[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by dradernh

My wife and I are over 70, so we've been following the advice in your last sentence since late last March. Fortunately, doing so has made little difference to us.

We're in good health and reasonably fit, so we can imagine that we might survive a case of Covid-19. What concerns us just as much, however, are the accounts of the 'long-haulers' like this physician: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/w...ng-hauler.html, and these young people: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/w...ng-hauler.html.

Despite not knowing the number or percentage of 'long-haulers' that are out there (data that may take years to assemble), our takeaway is that this disease is to be avoided at all costs, no matter who you are.

It certainly is a real risk. Most friends and families I know have had at least one person in each of their households get COVID, especially in the last two months. None are long-haulers, though one did die (87, in a nursing home, very poor health prior to COVID).

US COVID cases are grossly under reported. Most experts put the true number at 8 to 12 times of reported cases. That means as of yesterday, we're looking at around 208M to 312M cases in the US. That would mean around 65% to 98% of the US population has had it. I think that number is closer to around 60-65% given that 80%+ of the country are wearing masks in public and being fairly careful, thus reducing the potential to catch the virus. There are also those that are susceptible to getting it twice. If someone in your household gets it, you're very likely getting it as I don't know anyone that wears masks while at home with their family. I also know tons of people that were extremely careful, hardly even went out, yet still got it. That's a head scratcher.

The US case numbers are plummeting rapidly and the vaccine isn't doing this. I think it's very likely the result of the virus simply running out of hosts as the country is approaching natural herd immunity. The virus is so effective at spreading, but the flip side is it could burn itself out quickly.

As for the COVID "variants". I firmly believe those variants were in the US in early fall (possibly late summer) and are largely responsible for the explosive growth we saw starting in late October/November. The UK, Germany, and many other countries in the EU are now going through what we have for the past 3 months. They're just going through it quicker because they are singular countries vs the US, a bunch of state which are essentially like countries in the EU.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by dradernh

My wife and I are over 70, so we've been following the advice in your last sentence since late last March. Fortunately, doing so has made little difference to us.

Describes me too. I'm not minding the social isolation at all. For the first time in my life, being an introvert is a major social advantage!

Regarding Sportstick's elaborate precautions to avoid the outside of a box of takeout, I would do the same. Trouble is, it ignores the inside of the box and the food within it. If the outside is contaminated, there's a good chance the inside is as well. For this reason, we have not eaten any food prepared by others since March. Nor have we been in any building, except for essential medical appointments. It's amazing how much you can order online, and how easy it is to get by without what you can't.

It's all about risk vs reward. For me the reward of running at 8 tenths on a winding mountain road is worth the risk. Shopping in person and eating restaurant food is not worth the risk, even if it's much smaller.

[leftoverture]

Originally Posted by msej449

Man, no wonder the US has had 419,000 people dying of Covid. Almost as bad as our Chancellor's ingenious 'Eat Out to Help Out' subsidy and subsequent highest death rate per capita in the World.

No.... you don't get to say something like that to me. You got no freaking idea. None.

[morphomeman]

What's with all the wiping?
We have known for months that COVID is almost entirely airborne, unlike many other viruses. Wiping down has little if any effect.
Save your efforts for not breathing on others or being breathed on. That's where the action is. Wear a mask, or even two?
I am a lunatic about picking up pizza, always have been. First I preheat the oven. Then I call the pizza place. I preheat the passenger seat on the way. I also always carry a small blanket in the car. I time my arrival to when the pizza is just out of the oven. I then place the pizza on the blanket on the seat, with a small wedge under it, then cover it with the rest of the blanket. It's about 10 minutes to get home. If all goes well, by the time I get home, the pizza is just cool enough to eat without burning my mouth. I turn off the oven. Everything but the first round of slices goes in the turned-off oven.
So yes, I am a pizza fanatic. Outside of the New York area, New Haven, Naples, and Salerno, I pretty much won't touch the stuff. Don't even get me started on Chicago, Detroit, or any other heathen places of worship.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

So yes, I am a pizza fanatic. Outside of the New York area, New Haven, Naples, and Salerno, I pretty much won't touch the stuff.

Tommaso's in San Francisco; drop in for Neapolitan pizza if you're ever in The City, you just might like it: https://www.tommasos.com/our-story. No affiliation.

[XutvJet]

How do products get on the shelves at a store, in the Amazon cardboard box, the cut meat into the plastic packaging, the pizza in the box? How many ungloved hands touched the food you just bought from a restaurant? The amount of direct human interaction with the things you buy, bring into your home, etc. is far greater than most would ever believe or want to believe. This virus is without a doubt a germaphobes worst-case scenario.

Hey, at least the flu is literally non-existent in the US this season per the CDC. I'm not sure why the experts and media were fearing a COVID/flu double whammy. If everyone is masked up, distancing, and/or locked up, there will be no flu. There will be 30k-60k fewer flu deaths this flu season which is some much needed positive news.

[leftoverture]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

So yes, I am a pizza fanatic. Outside of the New York area, New Haven, Naples, and Salerno, I pretty much won't touch the stuff. Don't even get me started on Chicago, Detroit, or any other heathen places of worship.

Wow. A true pizza afficionado. I appreciate that. I just wish you could have sampled a slice from Beek's "King of Pizza" in St. Louis Park, MN before they closed for good. I think you would have found them worthy.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by morphomeman

What's with all the wiping?
We have known for months that COVID is almost entirely airborne, unlike many other viruses. Wiping down has little if any effect.
Save your efforts for not breathing on others or being breathed on. That's where the action is. Wear a mask, or even two?
So yes, I am a pizza fanatic. Outside of the New York area, New Haven, Naples, and Salerno, I pretty much won't touch the stuff. Don't even get me started on Chicago, Detroit, or any other heathen places of worship.

Any conversation that turns to pizza is usually an improvement over whatever came before. But, just before we leave COVID, I agree that transmission through surface contact is a low risk, but not no risk. Unlike Federal agencies, I am not bound to this degree on cost/benefit, and can expend more cost for minimal, although incremental, benefit. The virus is predominantly airborne and not through food, but if packages of unknown prior contact present some risk above none that I can reduce with wiping, I am willing and able to do that to prevent a cascade of cross-contamination that ends with an unconscious touch of an eye, ear, face, etc. For a few minutes and the price of some wipes, why not get that last few percentage points?

I am reminded about so-called "low risk" from a recent medical procedure. I had much of an ingrown large toenail removed. Podiatrist told me I was all set and would have no further issues. The data shows about 98% need no future revision procedure. Of course, you know where this is heading. About 3 months later, toe is red, painful, and swollen again. Despite the "killer" chemicals on the nail matrix, it was regrowing...a true "2%-er". I will continue to wipe packages until my second vaccine shot reduces the potential outcome to a less lethal level.

Anyway, back to pizza. I used to think one couldn't find good pizza west of the Hudson. Then, I moved the border to the East River, as many Manhattan places failed to keep up with DiFara or DelMar in Brooklyn. The first and truest test of pizza is the cantilever. If it can't do what you see in the photo, it's either underdone or oversauced/overcheesed. I also don't know how the heck the folks in Illinois or Michigan (where I lived for 30+ years) are considering what they do as "pizza". A loaf of bread with cheese and sauce may taste ok, but it's not pizza. Have to remember not to buy a car there...could wind up with a tractor...."Hey, it has 4 wheels, a motor, and a steering wheel!" Don't even get me started on cheesecake if it doesn't start with "Junior's"...

There are actually some individual places that live up to their names....Tomatoes Apizza and Crispelli's in Oakland County, Michigan get it. There's a place out here in the southwest run by a family from "the island" (Long Island, NY for those not familiar) who also know the real thing. Other cities may have their one or two places (run by east coast immigrants?) that also understand the difference.

When the pizza comes out of the oven, we are close enough that it hits our table in under five minutes...still hot enough to not need reheating (which would be done with a frying pan, not an oven, to maintain crust crispness). A well balanced diet includes at least one full pie per week...minimum.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by leftoverture

No.... you don't get to say something like that to me. You got no freaking idea. None.

The truth hurts too much?

Or maybe you're an "alternate facts" type?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The very previously-healthy 22 year old in our extended family would have fit that same description had he survived COVID and the apparent "cytokinen storm" that resulted in his early loss. Those characteristics you list are not relevant to the chance of this outcome.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7527296/

Very true, real, sad, and confusing, but Cytokinen storm is extremely rare with COVID. A Cytokinen storm can also be induced by the flu too. Lots of seemingly healthy and very fit people die from the flu every year. Rare? Yep, but it happens to thousands across the globe as part of the hundreds of thousands of flu deaths every year.

Life is a risky thing. Everything is full of risk and you have to weigh what your risk tolerance is. A terrible health choice on so many levels, but pizza does sound very good right now !

[leftoverture]

Originally Posted by albertw

The truth hurts too much?

Or maybe you're an "alternate facts" type?

Or maybe you are just st&p#d.

People should know a little something about a person before they shoot their mouths off.

[XutvJet]

T minus 10 minutes until thread closure.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

T minus 10 minutes until thread closure.

Unfortunate when threads devolve like this....and with the best pizza portrait ever on 2Addicts!

[Finn Germai-Yaz]

I thought we were discussing how to store / transport food in our vehicles not about COVID.

What is the best way to store / transport a box of donuts?

[KennyFSU]

I use hooks that attach behind the front headrests and place most of my bagged food/groceries on them, prevents them from tipping over.

eBay had them, very cheap.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by nawfoo

What is the best way to store / transport a box of donuts?

They shouldn't last that long to make it home...

[Rick.Null]

https://www.amazon.com/CleverMade-Co...th=1&psc=1

You can also get one with solid walls as well

Quite possibly the best thing for transporting foods and groceries is this guy:

https://www.amazon.com/Mymazn-Organi...8&sr=8-122

[albertw]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Unfortunate when threads devolve like this....and with the best pizza portrait ever on 2Addicts!

You're right. My bad.

It wasn't the egregious logical error in leftoverture's first post that provoked me. I read it prior to msej449's gentle criticism of the error, and chose to ignore it. It was his personal attack on msej449 that provoked me, but it was up to msej449 to defend himself if he thought it was worthwhile, and I apologize to the forum for my pointless intervention.

[leftoverture]

Originally Posted by albertw

You're right. My bad.

It wasn't the egregious logical error in leftoverture's first post that provoked me. I read it prior to msej449's gentle criticism of the error, and chose to ignore it. It was his personal attack on msej449 that provoked me, but it was up to msej449 to defend himself if he thought it was worthwhile, and I apologize to the forum for my pointless intervention.

Your "apology" sounds like an escalation to me. But I choose not to respond...you are out of line. Let's leave it at that.

[cristo]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

US COVID cases are grossly under reported. Most experts put the true number at 8 to 12 times of reported cases. That means as of yesterday, we're looking at around 208M to 312M cases in the US. That would mean around 65% to 98% of the US population has had it. I think that number is closer to around 60-65% given that 80%+ of the country are wearing masks in public and being fairly careful, thus reducing the potential to catch the virus. There are also those that are susceptible to getting it twice. If someone in your household gets it, you're very likely getting it as I don't know anyone that wears masks while at home with their family. I also know tons of people that were extremely careful, hardly even went out, yet still got it. That's a head scratcher.

The US case numbers are plummeting rapidly and the vaccine isn't doing this. I think it's very likely the result of the virus simply running out of hosts as the country is approaching natural herd immunity. The virus is so effective at spreading, but the flip side is it could burn itself out quickly.

Current best estimates on the percentage of
the US population that has had COVID (including
asymptomatic and unreported cases) based on
antibody testing of population samples is actually
about 16%. We’re still very very far from herd
immunity and still very much in deep trouble.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by cristo

Current best estimates on the percentage of
the US population that has had COVID (including
asymptomatic and unreported cases) based on
antibody testing of population samples is actually
about 16%. We’re still very very far from herd
immunity and still very much in deep trouble.

I disagree. The CDC and other experts were saying months ago that data suggested that true COVID cases in the US were underreported by about 8 to 12 times given that fact that a 40% to 50% of the cases asymptomatic and a vast majority very minor symptoms that people can't tell if it's a slight cold or COVID. Many of my 12 y/o daughters friends and their siblings and parents have gotten COVID in the past 6 weeks or so. Most were asymptomatic, a few had cold symptoms, and a couple of the parents had flu symptoms. In my county in the Kansas City metro, COVID rates have fallen nearly 50% over the past 2 weeks since its high in early November. Why? Because the virus is running out of hosts. Same thing is happening nation wide. COVID burns fast and it burns quick.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I disagree. The CDC and other experts were saying months ago that data suggested that true COVID cases in the US were underreported by about 8 to 12 times given that fact that a 40% to 50% of the cases asymptomatic and a vast majority very minor symptoms that people can't tell if it's a slight cold or COVID. Many of my 12 y/o daughters friends and their siblings and parents have gotten COVID in the past 6 weeks or so. Most were asymptomatic, a few had cold symptoms, and a couple of the parents had flu symptoms. In my county in the Kansas City metro, COVID rates have fallen nearly 50% over the past 2 weeks since its high in early November. Why? Because the virus is running out of hosts. Same thing is happening nation wide. COVID burns fast and it burns quick.

The CDC currently estimates for true infection rate as of the end of Dec was 83.1 million (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...es/burden.html), with a population of 328 million, that means 25% of the US population has been infected so far. The other effect is that if the current peak has been reached in the US (infection peak seems to have been reached a few weeks ago, death peak lags and is currently close to peak), then unfortunately the death rate is fairly symmetric, so there are likely to be another 200,000 deaths until this peak is over.