[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

If you love the E9X cars for what they are, they're fantastic. I still want one haha.

Indeed, they are fantastic, keeping mine forever. It's the best mood-changer I've ever had in a car, as just one race up to the redline whisks many a bad day away. A great engine can transform a car.

And a supercharged S65 (and there are a lot of them, though mine's not) is an animal, if you need the extra power.



By the way, mine is silver too (I have a Silverstone exterior, literally just washed it an hour ago, and it looks great...and I'm not even a silver car kind of a guy)

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by omasou

Way back (90's) I was initially drawn to BMW b/c I could add a few packages and own a nicely configured vehicle. The E36 M3 and M2 where even better one package, maybe another option done.

I forget when but some time after the E46 M3, when I attempted to configure a new M3/M4 the options were outrageous and after clicking endless checkboxes of feature that "I" would want the price climbed so high as to make me laugh and close the web page.

I'm confused.... so you drive a G06 but the options list for the M3 scared you? Pretty sure the G06 has more options available than the M3.

The pricing argument I never understood. Adjusted for inflation, these cars are around the same price (and in some cases even cheaper) than they were 20 years ago. Complaining that BMW is offering you options is like complaining that the restaurant offered you a wine pairing with your meal. If you don't want it, don't get the extra option.

There's a reason they're called "options".... because they're optional.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Indeed, they are fantastic, keeping mine forever. It's the best mood-changer I've ever had in a car, as just one race up to the redline whisks many a bad day away. A great engine can transform a car.

And a supercharged S65 (and there are a lot of them, though mine's not) is an animal, if you need the extra power.



By the way, mine is silver too (I have a Silverstone exterior, literally just washed it an hour ago, and it looks great...and I'm not even a silver car kind of a guy)

Yeah man, I bet it's a blast. I have my Exige for that.

Love the Silverstone cars, even the F80's in Silverstone turn my crank, but it's not a color I'd normally choose either. I think it just looks fantastic on BMW's.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Yeah man, I bet it's a blast. I have my Exige for that.

Love the Silverstone cars, even the F80's in Silverstone turn my crank, but it's not a color I'd normally choose either. I think it just looks fantastic on BMW's.

Oh yeah, the Exige is Lotus making a no-compromise track weapon...one of the best ever to get the most out of one's skills.

And yes, Silverstone is a great color on BMWs, it just pops.

[F32Fleet]

A couple of things after watching this video.

#1 The Audi/BMW/Mercedes all copy each other to some degree. Audi started with the even/odd numbering of coupes and sedans.

#2 The M1 was a marketing exercise.

#3 German automakers have received hundreds of millions in EV subsidies from Berlin. That is their focus.


#4 Badge buying has always been a thing and "M" like "AMG" carries demand that is well outside the enthusiast category. People want their definition of "the best" and "M" has been modified to fill that niche.


On an aside, BMW left F1 because developing a V6 would create a conflict with their I6 marketing.

[OriginalFake]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

You're not an M-Car guy, you're a luxury sport guy. There is quite a difference. No one that has driven/enjoyed an E30 through FX anything would be happier with a G.

What a ridiculous statement to make.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by OriginalFake

What a ridiculous statement to make.

I meant no disrespect, it's just an observation. Most M-car guys are after more performance and will do with a bit less comfort to get it. Big flashy screens, increased weight, decreased feel, they aren't calling cards of M-car guys.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I meant no disrespect, it's just an observation. Most M-car guys are after more performance and will do with a bit less comfort to get it. Big flashy screens, increased weight, decreased feel, they aren't calling cards of M-car guys.

Are M5 and X3M/X5M and M8 not M car guys? Asking for a friend.

And how about Z4M40? Arguably the best non-performance M car in the current lineup and the lightest car to have an M badge somewhere on it. Absolutely love it and it’s the closest thing agility wise, and quicker even (not necessarily faster), than my e46 or e93 or f80comp. (Caveat: e46 and f80 were manuals.)

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Are M5 and X3M/X5M and M8 not M car guys? Asking for a friend.

They might be.

But if you re-read what he said, at least how I interpret it, "Big flashy screens, increased weight, decreased feel" are unfortunate side effects of these cars, not the desired things in these cars, especially the latter two. So I'm not sure what you're trying to get at exactly. Your list can include fine SUV's, they can bring smiles to their driver's faces, they can be better than the competition, sure. But if one was able to choose, would any "car guy" really choose increased weight and decreased feel? Wouldn't they prefer lighter SUV's with more feel*? I believe that was the point being made, not that car guys are limited to old gen M3's exclusively.

(*Let's not confuse tactile feedback about the limits of your tire grip through the steering wheel with a shaking steering wheel due to running over a pothole, as some people (not you that I know of) seem to jump into thinking that means. No one wants the latter.)

And we circle back to the very first post. Per previous threads with quotes from BMW heads, they can get feedback from EPS but chose not to. Some of us think that stinks.

I'm a fan of the Z4, and I read the forum daily for more news about it coming out with a manual. It'll be the last of the era I think, but even then it's already got EPS that they sadly dialed the feedback out of (on purpose).

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

They might be.

But if you re-read what he said, at least how I interpret it, "Big flashy screens, increased weight, decreased feel" are unfortunate side effects of these cars, not the desired things in these cars, especially the latter two. So I'm not sure what you're trying to get at exactly. Your list can include fine SUV's, they can bring smiles to their driver's faces, they can be better than the competition, sure. But if one was able to choose, would any "car guy" really choose increased weight and decreased feel? Wouldn't they prefer lighter SUV's with more feel*? I believe that was the point being made, not that car guys are limited to old gen M3's exclusively.

(*Let's not confuse tactile feedback about the limits of your tire grip through the steering wheel with a shaking steering wheel due to running over a pothole, as some people (not you that I know of) seem to jump into thinking that means. No one wants the latter.)

And we circle back to the very first post. Per previous threads with quotes from BMW heads, they can get feedback from EPS but chose not to. Some of us think that stinks.

I’m getting at there is more than 1 type of M “guy”. I think OP was saying the purist approach would exclude the G8x generation. But for the track the G8x would be superior, depending on the track possibly.

It’s also superior for the parents who take their 3 kids to school with a guitar and golf clubs and want to hit the racetrack on the way home. Car is enormous.

[tracer bullet]

I, for one, don't think BMW sucks or that the current cars aren't either great, or better than the competition, or both. But I do think that some of their choices aren't what I want (less feedback being kind of the primary one). I didn't think I'd keep my 1-er for so long, and I know that any new M car objectively smokes it, but jeez the steering feedback is my favorite thing and I don't believe I can come close with any new offering. Makes me sad. And it's not all simple change in technology mandating it, much of it was actually intentional. I won't say they've lost their way, but they've certainly lost some of the original fan club.

A good percent of my spare time is used up looking at what "engaging" Supra parts can transfer to the Z4 for the shifter and suspension, generally involving of course a variety of bushings. And if any company will even remotely consider tinkering with the steering software like they are willing to do with the engines.

Anyhow...

[wtwo3]

The problem is you guys are comparing modern BMW to old BMW... that's going to be a losing battle.

Instead you should be comparing modern BMW to modern Audi and modern Mercedes.

One of them offers a 500hp RWD 6MT monster which also weighs less and offers better driving feel.

And therein is the rub. This whole "BMW has lost its way" talk is so stupid to me. BMW is keeping up with the market (and in reality, crushing it by being #1). The modern car, in general, is bloated, techy with flashy screens, large, etc.... if that's the baseline for what a modern car is - that should be your comparison point to show that BMW is still offering us performance cars.

And before you guys come with the classic Porsche example. Show me how much they cost. It's not the same class of car. Saying BMW has lost its way because Porsche still makes a drivers car is like saying Porsche has lost its way because Ferrari doesn't make an SUV.... oh wait....

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

The problem is you guys are comparing modern BMW to old BMW... that's going to be a losing battle.

Instead you should be comparing modern BMW to modern Audi and modern Mercedes.

One of them offers a 500hp RWD 6MT monster which also weighs less and offers better driving feel.

And therein is the rub. This whole "BMW has lost its way" talk is so stupid to me. BMW is keeping up with the market (and in reality, crushing it by being #1). The modern car, in general, is bloated, techy with flashy screens, large, etc.... if that's the baseline for what a modern car is - that should be your comparison point to show that BMW is still offering us performance cars.

And before you guys come with the classic Porsche example. Show me how much they cost. It's not the same class of car. Saying BMW has lost its way because Porsche still makes a drivers car is like saying Porsche has lost its way because Ferrari doesn't make an SUV.... oh wait....

Solid. But do you mean 473 hp, or is there still a manual R8?

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Solid. But do you mean 473 hp, or is there still a manual R8?

Well... technically 496hp if you go by dyno figures

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/m...ne-159078.html


I should also add to that.... 500hp RWD 6MT monster that you can track on the weekends (without overheating or needing new brakes/tires after the first 2 laps) and still take your kids to school on the weekdays.... below $100k.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Well... technically 496hp if you go by dyno figures

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/m...ne-159078.html


I should also add to that.... 500hp RWD 6MT monster that you can track on the weekends (without overheating or needing new brakes/tires after the first 2 laps) and still take your kids to school on the weekdays.... below $100k.

At C&C I saw a beautiful m3 build with DG/full Fiona red, buckets, carbon pack, ceramics $100k+ manual build. Absolutely gorgeous car.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I was talking with the owner of my BMW dealership, when the first F30 models were in the showroom. He'd been with BMW since the beginning, also an enthusiast with track time. I asked him what he thought of the F30. I remember him stating the F30 showed the greatest improvements, moving from one generation to the next he'd ever witnessed.

As to marketing... think back to the introduction of the 'M', BMW Motorsport. The M1, although a fiasco, publicity was well managed by BMW, got maximum publicity and it had grabbed the public's attention.

BMW were looking for ways to capitalize on this, it was Jochen Neerspach, who headed up the Motorsport division, who suggested the M designation should be attached to a low production, high performance version of the 5-series. This was first accomplished with the M535i... the rest is history.

The M heritage... based on capitalization and marketing... back in 1979!

The history of the first M5, shows marketing had a big part to play. BMW were conscious of cost and the way the wealthy and notoriously fickle clientele would respond, if they got the specification wrong. The first M5 show car was to be discreet, very understated, even had steel wheels! The M535i was the extrovert, the M5 more subtle at launch, marketing had to get it right to capitalize on the M brand.

How different today, where 'bling' sells cars. Customers appear to want overstatement, (we see it everywhere), rather than the discreet Q-car.

I agree that marketing can be a strange thing. If we consider that the E31 M8 never existed because it was considered too heavy for a M car. I think back then the M
meant something it doesn’t anymore.
Specially with the high numbers of suv in the line up.

For the F30 i did own a F31 for 8 years it was a good commuter car the handling was ok but i could never call this the ultimate driving machine. Even on base E91 the steering feel was mile ahead the straight six had a nice soundtrack and the car felt more nimble. Since the price delta was so little i went with the newer car for reliability reason. The F3X was never really about driving pleasure i felt but more about sale volume.

https://driving.ca/features/feature-...fe603ebf0/amp/

.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Fun fact - F80 M3 is not only lighter than E92 M3 but is also far stiffer, has CF components, there was particular attention to special panels being lighter and M only... and there was no awkward marketing as everything was centered around technical discussions. It also had no subframe bushings as the subframe chassis was directly bolted to the body.

The G80 M3 got heavier, number and became FAR more luxurious... it was also introduced in Instagram posts with influencers.... the few technical IG videos didn't come until complaints from a few folks.

Take that info how you want.

I remember that the F80 specially prior to the competition package wasn’t receiving very good review. They had CF part for the earlier MY but the CF shaft didn’t make it till the end of the production cycle. I don’t recall previous generation M3 receiving such a cold welcome.

The G80 beign revealed on IG is probably more a sign of the time we are living in and a way to appeal to younger customers. It is a different marketing approach but I don’t think that it is a complete different marketing strategy like when the shift was made from E to F generation.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I’m getting at there is more than 1 type of M “guy”. I think OP was saying the purist approach would exclude the G8x generation. But for the track the G8x would be superior, depending on the track possibly.

It hasn't been proven to be superior on track for more than one lap, and on any serious track car weight is the enemy, so we will see. I'm sure techno-trash will help it out, until something with a battery makes it look stupid.

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

It’s also superior for the parents who take their 3 kids to school with a guitar and golf clubs and want to hit the racetrack on the way home. Car is enormous.

Now that's funny.

Even funnier is that no pregnancies will happen in the back of the G87, the seat is too farking small, so I guess the tub-o-lard has one redeeming quality.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

You're not an M-Car guy, you're a luxury sport guy. There is quite a difference. No one that has driven/enjoyed an E30 through FX anything would be happier with a G.

My recommendation is to not make blanket statements like that. Most people are not M-Car guys not because they don’t want or like M cars, but because they cannot afford them, or are not practical options given the price barrier.

I’d be a Porsche guy if I could afford one, but I cannot. Trust me, if I could make something like a Carrera 4S work, I’d be in paradise

[omasou]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

#4 Badge buying has always been a thing and "M" like "AMG" carries demand that is well outside the enthusiast category. People want their definition of "the best" and "M" has been modified to fill that niche.

This. M no longer means the BEST.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'm confused.... so you drive a G06 but the options list for the M3 scared you? Pretty sure the G06 has more options available than the M3.

The pricing argument I never understood. Adjusted for inflation, these cars are around the same price (and in some cases even cheaper) than they were 20 years ago. Complaining that BMW is offering you options is like complaining that the restaurant offered you a wine pairing with your meal. If you don't want it, don't get the extra option.

There's a reason they're called "options".... because they're optional.

I forget the year but it seemed like the M3/M4 were all ala cart option and no cost saving packages.

Not complaining about options, I was complaining about a decent price for a decent configuration, excluding the extra nice options like leather dashes, etc.

As for inflation. The E30 325is that I test drove @ $30K was insane. The E36M3 @$45-7 was a bargain. In the 80’s BMW was smoking crack for the prices they were asking then 90’s seem reasonable to me. Point is some years the pricing seem crazy.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Most people are not M-Car guys not because they don’t want or like M cars, but because they cannot afford them, or are not practical options given the price barrier.

I think you mean most enthusiasts. The average buyer is nothing like the small sliver of enthusiasts you see on forums like this one, and primarily want the badge for bragging rights, or personal preference (we all know that Acura/Lexus cost less to own and offer superior reliability). Those that want a sportier feel choose the M badged cars that aren't really M-cars, but offer increased performance. Only a very small percentage of BMW buyers want a true M-car, willing to sacrifice more money, a harsher ride, increased maintenance, and reduced reliability to get it.

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

I’d be a Porsche guy if I could afford one, but I cannot. Trust me, if I could make something like a Carrera 4S work, I’d be in paradise

It's common here, and weird to me, but it is what it is. I, however, do not belong to that group. I own my M2 because for the dollar it offers me more than any other car on the planet. If I find a better all-rounder, I'll buy it.