[Liquidpaper]

So, everyone has seen some video of me not horribly screwing up during track events. Old news.

But...what about some video of some epic Buttonwillow moon-dust covered spin-outs?

Enjoy.

P.S. Car is fine (was dusty till I had it cleaned) and I am fine. Actually turned in a decent lap time at the end of the day.

[1ChrisRuck]

Looks like fun until... and yeah your absolutely correct, we learn from our mistakes and inevitably get better... Hats off to you for tracking your car

It's good to know you and the car are well aside from the dust storm

[ocN55]

Gnarly! what was your best lap time?

[allthatisntnow]

At least yourself and the car are ok: the advantage of having wide run off areas. Is this sport + with stability off?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by ocN55

Gnarly! what was your best lap time?

Last session I ran around a 2:12, which is decent for that configuration.

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

At least yourself and the car are ok: the advantage of having wide run off areas. Is this sport + with stability off?

Nope, this was DSC OFF mode. If you make a mistake, the car lets you know...

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

P.S. Car is fine (was dusty till I had it cleaned) and I am fine. Actually turned in a decent lap time at the end of the day.

Thanks for editing and posting the video. Right to the point.

Most importantly here, there was no permanent harm to either you or the car, so thank god for that!

As far as the spin outs, does the club you go with have any rules regarding off-track incidents? The club I go with for HPDE track days has very specific rules for any incidents where the car spins or all 4 tires leave the track surface:

1. On the first incident you have to immediately report to the pit and explain what happened.

2. On the second incident, you're done for the day.

Did both of your incidents happen the same day?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Thanks for editing and posting the video. Right to the point.

Most importantly here, there was no permanent harm to either you or the car, so thank god for that!

As far as the spin outs, does the club you go with have any rules regarding off-track incidents? The club I go with for HPDE track days has very specific rules for any incidents where the car spins or all 4 tires leave the track surface:

1. On the first incident you have to immediately report to the pit and explain what happened.

2. On the second incident, you're done for the day.

Did both of your incidents happen the same day?

Same day. Club I was with allowed three "4 wheels off" incidents per day. Also, I think they gave me clemency (a little) because I headed for the pit without being told to each time to get myself checked out. In fact, after that second spin (different session), I just threw it in for that session to get my head back on straight.

[opfreak]

no damage with both spins?

I'm surprised the tire didnt pop with that curb hit.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by opfreak

no damage with both spins?

I'm surprised the tire didnt pop with that curb hit.

Just a dusty car. I think I was straight on enough on the curb hit that nothing happened. Lucky me.

[jskrilla]

As long as you and the car are alright thats all that matters...practice makes perfect.

[mmmmm235i]

Looks like fun, happy to hear that you and the car are ok. Kind of off topic, but your lack of damage on that second hit surprised me. On my way to work this morning I hit what was basically a pebble in the street and I have suspension damage (not covered by warranty). I guess sometimes it is better to be lucky. Be careful and enjoy the car.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by mmmmm235i

Looks like fun, happy to hear that you and the car are ok. Kind of off topic, but your lack of damage on that second hit surprised me. On my way to work this morning I hit what was basically a pebble in the street and I have suspension damage (not covered by warranty). I guess sometimes it is better to be lucky. Be careful and enjoy the car.

Yeah, well at the time, I didn't even notice launching my back end into the air. It was more obvious on the video. That being said, I think the front, rather than the side, caught the curb, which is why I didn't receive any damage. I'm pretty sure had I been going sideways into the curb, I would have had problems.

Oh well. All's well that ends well. I think my car is a little "loose" though, at least for my skill level (low), based on my past three days at the track. I might go back to have the alignment tweaked to give the car a little more push. Maybe a slight increase in rear camber. Not sure. I'll have to ask them.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

So, everyone has seen some video of me not horribly screwing up during track events.

Everyone makes mistakes - what's important is:

- with a fast car, one should only do them on a track which you do
- each mistake is taken advantage as a "material" for learning" (which I'm sure is the case with you, too)

Regarding the first mistake which you call "don't overcorrect" in your vid, there are some important points to be made:

1. Most untrained people - when their rear is trying to overtake their front of the car, i.e. in a deeply oversteering situation like this - panic, and take their foot off the accelerator pedal (or even brake). This causes re-distribution of the axes load (more goes to the front), which can only aggravate the situation

2. When in need for counter-reacting one must remember that if the oversteering is sufficiently taken control of (unlike on your video ) - the very first ting the should do is the opposite counter-action on the steering wheel - otherwise, if the original oversteer was deep enough - the rear will return to the straight line and pass it into the opposite direction in no time, and this secondary "pendulum effect" might prove to be even deeper than the original one, and thus impossible to straighten no matter what. When one trains for this for the first couple of times, it might feel counterintuitive to apply the "secondary counter-action" as early as it's required; the car's rear hasn't even started its moving back to the straight line yet (after the original oversteering), when you already need to "preemptively counteract" the imminent pendulum effect - and that in the same direction that the rear is still pointing in! Fighting this completely unintuitive feeling is the most important thing to master; only after it doesn't feel so counter-intuitive any more and becomes your second nature can you say you really are ready to turn DSC off, and still be relatively safe. But again: still only on the track only!

Good luck; Piotr

PS. After my 2-years with the xdrive F10, I missed the RWD thrills (and rewards of clean and effective reactions in situations like these) so much that I traded my 528xi in for the M235i - this is currently the only BMW model I can afford that will hopefully remind me of my years behind my good old E46 330i's steering wheel... Unfortunately, for some reasons beyond me, I'm already waiting the fourth month for it to be delivered (it was ordered on December the 8th, 2014, and the production hasn't even started yet; the dealer says it will be made in March for sure - but waiting is killing me )

[MG 228i]

Thanks for posting.
I had the same mistake at the track, but unlucky.
There was not enough run off.

Just curious what is the best way to correct the first mistake besides counter steering?
More gas instead of lifting off?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Everyone makes mistakes - what's important is:

- with a fast car, one should only do them on a track which you do
- each mistake is taken advantage as a "material" for learning" (which I'm sure is the case with you, too)

Regarding the first mistake which you call "don't overcorrect" in your vid, there are some important points to be made:

1. Most untrained people - when their rear is trying to overtake their front of the car, i.e. in a deeply oversteering situation like this - panic, and take their foot off the accelerator pedal (or even brake). This causes re-distribution of the axes load (more goes to the front), which can only aggravate the situation

2. When in need for counter-reacting one must remember that if the oversteering is sufficiently taken control of (unlike on your video ) - the very first ting the should do is the opposite counter-action on the steering wheel - otherwise, if the original oversteer was deep enough - the rear will return to the straight line and pass it into the opposite direction in no time, and this secondary "pendulum effect" might prove to be even deeper than the original one, and thus impossible to straighten no matter what. When one trains for this for the first couple of times, it might feel counterintuitive to apply the "secondary counter-action" as early as it's required; the car's rear hasn't even started its moving back to the straight line yet (after the original oversteering), when you already need to "preemptively counteract" the imminent pendulum effect - and that in the same direction that the rear is still pointing in! Fighting this completely unintuitive feeling is the most important thing to master; only after it doesn't feel so counter-intuitive any more and becomes your second nature can you say you really are ready to turn DSC off, and still be relatively safe. But again: still only on the track only!

Good luck; Piotr

PS. After my 2-years with the xdrive F10, I missed the RWD thrills (and rewards of clean and effective reactions in situations like these) so much that I traded my 528xi in for the M235i - this is currently the only BMW model I can afford that will hopefully remind me of my years behind my good old E46 330i... Unfortunately, for some reasons beyond me, I'm already waiting the fourth month for it to be delivered (it was ordered on December the 8th, 2014, and the production hasn't even started yet; the dealer says it will be made in March for sure - but waiting is killing me )

Thank you for the feedback -- really appreciate it.

Thing is, I know I'm supposed to countersteer, but it's one thing to know the theory, and another to apply it. There were other times that day that I properly countersteered and I was fine. Just those two times...not so much.

In any event, still working on it. Just chalking up those ones to "learning from mistakes."

Originally Posted by MG 228i

Thanks for posting.
I had the same mistake at the track, but unlucky.
There was not enough run off.

Just curious what is the best way to correct the first mistake besides counter steering?
More gas instead of lifting off?

In theory (again, not so good at practical use yet) you should keep your accelerator level, or give it a little throttle (throttle steer) to get your back under control while you counter steer. It's kind of hard to explain -- you just have to experience it and practice to get a feel for it.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by MG 228i

Thanks for posting.
I had the same mistake at the track, but unlucky.
There was not enough run off.

Just curious what is the best way to correct the first mistake besides counter steering?
More gas instead of lifting off?

To answer your question: absolutely yes (more or maintained propelling torque) - but again, on track only - for obvious reasons...

[Silvermike]

that back end seems bitchy.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by Silvermike

that back end seems bitchy.

I agree. I think it's a little too edgy for my taste. I really should take it in for a revised alignment. Maybe more camber in the rear. Not sure. Thanks everyone for confirming my suspicions.

[Silvermike]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

I agree. I think it's a little too edgy for my taste. I really should take it in for a revised alignment. Maybe more camber in the rear. Not sure. Thanks everyone for confirming my suspicions.

FWIW... I run H&R springs with a 255/235 tire setup. I did 1.5* rear, 0.8* front and 0 toe. Thats been handling pretty neutral for me

[MG 228i]

Originally Posted by moldcad

To answer your question: absolutely yes (more or maintained propelling torque) - but again, on track only - for obvious reasons...

Definitely something I'd like to practice.

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

I agree. I think it's a little too edgy for my taste. I really should take it in for a revised alignment. Maybe more camber in the rear. Not sure. Thanks everyone for confirming my suspicions.

More rear toe in perhaps?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by Silvermike

FWIW... I run H&R springs with a 255/235 tire setup. I did 1.5* rear, 0.8* front and 0 toe. Thats been handling pretty neutral for me

I upped my front because I was having horrible tire wear problems. I'm at 2.25 front, so maybe I need to drop the front a little. Maybe 2. I'll ask the experts.

[bd307]

Focus practicing the throttle control (both for turns and for countersteering corrections) on the track.

Anyone can countersteer all they want, but without proper throttling the car just simply cannot be straighten out or go to the direction you want it to be.

Another trick taught by a professional driver is to look at the direction you want the car to go (hopefully it is the track road) instead of focusing on the wall or the object that you think you are about to hit or avoid.

Hopefully seeing you soon on the track