[overcoil]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

This article is strange because I'm not aware of any fueling station that has the capability to inject additives into the fuel stream. That process is typically done at the fuel terminal while loading the tanker truck.

Was wondering about that also. (always need to be weary about stuff you read on the internet) I'd seen pics of storage tanks and the remote containers and pipes that add the detergents. Unless the over dispensing of the detergent was done at the terminal and that is the equipment failure the spokesman is referring to ? or Do local stations storage tanks ever get emptied cleaned and conditioned as a maintenance protocol ?

My local Shell station a few years back had a batch of bad gas and had to reimburse for the damage. And I think with that Shell station the tanks were newish maybe within six-years old or newer - but I'm not certain and it could have been a water leak issue from topside.

[Isoleucine]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

This article is strange because I'm not aware of any fueling station that has the capability to inject additives into the fuel stream. That process is typically done at the fuel terminal while loading the tanker truck.

You've never been to a gas station with those annoying "Additech" screens next to the pump loudly trying to convince you to pay $10-30 to include their additive package in the gas you're pumping? At least around me virtually every grocery store fuel pump has them, and some quality gas stations have also added them.

It's not like it's a particularly complicated process to mix an additive in with the rest of the fuel, particularly if it's just an extra detergent rather than an octane booster that you would want to be more evenly mixed to prevent pre-detonation. With detergents it matters a whole lot less if there's periodic "hot spots" or "cold spots" of concentration because all of the detergent is still going through the injectors in the end anyways, and the specific amount per engine cycle is relatively unimportant.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Isoleucine

You've never been to a gas station with those annoying "Additech" screens next to the pump loudly trying to convince you to pay $10-30 to include their additive package in the gas you're pumping? At least around me virtually every grocery store fuel pump has them, and some quality gas stations have also added them.

According to Additech's website, it has yet to reach this part of the Midwest:

https://www.additech.com/store-locator.

I use Shell V-Power, but I'll keep an eye out so I avoid Additech.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

This article is strange because I'm not aware of any fueling station that has the capability to inject additives into the fuel stream. That process is typically done at the fuel terminal while loading the tanker truck.

I showed the article to my brother, who used to be a gasoline delivery tanker driver, and he said we are probably all just incorrectly assuming the equipment failure the store manager mentioned happened at the store rather than the terminal.

[Rick.Null]

Costco is not perfect. Start noticing how hard they have been cutting their corners recently. It reflects in everything they have been doing from slimming down inventory to swapping out lore premium brands for lesser ones (notice the wipes? They stopped making Tencel ones right before the pandemic. Also look at their dry fruits selection; they have drastically cut down the Kirkland brand selections and outsourced a good deal of it etc etc. and the quality is NIGHT AND DAY; I can provide numerous examples which materialized over the last 12 months, starting from right before pandemic).

The pandemic was also a bonanza for Costco to sell less for more because c0vId19

Don't trust Costco too blindly, they are going through a change, and for the worse.

[morphomeman]

The Top Tier designation is monitored by an outside body. So, unless you are ascribing Volkswagen-level corporate mendacity to Costco, I would not correlate the quality of their dried fruit brands with that of their gasoline.
For what it's worth, Costco, alone among big box stores, pays their employees a living wage.

[Maynard]

"Volkswagen-level corporate mendacity" is the relative equivalent of a serial jaywalker. If you think fudging some EPA tests is the worst it gets in corporate dirty deeds you are living in a fantasy world.

[MarcoZandrini]

Shell 93 and nothing else.

[SteveinArizona]

I see two possibilities in this stream. One: the dealership is pulling some kind of crap and look for another dealership if that is possible; or, as noted above, perhaps the OP or his wife put 87 into the car by accident.

Costco gas is as noted top tier. Also, because they fill so many car tanks (at least in my area) that they get fresh deliveries of gas several times a day. So the tanks are always fresh.

[Rick.Null]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I see two possibilities in this stream. One: the dealership is pulling some kind of crap and look for another dealership if that is possible; or, as noted above, perhaps the OP or his wife put 87 into the car by accident.

Costco gas is as noted top tier. Also, because they fill so many car tanks (at least in my area) that they get fresh deliveries of gas several times a day. So the tanks are always fresh.

Or Costco could be cutting corners; they have been shamelessly doing so for quite some time. Because COVID. Fuck them.

P.s. guys I hate Costco these days haha. Don't mind me.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Isoleucine

You've never been to a gas station with those annoying "Additech" screens next to the pump loudly trying to convince you to pay $10-30 to include their additive package in the gas you're pumping? At least around me virtually every grocery store fuel pump has them, and some quality gas stations have also added them.

We don't have the Additech additive pumps in Kansas or Missouri. Also, the fuel brands that use Additech pumps are not what I'd consider quality brands. It might be a good idea to use the additive package I don't purchase fuel from grocery stores. I prefer to stick to companies that are in the business of making and selling fuel.

[Toolboss]

I was recently at Costco last week and was down to an 1/8th tank and was struggling a little with the decision. My 228xi fuel tank isn't large ~13 gal. and it frequently needs a fill up. Lately I've been alternating between Costco and Shell though based on where I'm at when I need a fill up.

Roundel Tech Talk recommends Shell 93 V-Power (as the best of the bad gas in the US). So I try to use when I can but hard to justify the time & added cost if one isn't near by when I need a fill up.

[shark715]

I don't believe for a second that Shell gasoline is any better or worse than Costco or any other Top Tier fuel. Would love to see proof of this claim.

[morphomeman]

This is a perennial problem, people making baseless claims with no evidence. Take the phrase "Bad gas in the US", for example. Is there any basis for the assertion that US gas is bad? Is it worse than in other places? It is certainly a lot cheaper than pretty much anywhere else, and that is a real fact.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

This is a perennial problem, people making baseless claims with no evidence. Take the phrase "Bad gas in the US", for example. Is there any basis for the assertion that US gas is bad? Is it worse than in other places? It is certainly a lot cheaper than pretty much anywhere else, and that is a real fact.

Looks like we're 31st cheapest with the Venezuelans leading the charge at $0.076 per US gallon. It's hard to find gasoline in that country, but at least the price is pretty terrific when you do.

Data source: https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/V...soline_prices/. It's easier to compare prices after changing the measure to US Gallon and the currency to U.S. Dollar.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

This is a perennial problem, people making baseless claims with no evidence. Take the phrase "Bad gas in the US", for example. Is there any basis for the assertion that US gas is bad? Is it worse than in other places? It is certainly a lot cheaper than pretty much anywhere else, and that is a real fact.

isn't U.S. gas E-10, E-15 ten and fifteen percent Ethanol as compared to E-5 in Europe (5% Ethanol ) .

Do the petrol taxes in Continental Europe provide better road infrastructure therefore potentially less car maintenance?

I'm genuinely asking.

[msej449]

@ScottSinger In the UK the 65% tax on petrol just goes into the general tax pot. It's an understandable source of complaint from most motorists that their petrol tax and annual car road tax (£260 for my M235i) don't directly equate to money spent on road infrastructure. Fuel tax revenues were around £28 billion last year, versus £11bn spent on roads. One problem for Government is of course that as people switch to more efficient vehichles, and especially to electricity, the fuel tax income reduces.

The government argument against shifting tax from petrol to something else is that it wouldn't be any more reasonable and any less subject to intrinsic randomness. For example, the UK doesn't have a special tax on car purchase, unlike some European countries.

A typical, and reasonable, Government response to any call to reduce petrol tax (or to spend more of the £17bn 'surplus' on roads) is 'OK given you don't have to pay anything to see a GP, be treated in an ER, have a child, or an operation, or pay for long-term medication and treatment for a chronic disease, would you rather pay for any of those instead?'.

As a % of GDP spent on infrastructure, the UK = 0.92% compared to the USA's 0.52%. Switzerland spends 1.17% (perhaps it's all those terrific tunnels) and China a whopping 5.57% (but then they have a lot to make up, I guess).

[morphomeman]

Wow, data!! I am impressed. The high ethanol content of US fuel is due largely to the corn lobby, which may be even more powerful than the gun lobby, especially since the implosion of the NRA.
The European Union has its own wacko agricultural subsidies, for the same political reasons, but for different products. I haven't checked lately, but there was this huge butter mountain years ago, frozen somewhere.
Quebec is famous for its maple syrup surplus.
It's always something!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

Quebec is famous for its maple syrup surplus.

And Vermont maple syrup "producers" are grateful for it, too!

[RvR]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

isn't U.S. gas E-10, E-15 ten and fifteen percent Ethanol as compared to E-5 in Europe (5% Ethanol ) .

Do the petrol taxes in Continental Europe provide better road infrastructure therefore potentially less car maintenance?

I'm genuinely asking.

All the German VPower I bought while on ED was E5. The mid-grade might have been E10, I'm not sure as I wasn't going to buy any, hence I didn't pay much attention.

I can say the VPower ran better than what the BMW Welt put in it. I forgot to ask what they used. My *guess* would be 95 RON. A bummer trivia note, you can't fill your ED car up with 100 VPower and turn it in, because shipping requirements means they want it 1/3 of a tank full, no more. If you bring it in with more than that, they'll siphon the excess.

A note on RON vs. MON. You can read the long Wikipedia details, but in essence, RON (or ROZ if in Germany), research octane number is a best-case measure in a single cylinder test engine with no load. MON is a test engine with load, and is a much better performance indicator. MON doesn't get used that much -- a less marketable number?

In the U.S., we use a mean average of RON and MON, for the AKI, anti-knock index. The rest of the world uses RON. There is generally about a 4 to 5 point difference between AKI and RON.

So some of the 'U.S. has bad gas' theme stems from not understanding the measures.

Note back in the Seventies, when Formula 1 first started venturing into the Eastern Block, e.g., Hungarian GP, they found a HUGE difference between RON and MON. So while it was called '99' octane or whatever, it performed poorly. So it's possible to have a great-looking RON number and lame MON number leading to poor performance. F1 tightened up the regs on that.

While we're on trivia, I remember reading about in the Eighties, BMW located some WW II Luftwaffe research papers on various fuel mixtures they tried, and that lead to the 'witches' brew' fuels the mid-80s F1 turbo cars ran, including 'qualifying' fuel that if you left the cap off a can for too long, it would go 'off performance.' Bernie and the FIA outlawed such volatile fuels, and told the suppliers if they didn't get uniform and closer to road fuel, he'd require teams to fill their dispensers at the local franchise outlets near the track.

On average, the EU highest grade fuels are higher octane than the best U.S. street fuels. While I haven't tested them, I would say 2-4 AKI points higher. You are also paying a lot more, some of that is the octane, most of that are the taxes.

We'd need someone familiar with the particulars, but not only are their more road use taxes in Germany, their version of sales tax is also 19% vs. whatever your state charges. What it's used for, yes, some goes to roads, but I believe a lot goes to public transportation, notably rail. I don't think the U.S. road tax goes to public transport, it just gets siphoned off (stolen, mis-appropriated, choose your term) for a myriad of things, because it's a big pot of money irresistible to legislatures.

COSTCO does do their additives differently, I remember seeing a graphic on Bob is the Oil Guy about how they inject a detergent at the pump built for them from one of the specialty petroleum companies.

BITOG has many interesting discussions on the topic, but it's a deep rabbit hole to go down. There are also some odd units involved, such as additives get measured by quantity per 1,000 lb. of base stock. If I did the math right, the active additives are amazingly small, e.g., 14 ounces per 1,000 lb. of gasoline, essentially a trio of soda pop cans' worth per ~150 gallons.

Most all the gasoline we buy comes from two grades of base clear stock, either lower or higher octane, higher in the case of guys buying for the German cars. The amount of "Shell" or "BP" in there is fractionally small.

The concentration does make a huge difference though. The same additive can go from avoided gum to really cleaning valves in port-injected engines, based on how much is used. Going from a minimum ability to produce effects to really cleaning up only takes around 33% more additive.

Mike Miller of BMWCCA really does prefer VPower to all other fuels. My heartburn with it is in my area, VPower is all ethanol-laced. If you're burning it right away, as when on trips (remember those?), it shouldn't matter at all. Sitting in the tank all winter long, no way do I want ethanol in there.

Yes, the main reason we have so much ethanol in the U.S. is due to the corn lobby's efforts getting it into legislation.

RvR

[shark715]

Originally Posted by RvR

COSTCO does do their additives differently, I remember seeing a graphic on Bob is the Oil Guy about how they inject a detergent at the pump built for them from one of the specialty petroleum companies.

Could you direct us to this. I have long enjoyed his website but can't find what you are referring to. Did a search on his website on "Costco" but no results, thanks.

[RvR]

Originally Posted by shark715

Could you direct us to this. I have long enjoyed his website but can't find what you are referring to. Did a search on his website on "Costco" but no results, thanks.

It was linked from BITOG, and here it is:

https://www.neiwpcc.org/tanks2013old...13_Tuesday.pdf

It came from an industry presentation, the details start about page 8.

Lubrizol makes the additive, named UltraZol 9888.

Another post says:

"The ratio is aprox 4.97 Gallons of Clean Power Additive to 13,000 of fuel. The additive is very sticky. It isn't thick like syrup, however it is thicker than say some bottled additive from the store."

These additives are amazingly concentrated.