the people arguing for RWD+snow tires, is saying that RWD+snow tires beats AWD+snow tires in snow traction, grip, etc. It's just in our cars where ground clearance is going to be the biggest inhibiting factor, we both lose that war. A 4x4/AWD pickup truck with more ground clearance is going to win by default. A 4x4/AWD pickup truck plus snow tires and it's a slaughter. For our cars and their limitations, MOST people will get by just fine with a set of snow tires, regardless if they are RWD or AWD. It's not a matter of RWD>AWD. To dismiss other's stories as "bullshit" when for their situation it has worked out well for them for years is asinine. If someone feels the need to get AWD for that added safety/satisfaction, good for them.

Some have gone off the deep end while claiming others are the ones to have gone off the deep end. Bottom line get what car you think will suit your needs the most. You don't have to justify your purchasing decision to anyone but yourself.

[PDM5]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

People use their cars for different reasons with different circumstances. I don't worry about getting "walked" going to the grocery store. My trap speed isn't important when I head to work. What is important is, when we get a lot of standing water in the roads (often), I am in a better position to deal with it. When we hit freezing temps and there is spotty sheets of ice on the road, having an additional two drive wheels increases my changes of getting traction. If you live somewhere that doesn't have a substantial amount of snow, AWD and all-seasons are the way to go. It doesn't make sense to have snow tires for a handful of days out of the year.

What works in Kansas or Ohio may be very different than California and Oregon. Some may care about the extra 2mph traps and the feel of going hard into corners on the street. But some (like me) just want a fun daily driver and have another car for auto-x/track.

Very well said. Get what car works for you! You're the one who is driving it!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

...when we get a lot of standing water in the roads (often), [with AWD] I am in a better position to deal with it.

I've owned RWD, FWD, AWD, and 4WD over the past decade, and when it's come to standing water I've relied upon tread depth more than drive type to ensure my safety and that of my passengers. For that reason, I replace my tires when they reach 6/32nds, track tires excepted.

[cooolone2]

The 2wd vs Awd discussion is yawn worthy...

It (talking about it) won't change anyone's mind, and it's obvious that some are impervious to learning anything other than what they (think) they know.

Funniest and most interesting thing in the world is the Dunning Kruger Effect... And one study showed how those who had filed for bankruptcy protection from creditor', when questioned about their financial knowledge, would swear the "knew" what they were doing (didn't do wrong)...

O.o

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I've owned RWD, FWD, AWD, and 4WD over the past decade, and when it's come to standing water I've relied upon tread depth more than drive type to ensure my safety and that of my passengers. For that reason, I replace my tires when they reach 6/32nds, track tires excepted.

Agreed. Tires are key and that's why I run optimal tires for the conditions I'll be driving in. I've never once thought in my 30+ years of driving that I needed AWD in wet conditions. If anything, the wet only increased my 2012 WRX's disgusting tendency to go into heavy understeer.

I wouldn't be caught dead driving this car with all seasons in warm temps (60+), especially super narrow 225 square runflat setups that nearly every xdrive 2 series runs. The difference in handling, braking, and traction is astounding when you on put proper summer tires with some meaningful width (especially in the front).

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

The 2wd vs Awd discussion is yawn worthy...

It (talking about it) won't change anyone's mind, and it's obvious that some are impervious to learning anything other than what they (think) they know.

Funniest and most interesting thing in the world is the Dunning Kruger Effect... And one study showed how those who had filed for bankruptcy protection from creditor', when questioned about their financial knowledge, would swear the "knew" what they were doing (didn't do wrong)...

O.o

Oh don't be going about yawning and all that! This is prime internet drama marinated in all this BMW passion. Come on

Speaking of the Dunning Kruger effect, in my observation the degree of cognitive bias is often determined by how specific people get when they start throwing out anecdotes. You find it all peppered through this thread as well.

"Well back in my day I used to drive a bloody IROC Z28 on uncle Joe's rubbers, in ten feet of snow in Lawrence, KS!! All RWD I tell ya! Them BMW folks selling you xDrives so they have more parts to fix!!"

Of course I am poking fun at one of the above posters hah

The level of specificity can almost get poetic.

Anyway, *yawn* (you are right!)

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by PDM5

This^ I don't think anyone, even the people arguing for RWD+snow tires, is saying that RWD+snow tires beats AWD+snow tires in snow traction, grip, etc. It's just in our cars where ground clearance is going to be the biggest inhibiting factor, we both lose that war. A 4x4/AWD pickup truck with more ground clearance is going to win by default. A 4x4/AWD pickup truck plus snow tires and it's a slaughter. For our cars and their limitations, MOST people will get by just fine with a set of snow tires, regardless if they are RWD or AWD. It's not a matter of RWD>AWD. To dismiss other's stories as "bullshit" when for their situation it has worked out well for them for years is asinine. If someone feels the need to get AWD for that added safety/satisfaction, good for them.

Some have gone off the deep end while claiming others are the ones to have gone off the deep end. Bottom line get what car you think will suit your needs the most. You don't have to justify your purchasing decision to anyone but yourself.

I love your post. Bless your heart <3 I adore how you set up comparisons between various trucks versus our poor little 2-ers... and took them to slaughter

You ever watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Yours is some Charlie logic right there! It is so beautiful. And batshit crazy!

"Guyzzz, guyzzz!! Ground clearance! Since trucks have them, and our cars don't have them, 2-ers will suck ass AWD or not!!! See! RwD jUsT mIgHT aS w3ll be as G00d aS AwD!!"

I love this. Seems like this thread was the troll whistle for all of the ones in the previous threads to come pouring out defending the RWD honor with the same logic leaps haha

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

I love your post. Bless your heart <3 I adore how you set up comparisons between various trucks versus our poor little 2-ers... and took them to slaughter

You ever watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Yours is some Charlie logic right there! It is so beautiful. And batshit crazy!

"Guyzzz, guyzzz!! Ground clearance! Since trucks have them, and our cars don't have them, 2-ers will suck ass AWD or not!!! See! RwD jUsT mIgHT aS w3ll be as G00d aS AwD!!"

I love this. Seems like this thread was the troll whistle for all of the ones in the previous threads to come pouring out defending the RWD honor with the same logic leaps haha

I think you looked in your Troll Mirror again Lots of angst and hyperbole in your rant with little fact, definitely troll characteristics.

Better if you try to have a reasoned discussion instead, if you want to be taken seriously.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I think you looked in your Troll Mirror again Lots of angst and hyperbole in your rant with little fact, definitely troll characteristics.

Better if you try to have a reasoned discussion instead, if you want to be taken seriously.

I can't breath I am laughing so hard

I love how [they] did it though! First the ground clearance angle. Then the trucks. And then, all of a sudden, "it isn't about RWD>AWD guyzz! The both lose because they aren't trucks!!1!"

That's some Charlie logic man, and I love it!

Edit: words!

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

I can't breath I am laughing so hard

I love how you did it though! First the ground clearance angle. Then the trucks. And then, all of a sudden, "it isn't about RWD>AWD guyzz! The both lose because they aren't trucks!!1!"

That's some Charlie logic man, and I love it! You made my night!

Your trolling skills are rather mixed up, you can’t seem to get the posters right, please try and keep up - read who posted anything about trucks, it wasn’t me.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Your trolling skills are rather mixed up, you can't seem to get the posters right, please try and keep up - read who posted anything about trucks, it wasn't me.

My bad I will amend the original post. Not pointed at you.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

My bad I will amend the original post. Not pointed at you.

Apology accepted.

[PDM5]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

I love your post. Bless your heart <3 I adore how you set up comparisons between various trucks versus our poor little 2-ers... and took them to slaughter

You ever watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Yours is some Charlie logic right there! It is so beautiful. And batshit crazy!

"Guyzzz, guyzzz!! Ground clearance! Since trucks have them, and our cars don't have them, 2-ers will suck ass AWD or not!!! See! RwD jUsT mIgHT aS w3ll be as G00d aS AwD!!"

I love this. Seems like this thread was the troll whistle for all of the ones in the previous threads to come pouring out defending the RWD honor with the same logic leaps haha

Again, as others have pointed out, Reading comprehension - 100. You - 0. You're obviously trolling (and going "batshit" crazy as you claim anyone who has a slightly differing opinion from you - I claimed AWD beats RWD, so not sure why the need for your post), so I'm just going to say thank you for purchasing a 2 series so that BMW still builds these small coupes in the future and keeps this segment alive.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by PDM5

Again, as others have pointed out, Reading comprehension - 100. You - 0. You're obviously trolling (and going "batshit" crazy as you claim anyone who has a slightly differing opinion from you - I claimed AWD beats RWD, so not sure why the need for your post), so I'm just going to say thank you for purchasing a 2 series so that BMW still builds these small coupes in the future and keeps this segment alive.

Don't hide behind others. Look at your post, that's a prime example of mental leaps to prove a non-point. I have explained enough above, Charlie.

[Denk]

I went from an e92 M3 to an 240xi, that's what I wanted and had no regrets. It wasn't as tail happy as my previous M3, but still a fun little car to toss around. It still gave a kick in the butt with its rear bias. The hookup was impressive, a noticeably a faster car. Try to test drive both.

[damianbmw12]

Originally Posted by Denk

I went from an e92 M3 to an 240xi, that's what I wanted and had no regrets. It wasn't as tail happy as my previous M3, but still a fun little car to toss around. It still gave a kick in the butt with its rear bias. The hookup was impressive, a noticeably a faster car. Try to test drive both.

Originally Posted by Denk

I went from an e92 M3 to an 240xi, that's what I wanted and had no regrets. It wasn't as tail happy as my previous M3, but still a fun little car to toss around. It still gave a kick in the butt with its rear bias. The hookup was impressive, a noticeably a faster car. Try to test drive both.

Ah nice to get back on topic. I have E46 330 and had an E46 M3 both MT and RWD. I've not owned an Autotrans other than trucks since my first car long ago. And it was miserable. Since then cars were all MT. I went to test drive the M240 and all they had was Auto. After the test drive I said to the sales guy "wow that's an amazing trans and amazing car. I love how it hooked up through corners" I asked if he had the AWD version just out of curiosity. He said "you just test drove it." I ordered one in Long Beach Blue soon after. my wife still loves MT so often drives the 330 vs her Auto truck. I actually am liking getting away from the tiresome 3rd pedal. (I expect to be flamed by the diehards for this comment)