[Klontje]

I am in the market for a BMW M235i/M240i and have a question about xDrive. We do not get lots of snow where I live, at most a few days a year. We do however have lots of rain. I also know there have been many threads already on xDrive and whether it's worth it, but most of them are related to weather conditions.

What I would like to know is more from a performance/grip perspective combined with a tuned M235i/M240i making 400-500bhp. A friend of mine has a BMW M2 and is having trouble putting all of his power down on wet roads. I imagine xDrive can provide some benefits in this case, especially looking at the tire sizes on an M235i/M240i.

It will be my daily driver, but also intend (later on) to track the car or in a few years, after the warranty has expired, to throw a tune + some hardware mods on it and have it as designated track car.

Anybody who bought an xDrive for the ability to better put the power down? I am aware of the lack of an LSD off the shelf, so am planning to put the M performance LSD on right after buying one in any case.

[Rick.Null]

Originally Posted by Klontje

I am in the market for a BMW M235i/M240i and have a question about xDrive. We do not get lots of snow where I live, at most a few days a year. We do however have lots of rain. I also know there have been many threads already on xDrive and whether it's worth it, but most of them are related to weather conditions.

What I would like to know is more from a performance/grip perspective combined with a tuned M235i/M240i making 400-500bhp. A friend of mine has a BMW M2 and is having trouble putting all of his power down on wet roads. I imagine xDrive can provide some benefits in this case, especially looking at the tire sizes on an M235i/M240i.

It will be my daily driver, but also intend (later on) to track the car or in a few years, after the warranty has expired, to throw a tune + some hardware mods on it and have it as designated track car.

Anybody who bought an xDrive for the ability to better put the power down? I am aware of the lack of an LSD off the shelf, so am planning to put the M performance LSD on right after buying one in any case.

A lot of the RWD shills here aren't putting down a lot of power. Their cars are stock, and 90% of them have 230i/228i. Honestly they could have all gotten Miatas, or better yet Cayman/Boxsters and would have been far happier. Don't worry about their use cases. The use case which you are describing is exactly where AWD shines. Perfect to get your zoomies fix stoplight to stoplight without worrying about wheel spin.

I have to admit that though you are likely to post better times with AWD cars on a track, RWD are great to toss around, but given the size/weight profile and powers up to 500whp, it all becomes a bit of a chore.

Also, drive both RWD and AWD M240i and see for yourself. Many will moan about understeer on the xDrive but it is not that bad, In fact the car makes up for it by pulling harrrrd up front.

[msej449]

I had a string of AWD 3.0L cars (Jaguar, BMW 3 Series, Audi) before my current RWD M235i.

The upside, I'd say is that the ~steer of an AWD is completely neutral i.e. neither oversteer or understeer. You can drift, even in an AWD (which I have done occassionally, due to driver error in the wet, but it's oddly undramatic - unless there's something in the way, obviously :-) THis suited me fine when I was doing a 30K+ business miles/year and really just wanted to get home safely in all weathers. But it was a bit, well, boring.

I would have made the M235i an xDrive but we don't get it in AWD form in the UK. So I had to go back to RWD. Fortunately, this coincided with a change of job and I was doing far less business miles in the car. It now goes on European skiing and summer touring road trips more than UK journeys.

I was apprehensive, but fortunately, I hapened to opt for a wet-biased winter tyre (Pirelli WInter Sottozero S3). This suits the wet winters we have here on the hilly UK South Coast (so lots of standing water in the hollows and on bends). It's particularly strong in terms of anti-hydroplaning. And is good for the snow we hit on (pre-covid) Alpine ski trips.

I've also done some wet weather track training at our local track, fortuitously in the Euro RWD 3.0L M140i. This has given me much more confidence in handling (or rather, adapting my driving to) bad wet-weather conditions.

Would I replace it with an xDrive if one was available? If I was doing as much business mileage as before, yes. But if I was using the car as and when I wanted to, probably not.

Oh, and I retro-fitted the BMW M Performance LSD, which helps a lot with the RWD stability and linear response.

[FancyDan]

In completely stock form and with the same transmission (auto), the RWD M235i/M240i will actually post a quicker lap time than the AWD, even with an open diff. This is mostly due to the fact that the xDrive version has ~120lbs more weight over the front axle and ~20 less wheel hp because of greater drivetrain loss. At stock power levels the AWD system just isn't that much of a benefit around corners to make up for those compromises.

Of course, this could all change if you start pushing up to 500 whp. It's hard to say, but I could definitely see the AWD version posting faster lap times at that level.

[XutvJet]

My M235 6MT with an LSD and around 370whp/380wtq can be a bit of a handful in the wet and I can't go full throttle in 1st or 2nd. However, it's very rare for me to drive aggressively in poor weather conditions.

FancyDan's post is solid.

For most all track driving, RWD with an LSD is the way to go and will be the quickest and fastest.

If you're into drag racing and 1/4 mile racing, Xdrive is the way to go. RWD will never be as quick as AWD in these cars unless the RWD is running slicks. From a 30mph roll or greater, the RWD should slowly walk the AWD traction benefits are gone. The Xdrive has more weight, more driveline losses, and a little less power to the ground. My non-sunroof M235 6MT is around 3400lbs with a 1/4 tank of fuel (no driver). A friend's loaded M235 Xdrive is just over 3,680lbs with 1/2 tank of fuel on the same scale. That's a big difference.

Be careful running 400wtq+ through the Xdrive. The transfers case can have issues running lots of torque and/or lots of launching. A transfer case replacement is around $2,500-3,000.

You can "turn off" the Xdrive and make the car RWD only with some tuning options. That's pretty cool, but at that point, you should have gone RWD, IMO.

[Klontje]

Thank you all for the great responses, they are super helpful. I have 2 test drives lined up for this weekend, an M235i RWD and an M240i xDrive (have driven the M240i RWD once on a skiing trip as a rental) so definitely going to compare drive train.

Solid point about the transfer case with higher power numbers. And I read about xDelete, but that would leave me with a RWD car that's 100kg heavier which is a bit of a mood point.

I have just gotten my racing license late last year and planning on buying an old e36 325i already prepped for tracking. Once I feel that I'll need more power (hopefully around the time my warranty expires) I was thinking to make the M235i/M240i track ready and sell the e36. This is honestly the biggest point why I would not want to go with xDrive.

Tough choice, but will post back with my experience after the test drives this weekend!

[XutvJet]

I'd get a Miata and outfit it for track work and use the 2 series for the powerful and sporty daily driver. I routinely work on my friend's NB generation Miatas. Those are real racecar chassis under the skin. The 2 series is not. Miatas are cheap and the aftermarket is abundant. Both my friend's Miatas have aftermarket turbos. Those cars are quite fast (not quite as fast as my M235) and handle really well. Miatas are cheap on expendables and BMWs are not. BMWs are also massively more expensive to fix if you wreck them.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Rick.Null

A lot of the RWD shills here aren't putting down a lot of power. Their cars are stock, and 90% of them have 230i/228i. Honestly they could have all gotten Miatas, or better yet Cayman/Boxsters and would have been far happier.

Regarding those first three sentences....

True
Probably True
False!

The Null Hypothesis is rejected and the Alternate is accepted by, at least, this shill. Those other cars are below size preference, below comfort preference, below cargo preference, and a PITA for ingress/egress. Drove my son's Cayman once and great to drive once my 6'2" was inside but not a vehicle I'd want to live with every day. He also bailed on it for an M2C.

In the OP's case, I agree with you about AWD being preferable for how he wants to drive.

[Rick.Null]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Regarding those first three sentences....

True
Probably True
False!

The Null Hypothesis is rejected and the Alternate is accepted by, at least, this shill. Those other cars are below size preference, below comfort preference, below cargo preference, and a PITA for ingress/egress. Drove my son's Cayman once and great to drive once my 6'2" was inside but not a vehicle I'd want to live with every day. He also bailed on it for an M2C.

In the OP's case, I agree with you about AWD being preferable for how he wants to drive.

I fully support shilling, believe it or not, passionate shilling is what makes the internet interesting but yes, you are absolutely right. For your height profile those Miatas and even the Cayman would be damn cramped.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Klontje

A friend of mine has a BMW M2 and is having trouble putting all of his power down on wet roads.

Even professional race cars on racing "wet tires" have the same issue, and it's not something that can be made to go away. Slippery surfaces are unforgiving when it comes to grip.

When it's particularly wet on the track, a race car will run a narrower tire with higher-than-normal inflation pressures. This shapes and reduces tread width, with the goal being to ensure that the center of the contact patch is on the roadway surface and not floating on top of or in the water. The same principle applies when using winter tires on a surface of snow.

It seems to me that you might find an AWD 2 Series would serve you well on the street when it has tires with very high wet grip (e.g., Michelin Pilot Sport 4S), and an RWD 2 Series would be a better car on the track due to its lighter weight, more flexibility when it comes to aftermarket front suspension components (based upon what I've read on this forum, I think this is the case, but I'm not totally sure), and its having fewer expensive components that you'll need to replace once they wear out or break.

BTW, I had an E36 race car with 318 RWHP that weighed 1,231 kg. My 1,560 kg RWD M240i has an LSD, 255mm Toyo R888R tires front and rear, a Dinan Elite V2 piggyback (+~10% more power), 2-way coilovers, etc. Compared to the E36 race car, the F22 street car feels very heavy and unresponsive.

It's not just that the F22 is slower (something that can always be fixed), but the comparative lack of responsiveness to all driver inputs is very pronounced. For track duty, I recommend holding on to your E36 race car until you're sure that you want to replace it with the F22 you're going to buy. My perspective is that on the track all of the fun is in the corners, starting with initial brake application and ending when track-out is complete. I believe your E36 will always be superior in the corners.

[Klontje]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I'd get a Miata and outfit it for track work and use the 2 series for the powerful and sporty daily driver.

Miata will never really work for me, I drove a bunch of cars on track, and Miata is something that doesn't work for me being 6'3"; hence the E36 325i, which I think is an awesome car for track use and relatively affordable to run and maintain as well.

Originally Posted by dradernh

It's not just that the F22 is slower (something that can always be fixed), but the comparative lack of responsiveness to all driver inputs is very pronounced. For track duty, I recommend holding on to your E36 race car until you're sure that you want to replace it with the F22 you're going to buy. My perspective is that on the track all of the fun is in the corners, starting with initial brake application and ending when track-out is complete. I believe your E36 will always be superior in the corners.

Awesome, thanks for these insight, will test drive both xDrive and RWD this weekend and decide based on road work. Maybe trade in the E36 325i in the long run for an E36 M3 if I feel like I need more speed

[MidwayMuller]

I drove both quite a bit before deciding on my xDrive coupe. It rains here (Seattle area) nearly every day this time of year, so wet traction is just as important as dry.

In the dry, the RWD version was more neutral and tossable in the corners- especially with Sport+ on. xDrive tends to understeer more, and I could feel the weight on quick direction changes. It's still a very sharp, capable car, but would probably have gone for RWD if it was drier here since I love attacking the twisties. Straight line felt pretty much the same between the two.

In wet weather, the difference was night and day. The RWD was much less planted and snappy, stability control cut in earlier and made the car feel almost neutered. xDrive just hooks up almost every time, even with standing water. The front drive wheel "bite" also helps a lot coming out of corners at higher speeds, unless the roads are really dead and you're OK with drifting into the oncoming lane.

I've never driven a tuned RWD car, but with BM3 stage 2 I can only imagine the difference now. My car still grips like it's on rails in both wet and dry, the perfect all-season car for me.

[Maynard]

I was new to AWD and loved it, so go with your feel from the test drives. As noted above, the driving dynamic is inherently like a balanced 4 wheel drift, without having to be going fast enough to put the tires into a true drift. Don't get this car now for anticipated track needs in 5 years - you'll probably want s/t different for that anyway. Xdrive was great on track for me; I tracked mine for 3 seasons, but at this point I'm starting to outgrow the stock, and there aren't many real mods for the xdrives. Plus I know I'll start to kill expensive stuff; the base cars really aren't beefy enough for extended tracking, but with a pad/fluid swap they are plenty competent to learn with or take out for a few weekends. I think the fact that the new M3/4 competitions will be AWD also speaks to the utility on track.

[Moflow]

Another Seattle person here who's used to driving in wet weather. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the M2 comp will light up the rear tires once boost hits in third gear if its wet out, depending on the pavement type. The M2 Comp has 265's out back on Pilot Super Sports. Car is stock, so about 400 lb-ft of torque at the crank. With the power level you're going for, the car won't be particularly quick in wet weather without AWD. It may still be fun (hell I definitely have fun with my car in the wet!) but its not a fast car under those conditions by any means.

[Klontje]

In the past I owned an Audi S3 Quattro 2001 (Haldex) and yesterday sold my Mini Cooper S R53. This just for reference.

I've driven 4 cars this past weekend all being automatic with the weather being 'damp':

Audi RS5 2014 with Quattro sport differential (I know I'm cursing)
BMW M240i xDrive
BMW M240i RWD
BMW M235i

Audi rules the AWD space. The xDrive just can't compete with the torque vectoring + LSD of the Audi. I was able to throw the Audi into a power drift much more controlled than the xDrive. This will most likely be due to the Diffs, but for me the xDrive wasn't cutting it. Also was expecting the size and weight difference to pull me more towards the BMW compared to the 400 pound heavier Audi.

M240i RWD was loads of fun as well but is missing the exterior looks. I haven't decided yet, but rather adding a car to my shortlist: BMW M4. Which in the European market has dropped in price to the point where it's in the same league as a 2014 RS5 <60k miles, M240i 2017 <30k miles. Surprisingly an M4 prices are below those of M2's with <60k miles.

So will test drive an M4 soon to be able to compare that to the the RS5 and the M240i.

From an AWD perspective xDrive wasn't cutting it for me and felt like the diff was constantly moving power around while doing hard rounds at a roundabout. This was with all nannies turned off and it felt very unnatural/uncontrollable.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Klontje

In the past I owned an Audi S3 Quattro 2001 (Haldex) and yesterday sold my Mini Cooper S R53. This just for reference.

I've driven 4 cars this past weekend all being automatic with the weather being 'damp':

Audi RS5 2014 with Quattro sport differential (I know I'm cursing)
BMW M240i xDrive
BMW M240i RWD
BMW M235i

Audi rules the AWD space. The xDrive just can't compete with the torque vectoring + LSD of the Audi. I was able to throw the Audi into a power drift much more controlled than the xDrive. This will most likely be due to the Diffs, but for me the xDrive wasn't cutting it. Also was expecting the size and weight difference to pull me more towards the BMW compared to the 400 pound heavier Audi.

M240i RWD was loads of fun as well but is missing the exterior looks. I haven't decided yet, but rather adding a car to my shortlist: BMW M4. Which in the European market has dropped in price to the point where it's in the same league as a 2014 RS5 <60k miles, M240i 2017 <30k miles. Surprisingly an M4 prices are below those of M2's with <60k miles.

So will test drive an M4 soon to be able to compare that to the the RS5 and the M240i.

From an AWD perspective xDrive wasn't cutting it for me and felt like the diff was constantly moving power around while doing hard rounds at a roundabout. This was with all nannies turned off and it felt very unnatural/uncontrollable.

Thorough process and interesting comments!
Good luck with your final decision and enjoy!
Keep in mind (at least from my experience, which I won't do again!), that an Audi comes with an extra benefit....a new first-name-basis best friend...the Service Manager!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Klontje

M240i RWD...is missing the exterior looks.

An M240 is a sleeper in today's performance market; just an average BMW coupe that does a good job getting groceries and driving to work and back. Nobody seems to notice them.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by dradernh

An M240 is a sleeper in today's performance market; just an average BMW coupe that does a good job getting groceries and driving to work and back. Nobody seems to notice them.

Maybe it's the color because I find certain colors on the 2 series to not be flattering. I've owned my Mineral white M235 since Feb 2016 and owners in late model Mustangs, Camaros, VW GTI/Rs, Focus ST/RSs, certain Audis, EVOs, WRXs, and 335s routinely want to race or show me what their car can do. My M235 has wheels that look similar to an M2's, the car is slightly lowered, the reflectors lightly smoked, and my exhaust, while not crazy loud, doesn't sound stock. I don't entice these guys either. I've owned a lot of performance cars over the decades and have never had one that draws so much attention, especially from the Mustang/Focus and VW crowd.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Maybe it's the color because I find certain colors on the 2 series to not be flattering. I've owned my Mineral white M235 since Feb 2016 and owners in late model Mustangs, Camaros, VW GTI/Rs, Focus ST/RSs, certain Audis, EVOs, WRXs, and 335s routinely want to race or show me what their car can do. My M235 has wheels that look similar to an M2's, the car is slightly lowered, the reflectors lightly smoked, and my exhaust, while not crazy loud, doesn't sound stock. I don't entice these guys either. I've owned a lot of performance cars over the decades and have never had one that draws so much attention, especially from the Mustang/Focus and VW crowd.

I've lived in and spent time in parts of the country where what you're describing is routine. This side of the Midwest is dead quiet in that regard, though.

[insanedc]

To be honest, I don't find the Xdrive in this car to be sporty at all. I've been told that it is rear-biased, but that's not the case in my 235. It feels 50/50 and I find it annoying. My 19 A5 Quattro (w/ sport) feels much better and rear-biased. The 235 suffers from significant understeer unless you turn off all of the safety stuff.

The suspension isn't all that well sorted (kind of stiff, but with fairly significant body roll) and under tired from the factory. The car also drives heavy, if that makes sense. I bought the Xdrive because I couldn't find a car with LSD when I was looking.

Would I recommend buying one? Honestly, not really. If you are looking for sporty driving, find one with a LSD. I like the traction of Xdrive, but I don't find it very engaging. The engine and trans save the driving experience (just). When I'm going to tackle some very curvy roads, I take the A5.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by insanedc

To be honest, I don't find the Xdrive in this car to be sporty at all. I've been told that it is rear-biased, but that's not the case in my 235. It feels 50/50 and I find it annoying. My 19 A5 Quattro (w/ sport) feels much better and rear-biased. The 235 suffers from significant understeer unless you turn off all of the safety stuff.

The suspension isn't all that well sorted (kind of stiff, but with fairly significant body roll) and under tired from the factory. The car also drives heavy, if that makes sense. I bought the Xdrive because I couldn't find a car with LSD when I was looking.

Would I recommend buying one? Honestly, not really. If you are looking for sporty driving, find one with a LSD. I like the traction of Xdrive, but I don't find it very engaging. The engine and trans save the driving experience (just). When I'm going to tackle some very curvy roads, I take the A5.

xDrive is a 60/40 split, so while rear-biased, it is close to 50/50. As for "suffering" from understeer with the nanny's on, that's the nanny's preventing oversteer in favor of understeer, as an understeer is much safer than oversteer. Turn the nanny's off and that issue goes away. Just be prepared to drive the car rather than letting the nanny's save you.

[insanedc]

Originally Posted by harma24

xDrive is a 60/40 split, so while rear-biased, it is close to 50/50. As for "suffering" from understeer with the nanny's on, that's the nanny's preventing oversteer in favor of understeer, as an understeer is much safer than oversteer. Turn the nanny's off and that issue goes away. Just be prepared to drive the car rather than letting the nanny's save you.

It certainly doesn't feel 60/40 regardless of what the spec sheet says. The understeer in this car is significantly worse than Audi which is known (infamous) for understeer. My point here is that they must be disabled to have any fun in the car. Otherwise, it's an understeering mess.

Bottom line, the car just isn't well sorted. Maybe the 435/440 is better. I don't know. The A5 certainly is, without question.