Began upgrade to HK system - hiss, installation & first impressions |
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05-15-2016, 10:44 PM | #23 |
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Reply to Bent Zero
Howdy bub!
I am trying not to use the EQ until the speakers break in more. The Morels need some tweaking because you are so off-axis to them. From the front, you pick up more high end & the upper midbass freqs. So you need to tone those down a little bit. You can clearly hear this yourself by sitting in front & playing only the rears. They sound... off. But go to the back seat, sit between them facing the back window & they sound really, really good at the same volume, etc. Since they're only fill, tweaking the off-axis sound to tame the highs & mid-highs helps for you, the driver & I think passengers will not notice. The woofers need no tweaks. However, I may up the 125hz adjustment slightly, just to present some better balance with the fronts. The highs need ZERO tweaking, so far, on the CDTs up front. That tweeter is scary smooth & the highs (with the Xover set at 0) is perfect (to me) out of the box. The mids? My one buddy who was in my car, listening to Wish You Were Here - and he is a MAJOR PF fan - said, "Wow. Those mids are so warm." And then, when the sax is going full bore, he said "WHOA! That is so clear!" I played an Andy McKee CD the other day. AWESOME all-acoustic instrumental guitar. I play guitar. It sounded like a guitar was actually IN the car. BLEW MY MIND. So far, I am not feeling like I need to tweak any of the front settings. Jim I would tell you the under-seat woofers need no tweaking that I can tell. You will have to match the output from them, though, to your front speakers. It is easy to over-crank them - don't & you will be pleasantly surprised with really decent, clean - and surprisingly musical. Are they audiophile quality? I doubt it, but these are lower mid-bass frequencies down to maybe 30-35 at the lowest. They work very well for metal, rock, instrumental & progressive.
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05-15-2016, 10:57 PM | #24 | |
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BAvsound price on Bimmertech Amp
The B'tech Amp on Bavsound is $997.
$3 shy of $1000. Quote:
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05-15-2016, 11:00 PM | #25 | |
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Multiple posts like yours are exactly what steered me clear of this amp. I was so close to buying one.
Until the lady at Bavsound said, and I quote, "The HK amp is actually quite good, so I would recommend you just replace the speakers." That told me right there, Bavsound just might be _______________. (Fill in the blank with words of your choice.) LOL Quote:
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05-15-2016, 11:08 PM | #26 | |
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By "tune" I am referring to the EQ settings & DSP.
If you have to use an EQ & DSP (that only sets delays to set the sound stage) to make a $1,000 amp produce sound that is satisfactory, well.. Yeah, I know I said tune to "make the amp sound good" but that is because folks are 1) upgrading the amp to the B'tech, which is where the "tune" capabilities reside & 2) usually have upgraded the speakers. So it could be they're trying to make the "speakers" sound better, by using the amp's settings. I was just trying to keep it simply by saying "tune the amp to make it sound better" so I didn't have to be so specific. LOL Also, I had said the just by replacing the HK amp with the JLA amp, the sound of the HK speakers, which I left in at first, VASTLY improved. Which does suggest that an amp alone, made with quality components & set up properly can sound good. My guess is, had I used the B'tech, I would not have realized the same level of improvement. And I say that because whenever I read about the B'tech amp, all I read is "Where's my tune?" "I need a tune!" Which says, the amp itself doesn't sound good out of the box. Jim Quote:
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05-15-2016, 11:13 PM | #27 | |
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BZ - if you have the HK system, I would tell you that you should consider leaving the rear components in. Honestly, for rears, they'll be good enough. I got the Morels early & could not return them once I got my car & did the amp install. If I didn't already have those, I'd likely have left the rears in.
Because then my plan would have been to watch CDT website's "Buy Refurbished" for the ES Gold 42i. Then I would have bought those for the front & moved the current CDT HD42's to the rear later down the line. Jim Quote:
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05-15-2016, 11:47 PM | #28 | ||
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05-15-2016, 11:57 PM | #29 | |
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Then there's all that bling that you just displayed. While it looks dope it looks well beyond what I'd want to get into. As I said, I haven't ruled out the Bimmertech amp. I just know that I need to work getting it tuned or buying the equipment to tune it into my budget in the event that I'm not able to tweak it myself. I like the idea of being able to tune it. It's the stories I hear of people not being able to tune it that give me pause though. That said, I also understand that you're going to hear of problems far more than you'll hear praise. That's the internet for you. :|
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05-16-2016, 02:06 AM | #30 |
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You jack my thread with your ridiculous pics? Are you, like, 10 years old? You breaking out your varsity jacket next? And do you know the point of these forums and posts? You, sir, are a commercial enterprise & an invited guest. Know your place & be respectful - or get lost.
No one here is bragging - except you. I didn't compare your amp to the JL Audio amp. I compared it to the stock HK system. Others mentioned your amp so I talked about what others posted. And in my view there are too many of what I feel are negative posts about it. I am not required to search for nor post positive reviews. Someone buys the stuff I said & hates it has every right to say so. Doesn't change nor diminish what I said. I help one person, that's enough for me. Sound quality is subjective. Operative word there... that pesky subjectivity. Not for you to say or criticize. And you said all that matters - if it sounds great to to the listener with "untrained ears", (LOL) then it's perfect. Go ahead & alienate some more potential customers... Next thing you know, Nelson will be posting how all these untrained car enthusiasts brag about their fake M cars & wouldn't know a great driving car if it ran them over. Unless it was a Ferrari & the driver win a trophy. THEN we'd know a driver's car! LOL Are you serious with yourself here man? For reals? (I wouldn't be posting any of this if Nelson kept his yap shut & didn't post pics of his trophies. Snicker. And brag about his stuff. LOL But he did, and he jacked my thread... so here we go!) What's a trained ear anyway? I have a trained finger. Pull it. My other finger is trained too. I can show you what it does when some condescending braggart tries to tell me what sounds great to me & my "untrained ears". Listen! Do you smell that?! (Points if you get the reference!) Does a live orchestra have a DSP? LOL Heart of a great system is a DSP? I say someone who says that has an untrained ear and is 100% clueless about music & sound. And probably would post pics of his trophies & car stereo equipment to prove otherwise. Joe Audiophile with the golden uber-trained ear is gonna tell you if you need an EQ or digital anything, you have crap equipment & an untrained ear. So who is right, my overly sensitive car stereo installer person? This is THE SECOND time I've seen Nelson jack a thread & be negative/condescending when someone posts their experience, knowledge & insights. To Viffermike of all people - one of the most knowledgeable & helpful people on this forum. This thread is about people who, like me, read THOSE posts & are looking for other solutions for THEIR money. I posted about a great sounding solution that works for me. And that is fact enough (as is everything else I posted.) I am not, and it would seem the majority of users in the forums are not, going for competition grade highest end sound. (That's in my house.) They're looking to improve sound quality & trying to make cost effective decisions that can sound great. After spending $875 for what is clearly a piss-poor audio "upgrade", this is our choice & for some their only choice. Folks looking for answers & help - which is what this forum is about - do not need to plow through a bunch of nonsense posted by some guy with ruffled feathers. "oh my god my amp is being compared to anything without a DSP? How much is the amp he's talking about? is it like my super high end stuff? no? feel faint... better post pics of my trophies. I bet he bought it from an unauthorized dealer for the cheaper price too." Customers are going to post negative reviews of your products & talk about issues. Grow a thicker skin & stop jacking peoples' threads with your braggadocio. Put it in your trunk next to your DSP. Jim [QUOTE=Nelson@BimmerTech;19940742]It really amazes me the amount of ... Last edited by MASHCT; 05-16-2016 at 04:42 AM.. Reason: To be less like Nelson but still be hilarious |
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05-16-2016, 04:11 AM | #31 |
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As you said in another post, "That told me right there, Bavsound just might be _______________. (Fill in the blank with words of your choice.)". Why would you therefore use them as a pricing example?
You can go to the manufacturer's site, where it's $849. Why would you go to someone clearly marking it up well past that? I'm sure I could have found a dealer willing to sell my my car at a premium to MSRP instead of a discount. That doesn't mean I'd use him as the exemplar when discussing the price of the car.
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05-16-2016, 08:25 AM | #32 |
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I have absolutely zero problems with negative reviews from real life customers that own or have tested our amp. You haven't. Trust me i've learned how to be thick skinned in here, i usually just ignore most of the false info and keep it moving. Which i was advice to. Why do you think a lot of audio gurus aren't active in these forums...
Although Viffermike has been very critical of our amp he usually post informative posts. You call that bragging?? I posted our SQ trophies to show you that i was not an average joe in tuning and Brax amps to inform you what kind of products Audiotec-Fischer manufactures since you "never heard of them". Have a GREAT DAY my friend! Last edited by Nelson@BimmerTech; 05-16-2016 at 08:59 AM.. |
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05-16-2016, 10:10 AM | #33 |
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OK, guys, my two cents:
Nelson@BimmerTech : Thanks for the kudos. Seriously: it's really appreciated considering how critical I've been at times. Tunes can be exceedingly difficult for those without an ear for a number of things: what specific frequencies sound like, timing, knowledge of how sound waves behave when reflected, etc. That's why many Home Theater systems have automated software to achieve a tune (Audyssey is the most popular example of this). It's just too complicated to do unless you have "that ear" and know how to adjust response to suit an environment using both that ear and more objective methods (test tones, listening mics, etc.). Add to that the fact that we all have subjective definitions of what good sound is, which compounds the frustration for many. The above is one of the many reasons why I personally strive for as even a frequency response as possible with my systems. I've chosen my home speakers (two complete systems), my headphones (I own eight pair), and my source components (two CD components, a Mac Mini running iTunes through BitPerfect and an external DAC, four portable CD players, several DMPs) to be as even and accurate as possible. Why? Two reasons: - The source material often favors some frequencies over others. Sometimes it's unintentional or part of the 'character' of the recording (examples: Lo-Fi indie rock, classic country), sometimes it's very much on purpose (examples: hip hop, movie soundtracks). - The knowledge that some programming is going to sound better than other programming with a flat, 'direct' tune. The second part is important to realize. Any one tune isn't going to make everything sound great, even on a sonically perfect system. Why? Your subjective preferences. I was a professional music critic for eight years. When reviewing a recording, I listened to it in three places before I ever typed a word: headphones, home, car. Why? Music can sound different through different systems and affect its impact for all of the reasons above, and many more. All that said, in as imperfect an environment as a car interior, accuracy is less important but clarity is more important. That's why I support upgrades that improve clarity -- better speakers, more clean power (to a point), DSP removal, simplicity of signal path. With a clear, flat baseline, everything will sound better overall to most ears. Will it be perfect? No. Nothing will. MASH65 is going about things the right way, including allowing the speakers to break in (20 hours is generally the point where most speakers have loosened up). However, Nelson@BimmerTech oversimplifies when he states that "The heart of any GREAT sounding system is the DSP". That only applies if the DSP is tuned by someone who knows what they're doing, and can tune to the subjective tastes of the customer/listener as well as the listening environment -- another reason why I advocate a flat, accurate system for most because someone who can do both of those things well is exceedingly rare (Believe me: I know alllll about subjectivity from my critic days, LOL!).
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05-16-2016, 10:47 AM | #34 | |
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I have my HT and music stereo setup in same room. HT setup uses DSP to compensate for room acoustic and speaker deficiency while my stereo setup has no DSP (not even tone control). I tweak my stereo setup by positioning speakers and listening location only. I can "hear" benefit of DSP with its consistent tonal balance but my stereo setup gives me much better clarity with subtle ambiance information not present in my HT setup which is likely masked by DSP. I think DSP is a good think if used in moderation and not to compensate high deficiency level. This reminds me of automatic lens distortion correction used in modern cameras. It allow for cheaper and more compact wide angle lenses. Correcting distortion on these wide angle lenses does have side effects by making wide angle "less" wide (after correction) with less effective resolution at the corners as it needs to stretch an area with fixed resolution. |
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05-16-2016, 01:16 PM | #35 | |
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A flat eq response system will only sound good with those that only listen to reference music not those with low quality mp3 or bluetooth audio as source with regrettably is what most people use nowadays.... Although i've been doing this for over 15 years i still attend yearly tuning seminars by Nick Wingate(Team Focal) Fred(Arc Audio) and Andy Wehmeyer(JBL, AudioFrog) to make sure i'm up to date with new techniques. One thing i'm glad about this convo is people are realizing that tuning is not easy and is time consuming.... If you ever wanted to try my demo amp(no purchase required, just refundable deposit) just let me know and we'll work something out. Hopefully that way you can give the forum a fair opinion. |
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05-16-2016, 01:47 PM | #36 | |
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05-16-2016, 06:01 PM | #37 | |
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I'll keep your request in mind as I'm installing, but I currently have a long list of spring chores to do, so not sure when I'll get around to it. |
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05-16-2016, 06:30 PM | #38 | |
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As to the statement that a 2K system can sound better than a 20K one is just a red herring. Who knows who did the setup and sometimes a lower priced component is just a remarkable gem (I will put my Audio Refinement by YBA home gear up against products costing hundreds or even a couple of thousand more any day of the week). What's more bothersome is Nelson@BimmerTech's runaway ego. I'm sorry I didn't train my ear ... WTF does that mean anyway? The post was insulting to those of us who don't think the amp is the starting point, who think selmeralto and Viffermike have a really good handle on this system, and who think that the last piece to worry about is the amp (especially with the ECU flash issue discovered by Zooks527). Not interested in doing business with a trophy case, thank you very much. |
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05-16-2016, 07:04 PM | #39 | |
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05-16-2016, 07:29 PM | #40 | ||
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05-16-2016, 08:08 PM | #41 |
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05-16-2016, 08:23 PM | #42 |
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Agreed. I was suggesting that the last upgrade I would consider would be the amp and would do all the other things suggested in the Dr. Strangelove thread before doing an amp upgrade both because it makes sense and because of the possible flash issue.
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05-16-2016, 08:25 PM | #43 |
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Understood, I am doing the amp first as I have a cab and I need a little bit more power.
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05-17-2016, 09:46 AM | #44 | |
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... and the problem with saving the amp as the last upgrade in our cars is the DSP in it. Remember: that DSP is not tuned for the car's acoustics; it's tuned to mask the deficiencies of the OEM system: speakers, head unit, digital bitrate defaults, subwoofer power, etc. To get rid of the OEM DSP, only two actions are possible: 1). Replace the OEM amp 2). Install another DSP unit to correct, as best as is possible, the OEM DSP (Highly, highly, HIGHLY discouraged. HIGHLY!) As you know, in most cases high-end audio should be assessed flat as a baseline. We can't do that with our systems. So the process has to happen backwards: make the system more flat to reset the baseline. The golden rule in improving a system -- ANY system, not just an audio system -- is to improve the weakest link in the system. In an audio system, wide-range speakers (as opposed to subs) that can reproduce cleanly should ALWAYS be the first thing done unless power isn't sufficient to drive them. The next step? Minimize tone coloring. That's the DSP. In our cars, that means the amp goes next. There's really no other way around it. Despite the experience of Zooks527 I don't see a huge issue with swapping the OEM amp back in if an ECU reflash is required. As others have noted, it's not a common occurrence, and to date no one else has had that happen. Integration-wise, it could be a LOT worse. Just keep the OEM amp, folks!
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