[Denk]

I had an M240i xdrive and was impressed! I was coming from an e92 M3 and was hesitant on awd but with the rear drive bias of xdrive it still gave that satisfying kick in the ass when punched. I put Michelin AS3+'s on her and had year round fun in the PNW. If I lived in a area that didn't see any snow I'd save some money and just skip xdrive...same goes for drifting.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

There's no disadvantage with the Xdrive other than the inability to have a stick-shift on the 2 series. This is still only available on the 4 series.

Otherwise they are both the same. Weight distribution is almost 50/50 and offsets the added so called weight. Having Xdrive you can disable DSC and enjoy the same loss of traction the non X has. But you can't enjoy AWD if your don't have Xdrive.

As for acceleration, the Xdrive is slightly quicker, lol. Not that .2 sec is going to make a world of difference.

Is funny, I was so on the fence between to X or not X. Again, stick was the main point of difference. And as much as I love stick, I opted for Xdrive as I think it's an better option. Yeah, I've driven forever rear wheel drive with garbage non-wonter tires and done alright. Knowing how to drive is an important ingredient, lol. But the Xdrive is a major advantage with respect to traction, wet, dry or snow. As for comfort, it's a short wheelbase coup, the models won't have much of a difference with the adaptive suspension, braking, etc.

Regards

I get your enthusiasm, but think that is an overreach. Clearly, there are additional costs for purchase and maintenance/repair. The combined effect of the weight over the front wheels and the additional mechanicals take a compromised electronic steering system and deteriorate the feel even further. Of course, one can get used to this, but if you drive back-to-back, the different feel of the rwd car is clear to many.

While we're at it, this keeps coming up. Vehicles and powertrain systems, such as XDrive don't have or add traction. They can't. They never touch the ground. Traction is specifically at the contact patch; tires have traction. Xdrive just powers two more tires, and if they have traction, that can help get a car moving, but does nothing for stopping/turning in a winter emergency maneuver. Glad you've been ok so far, but putting four dedicated winter tires on a rear wheel drive car will increase both traction and safety at all four corners for braking/turning far more than having XDrive on all seasons, proven in videos over and over.

One other downside of Xdrive. You can't install the mod of upfitting the M2 lower control arms, which really help improve steering responsiveness of the non-M 2 Series cars.

[Rocky58]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I get your enthusiasm, but think that is an overreach. Clearly, there are additional costs for purchase and maintenance/repair. The combined effect of the weight over the front wheels and the additional mechanicals take a compromised electronic steering system and deteriorate the feel even further. Of course, one can get used to this, but if you drive back-to-back, the different feel of the rwd car is clear to many.

While we're at it, this keeps coming up. Vehicles and powertrain systems, such as XDrive don't have or add traction. They can't. They never touch the ground. Traction is specifically at the contact patch; tires have traction. Xdrive just powers two more tires, and if they have traction, that can help get a car moving, but does nothing for stopping/turning in a winter emergency maneuver. Glad you've been ok so far, but putting four dedicated winter tires on a rear wheel drive car will increase both traction and safety at all four corners for braking/turning far more than having XDrive on all seasons, proven in videos over and over.

One other downside of Xdrive. You can't install the mod of upfitting the M2 lower control arms, which really help improve steering responsiveness of the non-M 2 Series cars.

I agree with all this. I test drove the coupe and the convertible. And I drove several of the 2's at a BMW event and finally chose the convertible m240. But I had never driven the M240xi- there were none to test drive at the dealer I was at in CA. There is clearly a difference to me. The AWD just is not as "tossable", as the Brits say. YMMV. But it is nice knowing that I can always get up the very steep hills if it snows before my commute home.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Rocky58

I really believe I would have had a wreck on my way home from the dealer with RWD when I ran into a horrible snowstorm between CA and UT. As it was, I was shaking and stressed by the time I got home.

I made the CA-to-CO trip many times in the winter, back when all-season and winter tires were much less capable than they are now. It was necessary to be ready for anything, including blizzards, high winds that could blow your car off a slippery highway, glare ice, road closures in the middle of nowhere...you name it. I expect the quality of contemporary weather forecasting makes that trip much less of a crapshoot than it was back then.

[Rocky58]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I made the CA-to-CO trip many times in the winter, back when all-season and winter tires were much less capable than they are now. It was necessary to be ready for anything, including blizzards, high winds that could blow your car off a slippery highway, glare ice, road closures in the middle of nowhere...you name it. I expect the quality of contemporary weather forecasting makes that trip much less of a crapshoot than it was back then.

I think the biggest problem was I had the performance summer tires at the time which turned into hockey pucks about 100 miles from home. But the AWD is on rails going up really steep hills in the snow when other cars are spinning their wheels or on the side of the road. 😅

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Rocky58

I think the biggest problem was I had the performance summer tires at the time which turned into hockey pucks about 100 miles from home. But the AWD is on rails going up really steep hills in the snow when other cars are spinning their wheels or on the side of the road. ��

It's the tires. Yes, you had about the worst tires possible for that condition!

Let's imagine a hypothetical of zero traction. Completely bald summer performance compound tires on glare sheet ice at 0 degrees F, but worse. It would not matter if two or four tires were being powered. The vehicle would sit and spin if hypothetical traction = zero.

OTOH, on a dry, clear day a rear wheel drive vehicle on the same road with typical tires will easily propel itself up the hill.

Or, more extreme to make the point, imaging on the rear wheel drive car, you went beyond studs to some imaginary round set of spikes instead of rubber tires...you would get the car to move up the snowy hill.

The variable is not how many wheels are being powered. It's the available traction which occurs at the tires.

AWD will do better than RWD in some conditions to get the car moving, assuming the vehicle is equipped with tires that are able to have traction on winter condition roads. Being able to split the torque among four tires allows each of them to turn before exceeding their individual traction capability on a continuous snow/ice surface. Or, when the rears happen to have insufficient traction to be able to push the car, the fronts can help with pulling, reducing the demand on the rears, allowing all four to operate within their limits. But, if all four tires have insufficient traction, it matters not if they are powered.

If you happened to succeed with less than winter tires, it just means that the tires you did use had enough traction for those conditions. AWD certainly helps by splitting the torque among two more tires, as noted above, but tires are the success/failure factor in almost all cases.

The cars you see spinning their wheels or off the side of the road most likely did not plan ahead to install proper tires. Or, the conditions are so bad that even something like a Blizzak WS90 or chains, if the condition warrant, cannot grip. However, it is not unknown to have a mystified driver watch their SUV towed out of a ditch, insisting, "But, I have four wheel drive!", with no realization they never swapped their OEM all season tires for winters. The 4/All wheel drive marketing has been very effective! I've heard some who thought it made the vehicle stop better on snow!

I'm not saying AWD doesn't add value. Of course it does. It certainly helps propel the car on snow/ice (but adds nothing to needing to stop/turn for an avoidance maneuver). For very high-powered cars, the same principle of sharing the torque among four wheels maximizes the available traction to get "power to the ground" without overwhelming the rear tires in WOT conditions. Not really the case with our cars.

My point is that the tires are by far the largest factor, with AWD providing an assist. The question is the relative value of buying and carrying around AWD all year long versus installing proper tires for the season when needed. That decision will vary for each of us and the conditions we face. I would take AWD and winter tires to face a mountainous winter. just for every possible advantage. In relatively flat Michigan, I've had decades of success with rear wheel drive and studless (not so-called "performance") winter tires alone. We should have as much or more discussion and praise for tires as we do for awd systems.

[jarhead3121]

Why not get an X and then get XHP and enable/disable X when you want/need.

[240Newbie]

Originally Posted by 4Hockey4

RWD with LSD and PS4 does ok.

All about driving habits, I'm not sitting in traffic or any snow, so MT and RWD, get what fits your lifestyle.

Just ok? Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement. Reminds me of the At&t adds. lol

[Maynard]

It's a little wonky, but AWD actually DOES help some with turning as well as forward motion in the snow. I'm not really arguing with your main point - tires are clearly the central issue and this is a minor effect, not the fairytale belief of those ditch-bound morons. I'd love for us to make snow tires mandatory here in 'NewYorkistan' - certainly more relevant than limiting the size of a soda.

I find that Xdrive melds FWD and RWD behaviors quite nicely, so that the front is pulling you thru the turn similar to FWD behavior (if you don't hog on it and wash the front end out with power understeer). In the dry it is indeed 'less tossable' - this is also referred to as 'neutral handling' and can actually be a desirable state, much easier to engage a 4 wheel drift this way, especially at street-legal(ish) speeds. It is a cliché in driver schools and on track that what feels fast is actually slow, and this is certainly true for those tail-happy powerslides. All of this fits within the realm of driving feel, more than gross performance, so try them both and see what you like.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Maynard

It's a little wonky, but AWD actually DOES help some with turning as well as forward motion in the snow. I'm not really arguing with your main point - tires are clearly the central issue and this is a minor effect, not the fairytale belief of those ditch-bound morons. I'd love for us to make snow tires mandatory here in 'NewYorkistan' - certainly more relevant than limiting the size of a soda.

You are right that, under throttle, AWD does help in turns. I could have been clearer when I combined stop and turn as stop/turn to explain that when off-throttle, as when reacting to an unexpected event suddenly in your path, there is no benefit of an AWD system. It just "goes for the ride". I guess I focus more on the winter safety value of avoiding others who may be struggling on the road than the convenience of a bit more forward motion. But, yes, you are absolutely correct, sir!

[4Hockey4]

Originally Posted by 240Newbie

Just ok? Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement. Reminds me of the At&t adds. lol

It was sarcasm

Basically if its DD and up north, get AWD, but decent weather year round, RWD is the way to go. Again, really about needs, I needed RWD and MT lol

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Rocky58

I think the biggest problem was I had the performance summer tires at the time which turned into hockey pucks about 100 miles from home. But the AWD is on rails going up really steep hills in the snow when other cars are spinning their wheels or on the side of the road. 😅

Originally Posted by Sportstick

It's the tires. Yes, you had about the worst tires possible for that condition!

We should have as much or more discussion and praise for tires as we do for awd systems.

A few years ago, I had an AWD Volvo with summer performance tires on it. Two inches of wet snow had fallen around 5 AM, and I went out at 7 AM to put the car into the garage so I could mount its winter set. The car wouldn't move until I shoveled a path for it – it did spin all four tires quite nicely, though!

I think of tires as the most important parts on the car.

[cooolone2]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

While we're at it, this keeps coming up. Vehicles and powertrain systems, such as XDrive don't have or add traction. They can't. They never touch the ground. Traction is specifically at the contact patch; tires have traction. Xdrive just powers two more tires, and if they have traction, that can help get a car moving, but does nothing for stopping/turning in a winter emergency maneuver. cars.

Factually incorrect, sorry. Otherwise every single auto manufacturer who sells AWD systems would be in trouble for Fraud and False Advertising.

Glad you've been ok so far, but putting four dedicated winter tires on a rear wheel drive car will increase both traction and safety at all four corners for braking/turning far more than having XDrive on all seasons, proven in videos over and over.

One other downside of Xdrive. You can't install the mod of upfitting the M2 lower control arms, which really help improve steering responsiveness of the non-M 2 Series cars.

XDrive provides more traction just on the fact that 4 wheels are applying rotation rather than one. It's simple physics really. We can talk about contact patch and rubber specifications at various temperatures, specs, etc., it's kind of silly to say that one wheel be driven has the same traction as all four. It's counterintuitive and not realistic. Never driven a 4x4 over a Standard Diff.? Lol?

But put the two together, same speed, same tires, same road, same conditions, and the Xdrive will be able to push just a little more on all fronts. As for the additional negative camber by swapping the control arms, this can absolutely be achieved through other means, so it's not exclusive to the non-Xdrive, sorry. The negative camber is to affect under/over steering which also can be achieved through other means, If you're familiar with modifying suspensions of course. Is the control arm swap easy, yes.

Again, there really is no need to beat the dead horse, the cars are the same, slight edge to the Xdrive, but really just comes down to preference, mainly centered around whether you'd like a manual or automatic transmission. To each his own

Best Regards

[rainfall]

Less is more when it comes to sports cars. If you don't drive in snow 3 months of the year, get RWD.

I live in Pacific Northwest, where it rains 11 out of 10 days in the winter lol, in addition of having 2-10 snowy days/year. I've driven in light snow (2-3 thick inches) and had no problems. Obviously I don't abuse my luck, but no issues at all.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

Factually incorrect, sorry. Otherwise every single auto manufacturer who sells AWD systems would be in trouble for Fraud and False Advertising.

I don't think we can reasonably rely on automotive advertising to assess the validity of the technical details presented. We understand that all those Chryslers with "Corinthian leather" did not really have seats only made from the bellies of cows from the island of Corinth! To determine the truth or not of each particular claim, and whether it falls within the FTC's allowance for "puffing", would require you to share examples of suspect statements in their exact wording.

But, let's work with your theory. The cars are the same, but for the AWD system. Same bodies, same engines, same interiors, same wheels and tires. Only the presence or absence of xDrive differentiates them. As we know traction occurs at the ground, if all else is the same, xDrive must be the only difference to account for enhanced traction. So, for this enhanced traction, please identify which part of xDrive touches the ground.

[4Hockey4]

There are plenty of FWD AT that do fine in the snow also.

I learned here not to discuss pure form and fun regarding RWD and MT. Get what you want, and fits your needs, you have to make payment. lol

[cooolone2]

You take liberties... I didn't say anything about body, or interiors. Indicative f your failure to read and comprehend what's written. Your question as to which part of Xdrive touches the ground is bizarre to say the least and is childish.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I don't think we can reasonably rely on automotive advertising to assess the validity of the technical details presented. We understand that all those Chryslers with "Corinthian leather" did not really have seats only made from the bellies of cows from the island of Corinth! To determine the truth or not of each particular claim, and whether it falls within the FTC's allowance for "puffing", would require you to share examples of suspect statements in their exact wording.

But, let's work with your theory. The cars are the same, but for the AWD system. Same bodies, same engines, same interiors, same wheels and tires. Only the presence or absence of xDrive differentiates them. As we know traction occurs at the ground, if all else is the same, xDrive must be the only difference to account for enhanced traction. So, for this enhanced traction, please identify which part of xDrive touches the ground.

Is there something missing here? What's the Xdrive? What touches the ground? Lol, really...

We aren't talking about tires, as I've noted. We are talking about the difference of 4 tires receiving power to rotate, as opposed to one, or even two with LSD with "ALL" other things being equal. So whatever your mind wants to think about that contact patch on one tire touching the ground, use your calculator and multiply it by four! It's a simple as that. Or are you imying that 4x is less than 1?

Stop with your semantics... It's made me laugh enough.

Have a nice day!

[albertw]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

We are talking about the difference of 4 tires receiving power to rotate, as opposed to one, or even two with LSD with "ALL" other things being equal.

This is silly enough that I can't stop myself from commenting.

X-drive has no LSD front or rear as far as I know (I'm not interested in it so I didn't research it much), so on ice you are likely to be down to two wheels spinning and only two driving. No different from a RWD with a mechanical LSD. The eLSD on the RWD is almost as good in this situation if you know how to turn it on. If the X-drive has an eLSD then it's three to two, definitely not four to one as you claim.

I think the main advantage of X-drive is in snow. All four wheels try to cut through the snow, even if some try harder than others. With RWD the fronts which are breaking the track push the snow rather than trying to cut it.

The acceleration advantage in first gear is small enough to be marginal to most people, and the acceleration advantage while exiting a corner is relevant only on a racetrack.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

XDrive provides more traction just on the fact that 4 wheels are applying rotation rather than one. It's simple physics really. We can talk about contact patch and rubber specifications at various temperatures, specs, etc., it's kind of silly to say that one wheel be driven has the same traction as all four. It's counterintuitive and not realistic. Never driven a 4x4 over a Standard Diff.? Lol?

The primary advantage to the AWD is accelerating, especially in slippery conditions. It won't do much for you turning unless you're hammering out of a turn. However, if you hammer it too early, it will likely result in really bad understeer. In a RWD car, it will likely result in oversteer. In braking, AWD does nothing.

One can easily pilot a RWD car in typical snow conditions (i.e., 1 to 4 inches) assuming winter/snow tires and the area one lives isn't full of steep inclines. A RWD 2 series with an LSD on winter/snow tires will very likely be better in the snow than an xdrive varient on all seasons.

On summer rubber, the RWD will undoubtedly handle better in the dry and wet (above 50 degree temps). It's lights out if the RWD has an LSD.

In a 0-40mph drag race, the Xdrive will win every time assuming the RWD is on street rubber. Put slicks on a RWD model and it will likely out 60 foot the Xdrive. From a roll, the RWD will slowly walk the Xdrive assuming same mods and transmission. Xdrives have high parasitic power losses, especially as MPHs increase. On average, the Xdrive cars post ~2mph slower 1/4 mile trap speeds than the RWD models. On the dyno, the Xdrive makes around 10whp/wtq less than the RWD auto and about 20whp/wtq less than a RWD 6MT. Spinning that extra differential, two additional heavy driveshafts, and the fluid losses of the transfer case take its toll, even when the Xdrive system is pushing most or all of the power to the rear.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

You take liberties... I didn't say anything about body, or interiors. Indicative f your failure to read and comprehend what's written. Your question as to which part of Xdrive touches the ground is bizarre to say the least and is childish.

Is there something missing here? What's the Xdrive? What touches the ground? Lol, really...

We aren't talking about tires, as I've noted. We are talking about the difference of 4 tires receiving power to rotate, as opposed to one, or even two with LSD with "ALL" other things being equal. So whatever your mind wants to think about that contact patch on one tire touching the ground, use your calculator and multiply it by four! It's a simple as that. Or are you imying that 4x is less than 1?

Stop with your semantics... It's made me laugh enough.

Have a nice day!

Originally Posted by cooolone2

But put the two together, same speed, same tires, same road, same conditions, and the Xdrive will be able to push just a little more on all fronts...the cars are the same...

No liberties taken...re-read your own prior post, please. Adding "bodies" and "interiors" was just rhetoric to expand upon your very own point made about "sameness".

Not childish or bizarre...simple debate tactic to show the logical error in the suggestion that AWD adds traction. It is not the proximate cause, being an intermediary set of components upstream of where traction does or does not occur. And, yes, something is missing...the comprehension of the point.

The point is that the contribution of an AWD system for winter success is a fraction of the value of the tires. It merely enables the additional two tires, whose traction capability will be determinative. Those who have fallen prey to marketing and don't understand that can have devastating outcomes when they rely on AWD and fail to address their primary winter survival tool...their tires. This goes beyond semantics to dissuade any reader that they are better spending their money on winter tires than AWD for winter, unless they wish to do or need both and are willing to accept the downside of any AWD system the rest of the year.

Always glad to provide someone a laugh...usually therapeutic. But, I hope this is more clear and also wish you a nice day!

[B58togo]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

You take liberties... I didn't say anything about body, or interiors. Indicative f your failure to read and comprehend what's written. Your question as to which part of Xdrive touches the ground is bizarre to say the least and is childish.



Is there something missing here? What's the Xdrive? What touches the ground? Lol, really...

We aren't talking about tires, as I've noted. We are talking about the difference of 4 tires receiving power to rotate, as opposed to one, or even two with LSD with "ALL" other things being equal. So whatever your mind wants to think about that contact patch on one tire touching the ground, use your calculator and multiply it by four! It's a simple as that. Or are you imying that 4x is less than 1?

Stop with your semantics... It's made me laugh enough.

Have a nice day!

Stop burying yourself. It's seriously cringey to those of us who get what you can't seem to get.

[TrboMike]

I've only had my M240 AWD vert a few months, but frankly I'm shocked how much the front end pushes when your cranking. I assume a lot of that has to with the weight of AWD and convertible. One of my first mods was going to be getting good summer tires in a nice staggered setup, but now that I've driven the car hard theres no way I would get anything other than square tires. Staggered would just make it push more.

I'm kinda shocked how many people are saying in this thread that AWD and RWD pretty much handle the same. Theres no way a RWD with LSD would push this much.

Anyone in north NJ willing to let me beat on their RWD so I can be sure? lol

I kinda regret getting AWD and heavy convertible because of the front end plow. But I needed it for the snow around here. Other car is a big V8 RWD and I couldnt take the fear everytime there was snow in the forcast. Yes my M240 is my winter car lol.