[esoulliard]

I currently have an M235i as my daily driver and I do about 12-14 track days (HPDEs) with it per year. I've been thinking about getting something a little more planted and with less understeer for the track. I wanted to get some opinions on whether it would be worth upgrading to an M2. It looks like it would end up costing me roughly $25k if I sell/trade in my M235i. I do think it would be a better platform (limited slip, wider track, wider wheels), but would it be worth it?

My other options would be to keep my current car and maybe do some work to it (like camber plates), or to upgrade to something completely different like a new Supra. The issues I have with the Supra are: no manual transmission and no back seats.

I was just looking for some thoughts/opinions from fellow track rats.

[PeanuKeeyes]

I’ve been back and forth on this as well. The prices of the OG M2’s are starting to look more reasonable and there’s definitely a lot of benefits to upgrading. The guys and gals here are probably sick of me posting about this but the oil starvation issue with the N55 and N20 is a real deal breaker for me in terms of adding camber plates or getting much more aggressive than stock for track use. There are remedies for the N55 with the aftermarket racing sump system. So far nothing for us N20 folks.

Insurance for M2 is not bad at all last time I checked, but overall cost to own will be marginally higher but that’s pretty obvious. You’ll still need wheels/tires/pads, yada yada, but depending on what your current setup is, you could probably transfer some stuff over no problem. I like the OG M2 because they retain the normal 2 series seats which allow for the Schroth quick fit harnesses. They made a few lightweight M2’s that were not advertised at the time of release ‘16. All alpine white with manual seats and other weight savings. That would be a cool one to track down and I’d definitely level up with one of those.

[K8_M235i]

Originally Posted by esoulliard

I currently have an M235i as my daily driver and I do about 12-14 track days (HPDEs) with it per year. I've been thinking about getting something a little more planted and with less understeer for the track. I wanted to get some opinions on whether it would be worth upgrading to an M2. It looks like it would end up costing me roughly $25k if I sell/trade in my M235i. I do think it would be a better platform (limited slip, wider track, wider wheels), but would it be worth it?

My other options would be to keep my current car and maybe do some work to it (like camber plates), or to upgrade to something completely different like a new Supra. The issues I have with the Supra are: no manual transmission and no back seats.

I was just looking for some thoughts/opinions from fellow track rats.

I have gone through this before, but I'm in a slightly different scenario.

My m235 is my back up track car to my e36 race car.
I also have an f80 m3, which I guess is a back up to the m235. I have thought about springing to an og m2, but I think og m2s are very similar to m235s, where as m2 comps are more similar to f80 m3s. I really like my m235 and don't think the cost is worth it to upgrade to an og m2 in my scenario.

The biggest issue with my m235, your m235, and everyone else's m235 is oil starvation. With the amount of events you do I'm surprised you haven't spun a rod bearing. I spun a bearing at Watkins Glen this fall and my engine was replaced with a brand new n55 under warranty. If my car wasn't under warranty I would definitely not drive it the way I do.

From what you've said, in order to not get an m2 you'd need to do:

Camber plates (also needed on m2) ($500)
Lsd ($3kish)
Oil pan baffle ($300 + install)
Or
S55/ n55 m2 and m235ir oil pan and sump ($3k ish)

I'm still undecided on whether or not I want to try a baffle and hope it works, or just go with the sump/pan retrofit for peace of mind.

If you bought an m2 you wouldn't have to deal with adding an lsd or fixing any oiling issues.

[PeanuKeeyes]

There are a couple manual M2’s in Jersey for sale in the $34-$38k range right now. One is black with clear glass with 47k miles and $34k listing. I’m trying to save some cash these days, otherwise I’d be all over that.

[esoulliard]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to have to read up on the oil starvation issue. I'm hesitant to sink too much more money into my M235i to end up with something that still has some hard limitations (like the amount of tire that I can fit on it).

[Maynard]

I was running a 228, but I was in a similar dilemma. Short version is I went with an M2comp because it had a lot that would be unreasonable to try to add to the 228. I went new, but there are a lot of gently used M2c's in the 50's. I was not looking broadly at other marques/models for a pure track toy - there are a lot of better options out there for that if you want to turn a few wrenches (but the Supra sounds like a terrible track car, IMHO).

Everything will need camber plates, and if you are really just hunting for a good handling BALANCE you can get that w/o expensive mods (but at the loss of top speeds, because you will be somewhat reducing rear grip). With the 235, you are pretty much tapped out in terms of brakes and tires; significant upgrading is very expensive (but you can still run 17" wheel setups). And it is a chassis designed more for comfort than track manners so it needs a lot of stiffening that is hard to do aftermarket. If you want to do all that custom work, there are better platforms to start from.

M cars all have better chassis - hubs that you can add AP brakes to and with better bearings, better geometry, stiffer overall chassis/bushings, and more tire; also the LSD. Engines on all the M's have the oil problem addressed, but the OG M2 is otherwise pretty much identical to the 235. This means readily heat soaking, with iffy oil, water, and trans cooling for track use (M2c is like a rolling heat exchanger); S55 is a whole other league. If you go MT there isn't much transmission difference, but the DCT is considered to be massively superior on track to the std auto (I liked the zf, so can't complain and not sure how much better they could get; I'll see this summer).

So for me, I figured that by the time I upgraded all the cooling and stiffened bushings, I'd have spent a ton of money making the car into something only I would love, and probably just about killing it (the N20 is really being flogged out on track and I figured it wouldn't last that long before I killed the xfer box or diff, perhaps turbo too; all expensive out of warranty). For me, the designed-in upgrades, plus the warranty, made for a compelling argument; if you aren't worried about maintenance issues, the OG M2 can also be a good choice. Down side of M2C is those damned seats (and the 40# brakes, but they are a good argument to drop the $$$ on AP's).

[fatsport]

I would do an M4 next if you can save up for it. Better motor than the M2 and can run wider tires/slicks. Oddly the car weighs about the same as an M2 despite the larger size.
No matter what you decide it’s a dilemma, pitting how fast you want to go vs how much you want to pay. There’s also the additional cost of track insurance if you decide to get it.
Additionally, as you get faster with a fast car costs increase dramatically. I have a C7 Z06 that was pretty cheap to run at first, it’s very well equipped for the track. But running lower lap times eat brakes, tires & require more maintenance. This is true with any car you go fast in.
Good luck with your decision. Take your time and weigh your options.

[PeanuKeeyes]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I was running a 228, but I was in a similar dilemma. Short version is I went with an M2comp because it had a lot that would be unreasonable to try to add to the 228.

This thread is starting to hit home for me.. I am in the odd camp of people who dislike the M2 body style compared to the regular 2 series, but I agree with your reasoning 100% for the upgrade. Transfer box, diff, engine, bushings, etc. so many things will need upgrading in the regular 2 series chassis. The other option which I have a whole thread on in this section, is running the 2 series with a dedicated E36, as wheels/tires are interchangeable with plug and play offsets. But now those cars are going up in price to the point it’s not a very cost effective solution. And for people who want 400hp in the straights, obviously E36 era isn’t the best car.

Honestly, Cayman GTS, the 4cyl turbo from a couple years ago, is a very decent option. You lose backseats but you gain mid-engine balance and good torque for daily driving. That car needs nothing but rubber to be track ready weapon for a similar price to an M2C. If I was going to upgrade from my 228i, I would for sure consider the GTS.

[Maynard]

Yes, once you are willing to step outside the BMW family, there are better tracking options - either older track-only cars, or newer mixed use ones (Cayman is at the top of the list for me, but even used they are near the cost of a new M2).

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by K8_M235i

I have gone through this before, but I'm in a slightly different scenario.

My m235 is my back up track car to my e36 race car.
I also have an f80 m3, which I guess is a back up to the m235. I have thought about springing to an og m2, but I think og m2s are very similar to m235s, where as m2 comps are more similar to f80 m3s. I really like my m235 and don't think the cost is worth it to upgrade to an og m2 in my scenario.

The biggest issue with my m235, your m235, and everyone else's m235 is oil starvation. With the amount of events you do I'm surprised you haven't spun a rod bearing. I spun a bearing at Watkins Glen this fall and my engine was replaced with a brand new n55 under warranty. If my car wasn't under warranty I would definitely not drive it the way I do.

From what you've said, in order to not get an m2 you'd need to do:

Camber plates (also needed on m2) ($500)
Lsd ($3kish)
Oil pan baffle ($300 + install)
Or
S55/ n55 m2 and m235ir oil pan and sump ($3k ish)

I'm still undecided on whether or not I want to try a baffle and hope it works, or just go with the sump/pan retrofit for peace of mind.

If you bought an m2 you wouldn't have to deal with adding an lsd or fixing any oiling issues.

+1 if you are going to drive it hard get an M2.... the N55 oil issue is a time bomb

[msendit]

I don't agree with the consensus here. $25k is a lot of money for marginal gains from an M2. OP, seems like your problems have easy sub-1k solutions -- baffle/accusump for oiling; and more front tire / bigger rear ARB / etc for balance. That leaves $23k remaining for tires and brakes / more track time / instruction.

And whatever you end up doing (M235/M2/Supra), you'll need more front camber. I'm very surprised with 14 events per year, you're not going through 14 sets of front tires without a camber solution. That tells me the car is way under its current limits, and spending that 25k on track time & consumables is probably a better tradeoff than jumping on the upgrade train.

[K8_M235i]

Originally Posted by msendit

I don't agree with the consensus here. $25k is a lot of money for marginal gains from an M2. OP, seems like your problems have easy sub-1k solutions -- baffle/accusump for oiling; and more front tire / bigger rear ARB / etc for balance. That leaves $23k remaining for tires and brakes / more track time / instruction.

And whatever you end up doing (M235/M2/Supra), you'll need more front camber. I'm very surprised with 14 events per year, you're not going through 14 sets of front tires without a camber solution. That tells me the car is way under its current limits, and spending that 25k on track time & consumables is probably a better tradeoff than jumping on the upgrade train.

These are good points.

Another thing to mention is that you will probably run into the same thing with an m2. It's a never ending cycle. There will always be things that could be improved.

[Gepeto]

How fast do you have to be before the oil starvation is an issue? Would someone running 3-4 sec off the pace on a 1m lap have issues or is it really good people mostly?

I have a M235i, and when the M2 came out I tried one, but I found that while it was better, the cost made it not very interesting, as someone who already had a M235i. If I had no car I would’ve gone M2 at that point but I had the other one.

I figured, for now I keep the M235i, lightly modded, do 6-7 track days a year with it, and eventually I get a used Cayman S for summer and track, and keep the M235i as daily/winter/backup track car..

[PeanuKeeyes]

Things start blowing up when you make it easier to carry more speed through the corners, such as by adding camber adjustment and aggressive rubber. Just stick with a modest tire setup, say 245 square with durable rubber and skip camber plates, sway bars, etc. Just drive it to the limit of grip and you should be fine. Unless you’re pushing 10/10ths with a setup like that, there isn’t a huge reason to add all that other stuff IMO. Get a good track Alignment with 0.0 front toe to help with tire sidewall wear.

[Gepeto]

I did add camber bushings mostly to save on tires, but I’m running square RS4 in 235 (will go to 245 after this set, was waiting to see what the clearance would be like). I think it’s safe to say my skills are protecting my engine for now! Thanks.

[Maynard]

From what I have seen, it is not a certainty that you will blow a N55, even if you do push it. Those that do report problems often find them on long very fast sweepers (10 seconds plus at high G, high rpm). Rcomp tires seem more worrisome than camber plates for this. An accusump was my plan to manage this, but I think that the previous poster who said that was a 'sub-$1k-fix was a bit optimistic (that might cover the parts though).

[msendit]

Originally Posted by Maynard

An accusump was my plan to manage this, but I think that the previous poster who said that was a 'sub-$1k-fix was a bit optimistic (that might cover the parts though).

Ya, that's fair. I just put one in my other car -- cost $800 in parts and an evening in the shop, taking my time (first time assemblying AN hose). With how packed an N55 engine bay is, compared, a shop will probably charge you 5-6 hours labor.

[ggggbmw]

Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes

Things start blowing up when you make it easier to carry more speed through the corners, such as by adding camber adjustment and aggressive rubber. Just stick with a modest tire setup, say 245 square with durable rubber and skip camber plates, sway bars, etc. Just drive it to the limit of grip and you should be fine.

It looks like my strategy of 'keep it stock and cheap' will pay off then. I only run a 225 200TW tire, and track pads, and everything else is stock. I'm only pulling a sustained ~0.9G in the carousel at Road America, and that is a looooong corner. I don't think I'm giving up much based on similar cars/speeds.

At least I hope that works.

I've been following this thread because I keep toying with the same idea. Trade my 235 for an OG M2 for more track fun. But the costs are just so much more, and the M2 will not be a better DD. I think I'd rather spend the extra money on more track days. (And yet, I keep running the numbers.... )

[SkyeC]

The benefit to narrow body cars is the reduced running cost. Yeah, it sucks to be limited to 245 or 255 square, but have you checked the pricing on 275 or 285 square 200tw tires you'd run on an M2? Ouch...

For the extra money spent, it's probably better to just get a damn Miata/86/E36 M3 and be done with it.

[xingqianli]

IMO oil starvation is the biggest concern here (as to suspension and brake you will probably find yourself wanting to upgrade later even in a M2)

A solid drivetrain is the most important thing for a track car IMO for obvious reasons like repair cost and down time for track