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      12-13-2018, 10:48 AM   #199
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I think there are too many people on that watch list to keep an eye on them 24/7.
The main problem is that these guys are born in france/germany/uk/whatever, so they're native citizens. You can be arrested 27 times, and completed your sentences, but then they have to let you go again.
You can't outlaw such a person and take away their citizenship.
Thats why the only real thing you can do is try and prevent such people getting radicalized (and of course try and prevent the illegal weapons trade).
And I think that's still really lacking. In general I hear very little coming from the islamic community in terms of making it a joint venture to block radical imams preaching etc.

Luckily the shooter only got his hand on a (I presume illegal) handgun (thats what I understood from the mediareports based on witnesses). If he could have gotten his hand on an ar-15 style rifle or such, he might have killed much much more. We've all seen the incidents how many persons a single shooter can kill, given such arms.
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      12-13-2018, 12:50 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I think there are too many people on that watch list to keep an eye on them 24/7.
The main problem is that these guys are born in france/germany/uk/whatever, so they're native citizens. You can be arrested 27 times, and completed your sentences, but then they have to let you go again.
You can't outlaw such a person and take away their citizenship.
Thats why the only real thing you can do is try and prevent such people getting radicalized (and of course try and prevent the illegal weapons trade).
And I think that's still really lacking. In general I hear very little coming from the islamic community in terms of making it a joint venture to block radical imams preaching etc.

Luckily the shooter only got his hand on a (I presume illegal) handgun (thats what I understood from the mediareports based on witnesses). If he could have gotten his hand on an ar-15 style rifle or such, he might have killed much much more. We've all seen the incidents how many persons a single shooter can kill, given such arms.
The challenge is balancing rights and freedoms against public safety and I'm afraid that most western countries don't have the stomach to address this in any meaningful way.
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      12-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #201
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So what do you propose?
To give an indication: the fbi terrorist watch list contains an estimated 2 million people.
France has about 100k individuals on their list (estimation what I could find, none of these numbers are officially published I think). To secretly screen a person 24/7 I estimate you need at least 10 secret agents.
You also can't keep all these persons in detention, not enough prisons etc.
And you can't send them out of the country.
Its an impossible situation where a country can only take indirect measures: take as much precautions that these guys dont get radicalized (either in the mosk, in prision etc), precautions that makes it as hard as possible to get weapons, increase punishments, reward betrayal, etc
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      12-13-2018, 01:51 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
So what do you propose?
To give an indication: the fbi terrorist watch list contains an estimated 2 million people.
France has about 100k individuals on their list (estimation what I could find, none of these numbers are officially published I think). To secretly screen a person 24/7 I estimate you need at least 10 secret agents.
You also can't keep all these persons in detention, not enough prisons etc.
And you can't send them out of the country.
Its an impossible situation where a country can only take indirect measures: take as much precautions that these guys dont get radicalized (either in the mosk, in prision etc), precautions that makes it as hard as possible to get weapons, increase punishments, reward betrayal, etc
It's quite the situation. What's at the core of the problem...why are people getting radicalized? Is it hate of the west due to foreign policies?
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      12-13-2018, 02:06 PM   #203
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Is it hate of the west due to foreign policies?
I think so. We fight islamic organisations and they see us as agressors coming from the other side of the world telling them what to do, often with the goal of making money in the process. A bit the chicken or the egg.

But also the enviroment in western society. I mean picture the situation:
You're born in france (or the eu, or the us for that matter).
Your parents are migrants from the 60-70 imported then for cheap labour, so low (none) education, the mother often doesnt even speaks the language (despite living here for 40 years).
You have a low education (stupid parents so not the best genes) due to bad upbringing (stupid folks usually dont stimulate kids to try their best at school and you're living in a bad neighbourhood with bad schooling to begin with), bad friends (in the same boat you are), living in a society that is predudiced against immigrants, especially where your roots lie (so based on looks)

Going back to your ancesters country also doesnt work, as thats an economic shithole, and as you're not born there, you'll be a foreigner to them, not speaking the native language fluently (and their attitude against foreigners is much worse).
So your job/careerprospect is 100% shit, and the establishment picks on you whenever they get the chance (its a fact that an immigrant gets pulled over by the cops about 75 times as much as a white person; that might be for a reason but every time you havent done anything it will feel different)

The only ones that'll have you are radical organisations. The army takes every stupid retard as cannonfudder; so do the radical terrorist factions.

I'm sorry to say, but the last person I want to be in the western world is the son of an arabic immigrant (maroc/tunesia/algeria etc so basically northern african).
Especially in europe.
Maybe in the US its a little bit different, the US (certainly the more populated areas) are far more diverse ethnic wise. There are a lot of asians, a lot of (black) african descent, a lot of latinos. So far more skin colours and also more diversity in religion etc
Here its mostly north african (all islamic), and some black african (and american slave colonies) descent (but they are usually christian). Asians here form more a seperate group here I think but are usually not islamic and there are no western conflicts over there.
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      12-13-2018, 02:15 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
So what do you propose?
To give an indication: the fbi terrorist watch list contains an estimated 2 million people.
France has about 100k individuals on their list (estimation what I could find, none of these numbers are officially published I think). To secretly screen a person 24/7 I estimate you need at least 10 secret agents.
You also can't keep all these persons in detention, not enough prisons etc.
And you can't send them out of the country.
Its an impossible situation where a country can only take indirect measures: take as much precautions that these guys dont get radicalized (either in the mosk, in prision etc), precautions that makes it as hard as possible to get weapons, increase punishments, reward betrayal, etc
Yup, it's a tough situation but we can't do nothing. And at some point governments will get serious but i think there's a lot more tragedy to come first.
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      12-13-2018, 02:31 PM   #205
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Until we deal with the root of the problem it will go on and on and on. At some point someone of influence is going to have to sit down with the 'enemy' and ask them how are we going to coexist on this planet together.
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      12-13-2018, 03:01 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Until we deal with the root of the problem it will go on and on and on. At some point someone of influence is going to have to sit down with the 'enemy' and ask them how are we going to coexist on this planet together.
I think that the extremest only would be happy with westerners and christians not being on the planet any more.
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      12-13-2018, 03:22 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Until we deal with the root of the problem it will go on and on and on. At some point someone of influence is going to have to sit down with the 'enemy' and ask them how are we going to coexist on this planet together.
I think that the extremest only would be happy with westerners and christians not being on the planet any more.
Yup. Unfortunately there is no solution. Europe is done for. Didn't they just let in millions of potential "terrorists"? Asking for a friend.

This will go on and on for many years.
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      12-13-2018, 03:24 PM   #208
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Quote:
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I think that the extremest only would be happy with westerners and christians not being on the planet any more.
Mid and south Africa and south America are full of christians. I dont think they are the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Didn't they just let in millions of potential "terrorists"?
The guy that executed the strasbourg attack was born and raised in France.
And that goes for many of the attacks both regarding to the organisation and execution of attacks.
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      12-13-2018, 03:28 PM   #209
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
I think that the extremest only would be happy with westerners and christians not being on the planet any more.
Mid and south Africa and south America are full of christians. I dont think they are the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Didn't they just let in millions of potential "terrorists"?
The guy that executed the strasbourg attack was born and raised in France.
I understand your point just as you understand mine.

Allowing yourselves to be invaded has caused and will continue to cause these "incidents"
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      12-13-2018, 03:49 PM   #210
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Hell, we've had more terrorist attacks in the US by homegrown, born in the USA terrorists then we have by foreigners.
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      12-13-2018, 03:52 PM   #211
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I understand your point just as you understand mine.

Allowing yourselves to be invaded has caused and will continue to cause these "incidents"
There are also 4 million muslims living in the US, and every year there are about 100k granted citizenship I believe.

My guess is that I think Muslims in the US are generally better off, that they have better odds on the jobmarket etc than in europe, and that thats one of the main differences that europe has this problem more than the US (although the death toll in the US due to terrorist attacks is still much higher of course than in europe)
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      12-13-2018, 03:58 PM   #212
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Quote:
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There are also 4 million muslims living in the US, and every year there are about 100k granted citizenship I believe.

My guess is that I think Muslims in the US are generally better off, that they have better odds on the jobmarket etc than in europe, and that thats one of the main differences that europe has this problem more than the US (although the death toll in the US due to terrorist attacks is still much higher of course than in europe)
You may be right, and I hope that leads to less radicalization. My feeling is that many muslims in Europe are living in ghettos and that between the poor living conditions and then the isolation compounds the problem. If they were interacting into the western lifestyles then the values might be adopted. I think Europes problem is the huge number of muslim migrants. There is no way to integrate that many people in a short period of time.
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      12-13-2018, 05:17 PM   #213
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By any standard the U.S. lets folks into the country, not on merit but on a convoluted hodgepodge of standards.

If it were done strictly to benefit the U.S...we would only admit very talented or otherwise hardworking folks who were successful in their own country. Yet everything I've seen is that "on the average" folks coming in require more gov handouts than the average American. And the average American certainly is no rocket scientist.
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      12-13-2018, 05:20 PM   #214
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The bulk of the immigrants came in the 60's and 70's.
The main fault made then is that back then they didnt oversee integration. They just came to live and work here, sometimes not even learning the language (especially not the wives who came a few years later).
We don't have customs like pledging allegiance to a flag etc. Now immigrants (immigrants here is something different than asylum seekers) need to take an immigration course, an exam etc, but back then they were dropped in society and just had to work poor jobs scooping shit in the cold. And of course they clustered together.
What you have with gangs in LA NYC etc we have with radicalized muslims.
Especially in france there are a lot of north africans (old colonies, so they speak the language more or less) living in huge ghetto's in cities. Germany has mostly turks, but I think the turkish culture is way different. I have the feeling that north african culture is more that kids grow up on the streets and that turkish culture is more in house.
Also turkey is more or less an ally of the west.
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      12-13-2018, 05:25 PM   #215
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Quote:
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By any standard the U.S. lets folks into the country, not on merit but on a convoluted hodgepodge of standards.

If it were done strictly to benefit the U.S...we would only admit very talented or otherwise hardworking folks who were successful in their own country. Yet everything I've seen is that "on the average" folks coming in require more gov handouts than the average American. And the average American certainly is no rocket scientist.
Probably because we need ditch diggers too.

The ironic thing, a lot of our H1Bs go to highly educated individuals. Because our education in this country is falling behind.

Our ditch diggers turn out to be American born citizens while Google, Amazon are hiring educated foreigners on H1Bs. Our talent pool in this country has dried up.

To back up my claim: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...end-tables.pdf
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      12-13-2018, 05:27 PM   #216
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We are churning out gender studies grads and gamers though yeah us.
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      12-13-2018, 07:14 PM   #217
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Probably because we need ditch diggers too.

The ironic thing, a lot of our H1Bs go to highly educated individuals. Because our education in this country is falling behind.

Our ditch diggers turn out to be American born citizens while Google, Amazon are hiring educated foreigners on H1Bs. Our talent pool in this country has dried up.

To back up my claim: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...end-tables.pdf
My argument is WE need to bring the people into our country that WE want here. ".we would only admit very talented or otherwise hardworking folks who were successful in their own country. "-That is what I said in my post.
If we need ditch diggers they need to be adjudged the best "ditch diggers". I respect hard working people-period. In my 72 years in life (as an engineer). I have learned that hard working folks have a habit of succeeding in whatever they do. I respect the person that does his job well. And I can't tell you how many hundreds+ of times I tell/people that.

If a person here (poster) appears to be the dumbest most ignorant SOB I haver have seen. And If some how I knew or saw him/her do an outstanding job at something..he would have my deepest respect.
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      12-13-2018, 07:27 PM   #218
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I don't understand why some people think this is such a bad thing or a Nazi thing...

Yet they think Canada is the most humanitarian country in the world.

In Canada nobody enters, and who's here gets deported.
Points system for immigration.

If the statistics are correct and more illegals use welfare in the US, that's crazy. Definitely not the case in Canada. An illegal wouldn't even be able to go to the hospital and see a doctor, let alone collect money.

And virtually ALL homeless and indigent people are NOT immigrants here, legal or otherwise.
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      12-13-2018, 07:30 PM   #219
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My argument is WE need to bring the people into our country that WE want here. ".we would only admit very talented or otherwise hardworking folks who were successful in their own country. "-That is what I said in my post.
If we need ditch diggers they need to be adjudged the best "ditch diggers". I respect hard working people-period. In my 72 years in life (as an engineer). I have learned that hard working folks have a habit of succeeding in whatever they do. I respect the person that does his job well. And I can't tell you how many hundreds+ of times I tell/people that.

If a person here (poster) appears to be the dumbest most ignorant SOB I haver have seen. And If some how I knew or saw him/her do an outstanding job at something..he would have my deepest respect.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. We already take in very capable, educated, successful individuals as demonstrated by the H1B stats. We also take in normal people too.

Let's face it, if people immigrate into this country and they stay it's because they found an opening in our society that otherwise wasn't being filled. Whether or not that's cutting grass, working in IT, or being a doctor is really irrelevant.

The market in this country decides who immigrates into this country.
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      12-13-2018, 07:34 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post

If the statistics are correct and more illegals use welfare in the US, that's crazy.
Here's the law.

Quote:
Legal immigrants cannot get welfare for their first five years of residency, with few exceptions, mostly at the state level. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare except for rare circumstances like emergency Medicaid.
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